The Immanence and Glamour

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#26 Post by das »

Marc,

I'll toss out my 2 cents worth. On a scale of 1-10--10 being dead-nuts authentic top boots for 1803, they're maybe a 4 or 5.

1) The leather's not at all convincing-looking [looks like chrome].

2) The fit is pretty bad around the ankle,and leg etc., but Mr. Crowe refused to be measured or traced, etc.

3) I Don't recall black tops at that late a date, and the tops are too shallow for 1803.

4) The low counter and angled side-seam are a good detail for the period, but the side seam is a bit too far forward to be convincing.

5) The tongue isn't very close in shape or height--too wide and not the right shape. Looks more like 1970s fashion boots.

6) The rubber heel is unforgivable, a bit too high, and looks too short front to back; and who knows how the sole's attached, but it's too thick for that date as well.

They are better than cheap "English" riding boots with brown tops stuck on, which is what I see on the big screen too often.
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#27 Post by marc »

Okie dokie. Thanks. Still no idea who actually made them?

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#28 Post by dw »

My question...coming from the ignorant but very well washed, thank you...is whether boots of that sort were common aboard ship or even part of the Naval officers uniform. A&E has just done several new Horatio Hornblower episodes and all the officers from Sir Edward Pellew (Admiral) to Captain, Hornblower, wear shoes. Personally, I'f hate to be wearing heavy, hard to get off, boots if there were any chance of ending up in the drink. Shoes do seem more practical.

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#29 Post by petemonahan »

DW

Yer right! Image Shoes it was. Royal Navy dress regs specified buckle shoes for officers (men usuually barefoot) but presumably captains and certainly movie stars get to wear what they want. Maybe Al knows what real "sea boots" looked like. I don't, but a pair of LOOSE top boots would seem sensible.

'Course they mostly couldn't swim anyway - Lucky Jack Aubry was an exception - so shoes or boots would be a moot point if ya went overside. Image

Thanks for the detailed analysis, M. Sagudo. (Guilty! I turn cheap "English riding boots" into fake topboots for the poorer re-enactors.)

Your humble and Obedient
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#30 Post by marc »

Well, there's that whole walking on water thing if he went over the side... or was that Hornblower?

I'm afraid I have no answer about whether as ship's master would have the leeway to wear boots as it's not one of my periods. All I know is what I see in the movies and pick up from Al Image Seriously, when I see something in the movies, I tend to just assume it's wrong, but with all the stuff that was "pretty close" for this movie, I was curious about the boots. Now I know they are so wrong they drag down the rest of the movie Image

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#31 Post by cmw »

Marc

Very few movies are true to history as you have stated. In the newest King Arthur they looked away from every little piece of advice an archiologist gave them. In the end he just drank their beer and played with the swords. Just do what he did, call them ARRRRSSES(as he says) and have a beer or two or ...................

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#32 Post by other V. »

Even if we find the mentioned boots a bit funny for naval accoutrement, it still doesn't beat Gladiator with his Doc Martens boots on all the advertising posters for that movie. When I think of all the millions of $$$ pumped into hi tech movie simulation but apparently not even fife cents worth of costume research, it makes me giggle.
It is almost as bad as poor Cinderella being forced by narrative missinterpretation to get her shoes from a glass blower just because of some french typo ("verre" instead of "vair" wich are pronouced exactly the same way, but one meaning glass, the other meaning the highly praised or priced fur of a squirrel).

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#33 Post by petemonahan »

Other V.

Don't let us get started on historical atrocities committed by the movie industry! Image It's too depressing.

Master & Commander had all the chances they neeeded: proper costuming, worn incorrectly, proper cooperage made up but not shown, even a period hourglass which they paid a mint for and then replaced (knowingly)with an incorrect one. If you want the full list, check the YahooWarof1812 discusion list.

Sadly - for we historical types - it's about selling seats and popcorn, not about history. Nice to know that a few people still care, though. Image

Cheers
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#34 Post by other V. »

Movies are like the theatre, a play, but with much more technical toys and people involved. My understanding of movies is that it is an entertainment industry, and not a historical research program. Seen under this angle I can even accept costumes made out of sacks and sneakers on the feet for a medieval play, why not. After all it just comes down to the compromise of historically correct versus narratively acceptable.

Like everything else, superiour quality is recognisable by the details. Anything properly finished and buffed to the best there can be, will show the difference between a high end product and cheap glossed over imitation with lots of shiny things to distract.

I only know that the above-mentioned movie is about seamen, ships swashbuckling and I guess buckets of haemoglobin, (or was it haemogoblins ;O) so who cares about boots, when there's blood, adventure and cool effects? Well, I do and others do so too, but few really seem to know.

But still ... roman Gladiators with DocMartens, Seamen in Cavalryboots....and why not the seven dwarfs in Venetian choppines, or Cleopatra in ski-boots while we're at it....or Frankestein in Ballerinas and a tutu ;O)?

Peter, I read Terry Pratchett's "Moving pictures", if you know a bit about the dream factories, then you will certainly have a real good time reading it too.

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#35 Post by dw »

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Timeline. It was a pretty good book by Michael Crickton. At least, I liked it...being a Scifi buff. Now an entertaining movie just in time for the holidays. But in one of the opening scenes, just after they arrive in 14th century France, they are being chased by mounted horsemen, at least one of whom is wearing boots with heels. [sigh] Sometimes knowledge can be a terrible thing. Image

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#36 Post by marc »

There's a reason that I (at least) haven't mentioned Timeline.

Boots with heels are the least of the flaws with that movie. As a completely non-historical fantasy adventure film Timeline is fine and fun and it's unfortuntate that it shares a title and a few plot points with a really interesting, generally well researched novel. Note that the -book- had a couple of historical flaws as well, mostly having to do with clothing [to quote: "Stern was handed shoes, which looked like leather slippers with pointed toes, except they buckled. Like court jester's shoes, he thought unhappily. The grandmotherly woman smiled: "Don't worry, they have air soles built in, just like your Nikes.""]

It might have helped if either the director or producer had bothered to READ the book (since they missed the point altogether that people in the Middle Ages weren't stupid, dirty, and smelly].

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#37 Post by dw »

Marc,

Glad to hear you thought the book was "well researched." That's "your" period, if I'm not mistaken. Makes me want to go back and read it again...not until I've re-read (and seen) Return of the King, however. Image

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#38 Post by tmattimore »

So now youse guy's have got me into trouble again. About a year ago I purchased some cutting dies on ebay and in the box were a large number of paper patterns brass bound for various types of boots and shoe parts. Included were some for this type of boot in womens sizes four to eight. Just the shaft with no vamps or counters. My hired hand was rooting around and found them and asked what they were for so I explained them to him and told him to look on this site for a picture, he said I am going to make a pair of sheep skin boots how do we do it. So we figured out where the long heel was and scaled the pattern up to his size 15 aa. Lo and behold it worked, he mckayed a leather mid sole on them and glued a vibram sole on and is happy as a pig in a hog waller. The problem is he also found some photos a freind took of some currasier boots in paris and now I have to make some for real. What is a po boy to do? I am sure it will be fun to try but I will ask for advice when we start them.
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#39 Post by tmick »

Here's another question from a rube beginner. Can I reliably and with good results use a patcher like a Singer 29K72 to sew on the back strap on equestrian boots?
I've been trying to find a machine to do this and a high post Pfaff would be great but seems to be very expensive.
Thanks for you comments in advance.
Tom Mickel
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#40 Post by andrea »

re: shoes in the movies

On the 1st Hornblower DVD there's a good "making of" piece in which Ioan Gruffudd talks about the shoes he was made to wear. It was, apparently, his first experience in heels and he summed it up by saying "See the mighty Hornblower, running like a girl!"

On the other hand...I may be one of only three people who saw the movie "Vatel" and I noticed some of the shoes - I thought they were wonderful.
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#41 Post by paul »

I’m going to try this again. Yesterday, I had this long post prepared and went to check on the procedures to insert an image, and lost the whole thing. My wife told me I should use Word and cut and paste, but listening to advise like that from her is like me tell her to be careful with a knife. It’s good advise but we've been married too long, ‘what are ya gonna do?’ Well, I've done as she suggested this time.



So, as you remember, DW started this new discussion because we didn't have a place for the Tejas or Hollywood style. And, of course, to have a place for discussion of the period riding, sailing and acting boots, from which the style is taken. I had taken an order for a Tejas and had questions about it’s construction. DW has been really generous with his methods and order of operations, and I’ve completed the pair in question. Here they are. (I hope it’s OK with our humble servants and administrators to post them here)


2652.jpg




They are 14” tops with a filigreed collar. I’ve carved the family crest and Pino Noir grapes and leaves into tooling kip. The swivel knife I used was a new one I got from Peter Main, an incredible leather artist from Australia. The angle on the blade, rather than the usual 30 degrees, is more like 60 degrees, which allows for a wider cut for modeling, without going so deep. Very important on 2 ounces leather, eh?

The foot is GH French Calf (read Freedom Calf if you've still got a hang up about all that). The sole and heel are as I described earlier in the discussion on insoles, Vibram #269 with a crepe base. He’s expecting to do a lot of walking in them he tells me.

They’re laced up the back and around the top with Kangaroo. I thought I’d eliminate the squeeze at the post machine by lacing the back, but it still had to be closed at the quarters. That was a little traumatic. The carving got a little scrunched.

I had to send them to him for a special occasion Moday night, and I was nervous about that. But the report from him was good, which made for a good night sleep.

Thanks to all of you for your unspoken support.

PK
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#42 Post by dw »

Paul,

Your boots turned out spectacular! Good on you!

The tops look square too. No worries there. And although you can't see the line of the tops from the side I bet the back turned out straight...didn't that draft move around to the sides, like I said it would?

Anyway...you've a right to be proud...very nice.

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#43 Post by jake »

Paul,

Good-lookin' boots! I've never made a pair of these, but I'm sure they ain't easy to slap together (are any of them easy?). Image

I've been trying for the past two years to get back to D.W.'s place for a course on the Tejas-styled boot. I think they're "killer" looking, and open up so much more room for fancy inlays.

Anyway, good job and Thanks for sharing them with us!
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#44 Post by paul »

Hey Jake,

I would say that if yer accustomed to Deedubyas palaberatin', you could figure it out with a conversation over the phone. As ya say, it's a bit more 'n slappin', but yer a bright boy!

Anyway thank you for the comments.

PK
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#45 Post by jake »

Paul,

You know, I probably could, but let's keep that to ourselves. It's my excuse to my wife for letting me go see Dee Dubb again.

He does do a lot of palaberatin', don't he? No wonder his lips are blue! I bet they're callused on the inside, don't you?
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#46 Post by paul »

I hope nobody minds me resurrecting this subjet thread again.

Lisa, your boots are inspiring! WOW! I've gone back to that issue of Shop Talk several times now, to look at your boots shown there. Congratulations on the coverage all around also. And good luck with your gallery.

My question now comes out of my experience with the Tejas boots I just finished. My initial conversation with DW, made it clear that I was going to have trouble stitching the vamps and quarters all around with a boot taller than 10" on a post machine. That's why I laced mine up the back so I could get to the quarters, as the boot was 14" high. As it was, the boots were a little traumitized being stuffed though the throat area even with the backs unstitched. So now I asking about how did you do such a beautiful job closing those at that seam, as they seem that some of yours are that high?
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#47 Post by dw »

Paul,

12"

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#48 Post by sorrell »

Paul,
I'm sorry, because I'm going to sound unhelpful here, but evidently D.W. and I do things REALLY differently on this style of boots because I don't understand your question.

I've made one-piece tops up to 15" tall and the height was the least of my problems. I can't figure out how lacing the backseam would help because doesn't the back seam have to be together before you can mount the counter and counter cover? And I don't understand the reference to the boots "being stuffed through the throat area." I stitch the back seam with the boots right side out so I never have to turn the boots.

I'd love to continue discussing this with you. Maybe there's an easier way to do things that I wasn't smart enough to think of!

And back to my backseam...I stitch the backseam so that the seam is open down the back of the boot on the outside. I cover that seam with the backstrap. I do any stitching that needs to be done on the backstrap BEFORE I put it on the boot, including stitching the beading. I glue the backstrap up the back of the boot over the back seam. When I stitch it, I stitch "in the ditch" (fabric sewing term) between the beading and the backstrap. If you stay very close to the edge of the strap and match your thread to the beading color the stitching disappears down into the "ditch" there. You of course still want to try to keep the stitches even, but if one or two are uneven at least they aren't doubling as decorative stitching and don't show.

When I stitch this backseam and backstrap I have the vamps and vamp liners on but not the counters or counter covers. I do that last.

And keep in mind that no one ever taught me how to build this style of boot. I figured out my method myself and there may be a much better way.

Lisa
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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#49 Post by dw »

Lisa, Paul,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I was waiting to see if you had some way of doing it that I was too dense to have seen. Like you, no one taught me how to make this style of boot. Mike Ives used to make a one piece top boot but he got around all the difficulties by lacing it up the side. But as much as I love and admire a finely done lace job, I don't care for it on the side of a boot.

From your description we do things pretty much the same. I use a sewn-in counter (heel stiffener) which differs from the way that Luchesse made the states boots if I recall. But I am amazed that you do tops that high. I use a post machine to sew up the backstay and I have enough difficulty sewing a neat, clean line while trying to scrunch the top over the post that I simply don't offer the boot in heights above 12 inches. I must be missing something but I can't stand the job that a patcher does and I hate to see the results when I'm fighting that tall top. Also the taller top bumps up against the head of the machine while I'm sewing the vamp/counter/counter cover lines. So again I'm fighting the machine a little even with a 12" top. Like a lot of men (I suppose) and older men especially, I lose accuracy in stitch placement if I slow down too much (too fast and I lose it as well) So trying to place the stitches one at a time while carefully working my tops over the post becomes almost self-defeating.

I hope you won't mind me asking you to fill in the gaps in my knowledge/techniques. If you see a way to make my life easier, please tell me. And if I can help you with any insight...minor or major...I'll be glad to.

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Re: The Immanence and Glamour

#50 Post by paul »

Lisa,

Thank you for adding to the conversation about how you do these.

Yes, it was necessary to close the back seam before installing the counter and cover, however, so that I might have easier access to the seam at the quarters, I only closed the back seam with the lacing about 3" or so, and then came back and finished the job later. I thought this would facilitate passing the tops between the needle at the post and head of the machine. (Thanks DW, for the reference to that part of the body of the machine, as the head.)

" When I stitch this backseam and backstrap I have the vamps and vamp liners on but not the counters or counter covers. I do that last."

I guess the sequece is the question here.

It looks like you have an inverted seam where the vamp and counter cover combine. Is that right? When do you do that? And which machine are you using on this?

I get it about the back strap. I really like what you did. That was the first thing that caught my eye. I see that the pull loop comes up from the top seam and attaches a few inches lower on the back seam, how did you cover the area in between, that is not coverd by the loop? Is that a separate strap section? (It's really hard to know how to ask some questions, isn't it?)

I really appreciate that you and DW are willing to discuss this boot style, when you have both invested time and effort into figureing these things out for yourself. I hope I don't seem like I'm being lazy and not trying to figure it out for myself.

I want to do taller ones of this style and I can see it will take some inovation.

PK
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