The Immanence and Glamour

[sorrell]

Paul and D.W.,
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this discussion. I never could figure out how to tell what I do so I drew some pictures. But now I have no clue how to post them. Maybe I can get some help on that today.

Lisa

[paul]

Lisa,

I'll work on this and get it posted soon.

I gotta say, your willingness to share this with us is just what this board is all about.
This is pretty valuable stuff, and that you are sharing this with us after winning best of show recently (congratulations, by the way) shows the kind of spirit and attitude you have.
I have to confess to being a pretty sensitive guy sometimes and when I read your email to me asking to post your drawing I almost got a lump in my throat. Now, I was able to control myself and didn't need a tissue or nuthin' like that, but I just had to let you know that you are one class lady. Thank you.

Sooo, all that mushy stuff aside, I'll do my best to post your drawing and study it along with the rest of our group.

An admirer,
PK

[paul]

OK,

I'm ready to try this.

This first is the drawing that Lisa has sent. I've reduced it by 50%. As original it cut off a section when I printed it. There may have been another way to do this, but unlike my bootmakin', somethings I guess, I just gotta figure out for myself.

2712.jpg

This second is the boot that started this conversation up for me once again. It's as good an example as we could have of this subject.

2713.jpg

Now to my observation. I understand that in #4, the back strap (with it's lining sewn on) is attached to the inside of the top of the boot, at the back seam, by means of the 3/4" tab, which is actually the tip of the backstrap #1. The backstrap is then folded up out of the way so as to have access to stitch the folded section of the lining to the boot as in #5. This would then be folded down, creating our pull, and then stitched to the boot, covering the rest of the back seam.
Is that right? No wonder you wanted to draw it.
I'm confused trying to write it!

This is genious! I love it! Thank you. I can't wait to try it.

More questions coming, PK

[sorrell]

Paul,
Yes, that's right. I kept trying to describe it with no luck so I finally gave up and tried to draw it. I'm glad it makes sense to you, and thanks for posting it! And thanks for the kind words...

D.W.,
I think the way I do my backstrap/pull is what enables me to make a taller one-piece boot. If you notice, I'm stopping 3" from the top when I stitch the backstrap so I'll have a pull. I could make a 15" tall boot and only have to stitch up as far as you would on a 12" boot. So my limit on how far up a backstrap I can go with a post machine is exactly the same as yours!

Lisa

[paul]

Lisa,
Thanks for the work in drawing it so clearly.

But now I'm still curious about how do you stitch the line along the quarters from your tongue around the counter and back again.
How do you do that stitch on taller tops? I really had to scrunch the tops to pass it between the post and the head.

PK

[sorrell]

Paul,
I remember seeing a Garfield cartoon one time where Garfield is walking along, and Jon asks him in what order his four legs move when he walks. Garfield thinks about that for a little bit, then says, "I may never walk again."

I've never had a problem with my tops at all when I'm stitching the counter cover to the tops. I guess I was scrunching the tops down as I worked. I'm worried now that I've thought about it, it will be an awful problem! If the tops were very stiff I can see it becoming a problem.

Lisa

[dw]

Lisa,

Those really are spectacular boots. I don't get HSN, so I hadn't seen them til now. You really ought to post more photos of your boots on the Forum. It's dead simple...I can help you or Jake can help you ...all you have to do is pin point where you're having problems. You are a very creative and accomplished bootmaker...your designs/work would be an inspiration to everyone.

Paul,

I can't describe sewing the vamp/countercover onto the top, so I'm posting a photo or two--it's not a complete set so you'll have to fill in the gaps but suffice it to say that when I'm ready to stitch, I put the boot over the post from the right-hand side (tops toward the head), bottom first and run along the edge of the vamp and CC all at once.

2714.jpg

2715.jpg

2716.jpg

2717.jpg

2718.jpg

And of course, I posted the finished boot over in The Gallery. Hope this helps a bit...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

DW,

Great pictures and great looking boots.

But it's just this part, where you wrote, "when I'm ready to stitch, I put the boot over the post from the right-hand side (tops toward the head), bottom first and run along the edge of the vamp and CC all at once", that I'm having questions about.

With a 10"or 12" top, I can see that there would not be alot of difficulty passing the tops between the post and the head, as you describe. However with a 14" or taller it's a squeeze. I just was unhappy with having to scrunch my carved tops between this area. Maybe it's just something I'll have to work on myself.
Thank you to Lisa and yourself for trying to be helpful.

PK

[dw]

Paul,

Yeah. That's the problem alright. That's why I don't offer this style in anything above 12 inches. You may recall I told you that I originally worked out this set of procedures because I, too, wanted to do tooled tops and didn't want to risk ruining the tooling by turning them. Even with 12 inch tops, if the tops are very stiif, you are gonna end up stitching about an inch, then have to stop and re-arrange your tops, stitch another inch or so, stop again...etc. It makes for a very hurky-jerky job unless you have a great eye.

I don't know a solution, though, unless you want to use a patcher. Not even stitching up the backseam in stages would help, I don't think...simply because the head is roughly 9-10 inches from the post. Let's see with a 12 inch top, the top of the tops is still 10 inches from the quarterseam...and with 14 inch tops...the math just doesn't work out.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Paul,

Oops! I guess I never did post a photo of the finished boot. Sorry. And I just went looking for the photo and can't find it. Dern! I can't believe it...maybe I never took a picture of them! Oh well, they're long gone, now...to Saudia Arabia.

You'll just have to imagine...they had a 7/8" heel and a wide round toe and the boot was a size 12 or 13. I was gonna see if I had a photo of the way I do my backseams, too, but if I don't have a pic of the finished boot...that's even more unlikely. [sigh] I can't remember everything!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Paul, Lisa, and D.W.,

I've never attempted to make this type of boot, but I've always wanted to. Just a word of Thanks for sharing your techniques! Great job!

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

I mount the vamp and the vamp liner partially on the top and then I close the tops.

Do you sew the tongues on, or just cement them before closing the tops? I couldn't tell by the photos.

Mucho Gracious!

[dw]

Jake,

The liner is fully sewn in...just one line. And trimmed to size. Then the vamp is cemented into place and all three lines are sewn around the tongue...but not at all into, or around the quarters or the quarter curve. The vamp is trimmed to size and it can then be unstuck as necessary to continue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Paul, Lisa, Jake...whoever else is interested,

Here's a shot of the way I finish the back of my "hollywood" style boots. I did pretty much the same technique on the above boot.

Not a very good photo--it was cut and blown up from a larger pic. But maybe you can see enough to get the idea. could be an option....

2719.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

Thanks for the follow-up! I want to try this type of boot one of these days.....when I find the time .

[paul]

DW,
You posted a picture of your closed top seam for this boot once before. I couldn't find it, so thank you for doing so here.
It sure is a clean look. Can't tell exactly. Is there a slight over lap there, of the piping? Do you start and stop here as you do the tongue, to deal with the junction of these components?

Lisa, DW addressed the question I had for you, concerning inching the tops around between the post and the head on 12" tops. I wanted to hear from you, as your boot featured in Shop Talk, seemed to be taller than 12".

PK

[dw]

Paul,

Actually the ends of the bead are cut as square as I can get it to the backseam. I want the ends of the bead, on each side, to butt up flush against each other when the back seam is closed.

Then I cut a little strip of the same leather as the bead is made of...'bout a half inch wide (my back strap is only 5/8" wide, so I want it narrower) and cut half moon shapes out of the center of each side, leaving a section about a quarter inch wide. That strip is rolled over the bead and cemented down and then the backstrap is mounted and sewn.

Look again, what you are seeing is that narrow section lying over the bead. I cut it that way because I make the scallop so deeply curved. If I left it half inch wide, I'd get wrinkles and bunching trying to make it conform to the deep curve of the scallop.

That's what I hate so much about some of the older boots made in this style. They tried to fold a wide backstrap over the scallop--sometimes using a curved scallop, sometimes even a pointed scallop--and ended up with a bunch of surplus army goods...and a real mess...there. I had to find a better way.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[sorrell]

Paul,
It looks like D.W. and I are putting the boots together about the same way. I stitch more of the vamp on--I go ahead and stitch to just around the curve and then I stop.

I have made two pair of 15" tall one-piece top boots. Of course, the tops on both were kangaroo. Tooled tops would be a completely different story. I have two pair of tooled one-piece tops coming up. They're both 12" tall but that was just dumb luck on my part. I'd never stopped to think about how difficult it would be to do a taller one-piece tooled top.

Lisa

[paul]

DW,
Thank you for your process for the top bead strip, or whatever we'll call it. So, that little 1/4" strip is there to cover the butted ends of your top bead, right? I get it. I also understand why it's only 1/4" wide.


Lisa,
Thank you for your reply. I will have to accept these limitations. 12" is plenty tall enough for most. I'm just curious, I guess. Anyway, I think I have just about exaused this suject for now. I look forward to seeing your posts of the boots you've got coming up. I'd be pleased to offer any assistance in posting.

Thank you once again to you and DW for educating me,
PK

[dw]

Paul,

You're welcome. Keep one thing in mind, however: If you do something similar to what Lisa is doing, you don't have to put a pull on...it's built in. Very smart.

This type of boot affords a large canvas to work with--to do inlays and such. Sewing on a side pull--especially a straddle pull--breaks up that canvas. Even if you do internal pulls the stitching that holds them to the top will be visible on the outside and not part of whatever ornamentation you are doing. Perhaps even a little unsightly.

It's clean, no doubt about it, but it has it's drawbacks too.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tom Mickel]

Hi all,
I've just finished lasting my first practice English Riding Boot (scrap leather) and mostly everything went well (not perfect but I'm a beginner) but I have a few questions that I hope that someone with more experience can answer.

I think my order of events in construction is pretty normal. I make the lined top panel, sew in the vamp lining, sew on the vamp, close the top panel and then comes my first question. I next sew in the counter but I sew it in blind.

I mean that I cement the counter in place and then marked its' location on the top panel (outside) and then stitch the counter to the top.

Is there another way to sew in the counter? I like to stitch right on the edge of the counter and sewing "blind" just doesn't do it for me.

The second question is this - I line up the counter cover and vamp and sew the side seam appropriately but it seems very touchy to get the vamp/counter cover assembly located and sewed onto the top properly. Are there any tricks that might help to make this easier to do?

Thanks everyone for a great forum - I've learned tons here.

[tomo]

Hey ya Tom,
try cutting the lining oversize to whatever degree you feel comfortable with, glue it in place and sew through from the top, then trim the lining down to the stitch line with a saddler's edge tool. If the leather is soft then a 'common' edger (page 205 in the Weaver catalogue) works better then the conventional edgers that english saddlers use (usually made by Dixons et al). Also if you pull the piece you're trimming off, you can get seriously close to the stitch line.
I've only mentioned Weaver's because their catalogue is here in front of me and you may have one.
More power to y'awl.
T.

[dearbone]

Hello everyone,

I was visiting a friend in Midland Ontario last weekend for thanksgiving and a short getaway for me form my shop and be in someone Else's shop and good collection of books on leather,and boot and shoes and i saw two pairs of well made boots that i thought i will share with you here.

The half bellows tongue field boots are made(stamped) "Maxwell of Piccadilly London W" A very well made boot of thick veg tan leather,not fully lined on the shaft,mostly butted sewn and the back strap looks like it is machine sewn,but what kind?for such an upright standing boot with no sign of wrinkles on the shaft as an indication that it might not have been sewn on a post or an arm machine,There is a white string loop is sewn to lining close to the top of the boots,Does any one know what they are for?I pulled one over the boot in the picture, Any feed back about the company or comments on the boots is appreciated.

The last boots are Lobb made.

11675.jpg

11676.jpg

11677.jpg

Nasser

[tmattimore]

Nasser
It is for the buttons on your jodphurs to keep them from riding up out of the boot top. The back straps were sewn with an on/off the arm machine.
Tom

[janne_melkersson]

Nasser,
the boots are simply beautiful. The machine you ask about is an old Singer heavy duty machine who could do both zig zag and straight seams. It is an long free arm and you sit infront of the end of the arm and there is a little wheel on the right side where you can take it stitch by stitch. I was the proud owner of one some 15 years ago. Man, how I miss it!

Maxwell of Pickadilly is one of the old famous West End companies and they where mostly know for their boots. I don't think they are on their own anymore if I remeber right another west End company bought them