The Crispin Colloquy

Kevin,

A heavier-than-the-vamp top leather will put a slouch in the ankle area, due to the disparity in thickness and weight.
That's the obvious part.

Whereas the purpose of the stays is to reinforce the ankle area such that it supports the tops in the area so it won't slouch.

My stay pattern is probably only about a quarter of the surface of the top panel, and since it's situated at the bottom of the top panel, and between the panel and panel liner, it actually serves to stiffen (only slighly) the ankle area rather than add any weight.

However truth be told, when I use a quality calf top leather and liner, front stays are unnecessary. As are back stays in that case, for the heel slide will serve.

An exception to all that for myself, is when I've got alot of inlay on the tops or large collars, making the panels top heavy.

I do not believe there should be any need to adjust your pattern for stays.

Paul

So after my recent post of boots, I had a few questions on the best way to take pictures of boots.

Do people usually take pictures with the last in the boot?

Do they put anything in the tops to keep them spread open during the pictures? I have not stretched the tops yet, so maybe after they are stretched they stay in a more perfect form better.

Terry

Terry,

So, look at my most recent post in the Gallery. No lasts, nothing to keep tops "spread open."

If the boot won't hold its shape without the last or stuffing in the tops, it isn't finished.

You need to tree your tops and then be extra careful when you do the finishing work.

just my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Terry,

I've concluded that each boot wants it's own support. I want them to look comfortable and show their own lines.
For most I leave the last in and go with the tops as they come off of the Mallory. I want to see 'comfort texture and grain' on my tops especially. I may manually manipulate a top edge a little bit, or push out a bit in the pass line area. Proof shots are helpful.

Most of the time cedar boot trees skew the highlights.

It's a process. :-)

Paul

DW and Paul,

Thanks for the responses.

The reason why I asked was that I believe the tops on my latest boots would keep real good form after being stretched, but not the vamps.

I still have plans to stretch the tops as soon as I get a couple hours to make a boot stretcher, so I will know more then. With the stays and all the stitching, the uppers look like they should hold form.

Even when I first took the botos off the lasts, the vamps did not hold good form. The fitter pair I made kept the form really well.

I would be interested in any advice.

It's possible I did not leave them on the last as long as I should since I was in a real rush to make them. I did soak them for several hours before lasting and I thought they were dry on the last, but I only left them on the last for about 3 days.

I also know the leather is considerably lighter and more "glovey" than the fitter pair. Not quite as thin as kangaroo, but definitely a dress weight.

Terry

I Guess this is a good area for this question:

Given I have very large feet (18) should I basically scale up all the components of my shoes?
e.g. Heavier thread, Thicker uppers, insoles, outsoles? Im making a pair now and the uppers are about 3ounces. Maybe 4 tops. Is that to thin?

Thanks,
Cody

farmerfalconer wrote:I Guess this is a good area for this question:

Given I have very large feet (18) should I basically scale up all the components of my shoes?
e.g. Heavier thread, Thicker uppers, insoles, outsoles? Im making a pair now and the uppers are about 3ounces. Maybe 4 tops. Is that to thin?

Thanks,
Cody

I'd say no. If you're designing/patterning off of your lasts and a mean forme, some components such as heel stifffeners will scale up in size, of course. But I think the uppers, at 3 ounce, are just about right for all men's dress shoes...could even go a little thinner with some high end kangaroo or calf. I also tend to think that threads and so forth are more related to the leathers than the size of the foot.

Great! Thank you, this means I dont have to start over

I thought this might be interesting to some...I take a few mail orders both for shoes and boots. People I will probably never see or meet.

One of the things I have always thought unfortunate is that I can not get an accurate pedograph or footprint.

Some years ago, I ran across some German manufactured paper that would capture an imprint of a damp foot. It was called goldenrod paper.

Not so long ago, I started getting a catalogue from Educational Innovations and in it they had goldenrod paper.

The trick is to moisten the bottom of the foot with a base solution...I have done some experimentation with 1/2 teas. of baking soda to 1 cup of water...and simply step onto the paper. ( A weaker solution might work too) Use a sponge for moistening the foot and avoid pooling or excess--you just need the foot damp.

Here are the results--a good replacement for a pedograph or a makeshift for doing mail order fittings:

Dee-Dubb,

Good find! We used to use that method in the early nineties with Randy Merrell, until "Goldenrod" paper went away. Glad you found some.

DW,

Neat. Never seen that before. Is the imprint of the bare foot, or socks-on? What use is it without an accompanying tracing?

homeboy wrote:Dee-Dubb,

Good find! We used to use that method in the early nineties with Randy Merrell, until "Goldenrod" paper went away. Glad you found some.

Jake,

Might have been about that time I first saw it. Seems like longer but...time gets away from you if you're not looking.

das wrote:DW,

Neat. Never seen that before. Is the imprint of the bare foot, or socks-on? What use is it without an accompanying tracing?

Al,

I bought two packets (hundred sheets altogether?) but really hadn't had an opportunity to play with them until just the other day. Main thing was to work out a recipe for the base solution because they don't give you any specifics in that regard on the cover/instruction sheet.

But yes, of course, you're correct...you can...you need to do a tracing at the same time you're printing.

And I did it barefooted...I think you'd almost have to unless you wanted wet socks and that would be hard to control, I suspect.

I'm not throwing out my pedograph, mind you, but if you're doing mail order this is a good solution.

And actually, not all pedographs are created equal. Sometime after I got mine, the company that made them switched to a cross-hatched latex sheet...instead of plain/smooth...and the resulting prints come out almost indecipherable. Truth to tell, if I had to rely on the cross-hatched pedographs I'd use the goldenrod paper all the time. And just for perspective, I would argue that that an accurate footprint is one of the most important pieces of information I collect. I'd rather do without the tracing than the footprint.

dw wrote: And actually, not all pedographs are created equal. Sometime after I got mine, the company that made them switched to a cross-hatched latex sheet...instead of plain/smooth...and the resulting prints come out almost indecipherable. Truth to tell, if I had to rely on the cross-hatched pedographs I'd use the goldenrod paper all the time. And just for perspective, I would argue that that an accurate footprint is one of the most important pieces of information I collect. I'd rather do without the tracing than the footprint.

Dee-Dubb,

As you saw recently, I've got one of the new ones (cross-hatched). I hate it! I may order some "goldenrod". Thanks once again for the "find".

Adios, Jake

homeboy wrote:
Dee-Dubb,

As you saw recently, I've got one of the new ones (cross-hatched). I hate it! I may order some "goldenrod". Thanks once again for the "find".

Adios, Jake

You might also consider making one. I've heard tell that you can make them of aluminum screen door components and some medical latex...which you probably have easy access to.

As I say "I've heard tell" but I've never actually seen one that was homemade. I'd be interested in the process and the results.

dw wrote:

homeboy wrote:
Dee-Dubb,

As you saw recently, I've got one of the new ones (cross-hatched). I hate it! I may order some "goldenrod". Thanks once again for the "find".

Adios, Jake

You might also consider making one. I've heard tell that you can make them of aluminum screen door components and some medical latex...which you probably have easy access to.

As I say "I've heard tell" but I've never actually seen one that was homemade. I'd be interested in the process and the results.

I made one. It is pretty easy -- buy a length of screen door aluminum framing, some corner connectors, some spline that holds the rubber in the aluminum framing, and some rubber sheeting. Cut the framing with a hacksaw to the desired dimensions, connect into a rectangular shape, cut the rubber sheeting to size, and insert the rubber sheeting into the framing with the spline. It can be a little tricky to get the rubber sheeting fairly tight and flat across the width and length of the frame, but a bit of unevenness around the perimeter is no big crisis. I'm not home, so I don't have a pic of my homemade version handy, but I would be happy to post one in 10 days or so if folks are interested. Perhaps the biggest challenge is finding rubber sheeting; I think I ordered mine from an industrial supply company.

Lance

lancepryor wrote:
I made one. It is pretty easy -- buy a length of screen door aluminum framing, some corner connectors, some spline that holds the rubber in the aluminum framing, and some rubber sheeting. Cut the framing with a hacksaw to the desired dimensions, connect into a rectangular shape, cut the rubber sheeting to size, and insert the rubber sheeting into the framing with the spline. It can be a little tricky to get the rubber sheeting fairly tight and flat across the width and length of the frame, but a bit of unevenness around the perimeter is no big crisis. I'm not home, so I don't have a pic of my homemade version handy, but I would be happy to post one in 10 days or so if folks are interested. Perhaps the biggest challenge is finding rubber sheeting; I think I ordered mine from an industrial supply company.

Lance

I'm interested! Thanks.

Lance described mine to a "T". Carl Lichte was making them about 15 years ago, with 1/32" black neoprene rubber sheeting. I've been using mine ever since, the neoprene is holding up fine. I made another one (clone) and used Latex "dental dam" sheets--that stuff rotted-out in less than a year.

Goldenrod paper ------"out of stock" at the moment!

homeboy wrote:Goldenrod paper ------"out of stock" at the moment!

They may be the leader in educational materials, however, so they might get it back in fairly fast. did they give you a "best guess" as to when it would be back in stock?

Looks like you're might gonna have to make you a pedograph. Good instructions from Lance and Al.

Dee-Dubb,

I was "online". Didn't talk to anyone. Yeap! May have to build myself one.

Take care!

Jake, all,

After some checking around I found out that most office supply stores and Kinkos carry Astrobrights Galaxy Gold made by Wausau and I believe it comes in several sizes and weights.

As one of the websites suggested, take a little moist baking soda with you to the office supply store and ask if you can test a sheet.

DW:

Thanks for that.

I found this somewhere online:
Before you buy this paper at a local office supply, be aware there are two types of this ‘same’ paper.
One is PH reactive and the other is NOT. If the paper says ‘Acid Free’ or ‘Sans Acid’, it is made by
the newer process and is NOT PH Reactive. But that is not bad, as there are fun Magic tricks you can
do using two identical looking papers. And, Goldenrod paper may be Acid Free, but not marked as such,
thus the need to test it before you buy.
To test the paper or poster board before you buy it: take a plastic pipette or eye dropper with only
a few drops of household ammonia with you. The PH reactive paper is very reactive and just the
fumes of the ammonia, will make it instantly turn BLOOD RED
The paper will not be harmed, as it will return back to its Goldenrod color as the ammonia vaporizes
off. Just do not get the paper wet, or else you buy it.

So, your tip to try it before buying is good advice.

Lance

lancepryor wrote:DW:

Thanks for that.

I found this somewhere online:
Before you buy this paper at a local office supply, be aware there are two types of this ‘same’ paper.
One is PH reactive and the other is NOT. If the paper says ‘Acid Free’ or ‘Sans Acid’, it is made by
the newer process and is NOT PH Reactive. But that is not bad, as there are fun Magic tricks you can
do using two identical looking papers. And, Goldenrod paper may be Acid Free, but not marked as such,
thus the need to test it before you buy.
To test the paper or poster board before you buy it: take a plastic pipette or eye dropper with only
a few drops of household ammonia with you. The PH reactive paper is very reactive and just the
fumes of the ammonia, will make it instantly turn BLOOD RED
The paper will not be harmed, as it will return back to its Goldenrod color as the ammonia vaporizes
off. Just do not get the paper wet, or else you buy it.

So, your tip to try it before buying is good advice.

Lance

Lance,

Interesting. I looked at about five "science" related sites this morning and none made that distinction. But I did see acid free goldenrod listed on Amazon.

From what you were able to determine...will both the acid free and the non-acid free paper react to the base solution?

DW:

I am not sure, the excerpt I copied & pasted above is slightly confusing....

I would think an 'acid free' paper would not change color, since the baking soda solution is a 'basic' solution (i.e. the opposite of acidic), and it is the presence of this base solution that causes the paper color to change. The paper is 'acidic' in its normal state, so I don't know if an 'acid free' paper could be acidic(?).

I did find another reference to a Springhill brand goldenrod paper (made by International Paper) which may work. Here is the reason the paper works: "Some brands of goldenrod paper contain the dye C.I. Direct Yellow 4. This dye is an acid-base indicator and, as such, is yellow in its acid form and red in its base form."

Probably just need to buy some and try it out.

Lance

dw wrote: After some checking around I found out that most office supply stores and Kinkos carry Astrobrights Galaxy Gold made by Wausau and I believe it comes in several sizes and weights.

As one of the websites suggested, take a little moist baking soda with you to the office supply store and ask if you can test a sheet.

A little jar containing a cotton ball soaked in ammonia would work better: the fumes would change the color of the indicator paper, but it would change back as the ammonia dispersed.

The Wausau Papers paper that changes color is Astrobrights Galaxy Gold WAAB57A. Any other paper from them in that color is made using a different dye and an acid-free process.

Warning, geekery to follow:

It is possible to make some paper with similar color-changing properties yourself, if you want to experiment a little. The spice, turmeric, contains a pigment known as xanthophylls, which gives it a yellow color. It also contains carotene, which is reddish orange. When turmeric comes in contact with a base, the carotene pigment gets more active than the xanthophylls and it turns red. When it comes in contact with an acid, it turns back to yellow.

Boil 2 cups of water in a saucepan and remove from heat. Let cool for five minutes and add 4 tbsp of turmeric (a bright yellow spice used in Indian cooking, available at any grocery store). Stir. The water will turn yellow, but the turmeric powder will not dissolve.

Pour the turmeric solution into a glass or plastic pan. Lay a piece of ordinary printer paper on top of the solution and press it into the liquid with a spoon or gloved fingers (unless you want bright yellow fingers!).

Remove the paper from the turmeric solution hang to dry. As it dries, you may see some turmeric powder on the surface of the paper. Tap or brush the excess powder off the dry paper.

The paper will be pale yellow, but will change to a pale red-orange if exposed to a base, such as a solution of baking soda or some regular household ammonia. It will change back to yellow if you expose it to an acid, like vinegar or lemon juice.

These colors aren't anywhere near as intense as the real thing, but it's cheap and easy to play with. Yes, I am a science-geek.