miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#51 Post by Tex Robin »

Al,

Oh yeah, I have a bad stomach and usually have the Chicken Fried Steak.

And I *do* believe I was born knowing some of this stuff. Abilities and talents are inherited to a certain extent. I never had any trouble learning to make boots. It came easy to me. The most of my ancestors on my Father's side are natural musicians and on my Mother's side they couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. So maybe some *are* born knowing this stuff! Image...TR
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#52 Post by Tex Robin »

Al,
He used a channeler. None of that gemming stuff for him. I repaired a lot of his boots in the 70s and 80s, but there are only a few of them left now. He made a very heavy boot and the inseaming was as good as the rest of his boot. If not noted for anything else their ruggedness was hard to beat..TR
User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#53 Post by gcunning »

I'm back home from L.A. - No good Tex mex food out there mon.
Tex my next side seem I may do by hand. The only reason is I'm scared to death of the machine eating something its not supposed to.

Jake on your counter matching up don't you use an awl to match each side up. Then take a stitch to set it. Carl has showed me that way. He said he did not do it for sometime but finally tried it and liked it. I stand to be corrected but I believe he got that idea from D.W.
Lisa Sorrell

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#54 Post by Lisa Sorrell »

I'm with Tex. Maybe we were born to be bootmakers. I've always felt like when I discovered bootmaking, it was like figuring out what I WAS, not what I wanted to be. Unfortunately, that didn't mean that my boots have been perfect from the beginning! Image

I worked in a shop with a Goodyear inseaming machine. We had a channeler that channeled the insole especially for the inseamer. I used the channeler (nice) but I never would try the inseamer. He tried several times to get me to stitch with it, but I told him I was afraid I'd like it. I knew I'd never be able to justify one, and I didn't want to get used to using it.

Lisa
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#55 Post by jake »

Gary,

Yes sir! I was taught by D.W. to do it that way. Sure makes life prettier and easier!

I was just courious how Tex approached it.
shane
2
2
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:05 pm
Full Name: shane deeter
Location: La Sal, Utah, USA
Been Liked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#56 Post by shane »

To everyone
Thanks for your input. It doesn't sound like I am doing anything different than most of you. I have noticed that after I pull the last, the grinning is less. I guess I just have to grin and bear the grinning and bareing.

Grinning and bearing now.
Shane
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#57 Post by dw »

All,

My ten cents worth...and I'm gonna do it in one long post rather than a bunch of short ones.

I hand sew about three inches of each side seam for all the reasons both Jake and Al mentioned---precision, strength, control, etc.. I am an absolute fanatic about lining up the vamp and counter cover junction. I will tear a boot apart and hand sew the whole side seam rather than let a boot go out that way. Or with too puffy a side welt, either.

Why? Because in the end, if the only ones we are making boots for are customers who can't see or tell the difference when the edges don't match, then we are letting ourselves and our work be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. We *do* make boot for other bootmakers...if only the dead one's and the old guys that taught us (in your case, that's me, Jake Image )--if only for their memory or the pride they might take in us if they could only see us now.

But we also make boots for other reasons...if it's not a process that we enjoy at every level--the creativity, the feel of the leather, the simple joy of working with our hands at something tangibly productive, as well as the pride and sense of accomplishment in bringing together such a wide assortment of techniques and materials into an object of beauty and functionality; if it's not a process that we enjoy...even in the talking about it, then why in the world pursue it at all? Anyone who thinks they can make a better living making boot than they could working at the local Toyota plant is living in a dream world.

I would like to learn to hand sew outsoles. I would like to learn to do it for several reasons...the pride in accomplishment, the connection to traditional techniques and the old masters, and to add another dimension to my work--not just in terms of technique but also in terms of...ahem!...*money*!

The simple fact is that our natural customers are folks who have a lot of money or a lot of physical need. Not the ordinary guy on the street. And the guy with a lot of money, sooner or later, if he's smart enough to keep that money, is gonna start developing a taste for refined work and all the things that make a hand made boot or a hand made violin, for that matter, worth more than one bought off the shelf. In the wealthiest circles--the old money, the smart money--it's common knowledge that a hand sewn outsole, if done right, is *the* standard for excellence. Lobbs don't hand sew their outsoles...anymore than Janne or Jan Petter...because they can do it faster by hand than with a curved needle. They hand sew them because their clientele--the rich--demand that standard of quality.

And it *is* quality...by any measure. With a capital "Q." I agree with Al on that, one hundred percent, even though I use a curved needle. Many of these techniques, many of the techniques that we have long ago abandoned in favour of something quicker or simpler...or simply easier to do...survive in the "uptown" shops simply because the results are manifestly prettier, longer wearing and more elegant. And elegant--in concept, in function, in appearance will always command a better price than mundane.

In the end, I would probably end up a little like Janne--doing most of my work on a CN and some, for select customers, by hand. And I would hope that as time went by, I'd get a name for doing the most exquisite, most elegant and refined work--"although he's terribly expensive, don't you know, but worth every penny"--and end up doing nothing but hand sewing.

It's probably too late for me, at this point, to reach that goal, but if you command those kinds of skills, you can literally command any price you want, once you get a name for it. And especially in this day and age...and the age to come...as factories become more computerized and machines make everything, we simply *must* start seeing ourselves from a different perspective. Once we *were* the "factories" so to speak, but that time is long gone. To continue to compete with the factories, as so many of us do, is a fool's game, in my book. It's evolution at it's most primal, my friends, and the only niche left is that of the specialist...who does something so unique and rare that it *cannot* be duplicated by machines.

"Do not go gentle into that good night...
Rage, rage, against the dying of the light."


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#58 Post by dw »

I lost the last little bit of my train of thought....

What I meant to say was that in the the last 100 years--since the advent of the "Machine Age," the Industrial Revolution, etc., shoemakers and bootmakers have been slowly losing ground. Less and less of us every day. And our work and workmanship has been losing ground as well. We've been going extinct. We may still go extinct. Because we can't compete in the same niche as the factories...or the factory mentality.

The HCC, and optimistically the Forum, arose--even if only as some vague impulse in the subconscious of the species--as an antidote to that extinction. It may not take. The *surest* way that we can doom ourselves, however, is to barter away our souls to the expedience and allure of the machine--to forego the learning and skills of the past as too hard, too time consuming, too passe. It's one thing to use a machine, it's quite another to let the use or the economies of its use dictate who and what we are. Or what we allow ourselves to become.

Again...

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage, against the dying of the light."
Dylan Thomas (1914-53)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#59 Post by Tex Robin »

DW,
This is what I meant about bootmakers taking other bootmakers apart.

I am sorry but I don't share your ambition to be a good handstitcher. It is just not my thing. But I have done some of it. That is why I am not going to do it.

And I am just as pickey as you are about lining up counters and vamps. I have picked stitches and re-sewn sideseams too, more than once I am here to tell you. But I am also here to tell you that handstitching is unnecessary and I will not do it. Sure it takes skill, but my Landis and American will do just fine and the quality of my boots is not compromised by my using the machines and using them is not mimicking the factories or cheapening my product. I will put my boots up against anyones for quality. And I don't make my boots for bootmakers that lived hundreds of years ago and don't believe that they were better bootmakers than we are. Sorry, but that is my opinion..TR
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#60 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Tex,

After yesterday I sure don't want you to think I'm picking on you, personally, at all, however there're times I'd like to organize a little HCC/Forum field-trip, and haul the interested souls [should that be soles] kicking and screaming on a remedial whirlwind tour of some of the better English and European museum collections of boots and shoes, and show you first-hand the boots and shoes of our [your] ancestors up close and personal. If you could only see them, handle them, look at the stitches under a magnifying glass, etc., the bar would be raised--no question about it. There was some crap made in the past, and that's not hard to spot, but there was some frighteningly perfect work done too--dare I say better than *anything* I've seen made in the past 30 years?

=================
"And I don't make my boots for bootmakers that lived hundreds of years ago and don't believe that they were better bootmakers than we are."
================

If you'd *seen* the boots I've seen, you might temper your bravado just a tad. You're sure entitled to your opinion, as everybody is, but I'll bet you a burrito [or chicken dinner] I can show you a dozen boots that will make you weep like a baby, less than 200 years old, never touched by a machine, that will scare even you Image
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#61 Post by dw »

Tex,

You are entitled to your opinion...every one on this forum is...including it's administrator. If your remark about "taking other bootmakers apart" is aimed at me let me make the following comments and I hope everyone will read them closely.

I, too, feel like I was born to be a bootmaker. Some of this stuff comes so naturally to me and to my hands that it's almost as if I were born knowing what to do. I wasn't born a writer or a webmaster, however. Much of what constitutes a good writer I had to teach myself. I literally had to teach myself how to think logically and explain clearly. I had to teach myself how to moderate a feisty bunch of people without offending this one or that one or taking offense myself. As I said none of this came easy, I'm not, by nature, very tactful,(too plain speaking, perhaps), I never was a very "social" person and I'm still not too good at either one.

But if you read my writings or read my posts, for the most part I do not criticize other people's work or their ideas. I get angry when attacked...like everyone does...and sometimes I over-react, although less so, hopefully, as I go along. What I *do* do, however, is try to clearly explain what *I* do, what *I* think, and why I think it. If someone asks me about pegs and why I use them...OR if there is a discussion where the merits of pegs is being discussed...I feel like I have a *right* to be who I am and explain why I like pegs and the rationale behind their use. Again, all from *my* own personal perspective. I'm not perfect, but I try to keep my remarks centered on my own experiences.

For example, I don't ever think I have said "if you use tacks, your boots are poor quality." Admittedly, in such a discussion, the use of tacks may suffer in comparison. Several reasons this may occur come to mind, ie.: the use of tacks may really and truly be an inferior technique; the person promoting tack may not be able (or willing) to articulate the rationale for using them; or I may be better at laying out the advantages of pegs. None of that is my fault. Nor is any of it an attack or a "taking apart" on my part. The discussion is passive. I am deliberately using a passive voice. It's the difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness.

But the bottom line is that this Forum is *about* discussion of just such issues. It is about articulating the reasons for taking one approach or the other. For the Trade to survive we need to pass on these skills...every one of them. It takes skill to operate a curved needle...a different skill than stitching by hand...but I'm dern good with a CN and I can tell you it takes literally years to master it. I value the lessons and the reasons for using a stitching machine as much as I value the reasons for hand stitching. The Trade needs to archive and record each...so that future generations will have a choice. Will be able to weigh the pros and cons. Will be able to read Tex and Al.... and DW (and all the others)...and say "I think I want to do it that way." I told you, early on, and it's been one of my recurring themes...we need, we *want* your input. Without the input and advice of Tex Robin or any of the other Texas bootmakers, the record is incomplete. But without the input and advice of the Al Sagutos and the Jake Dobbines and the Lisa Sorrels and the Jan Petter Myeres and the Frank Joneses and the Larry Wallers, and yes, even the DWs, the record would also be incomplete.

As I said at the beginning of this "essay" I am not the best moderator that heaven could imagine. I'm not the best teacher that that could be hoped for. I'm old and cranky and never was a party animal. I simply do my best and I don't look down on anyone--I take time to explain and hopefully help each and every one who seeks my opinion, even if I just gave the very same explanation the day before. If I offend people in the process, it is not my intention to do so. That said, there *are* people who, shall we say are "easily offended." Or more accurately, lay in wait looking for reasons to be offended. I can't do anything about them, even if I were so inclined.

As people have to adjust to the sometimes prickly personality of Tex Robin, so too they have to adjust to the admittedly long winded and slightly acerbic personality of DW. In my old age, I "burn and rave...," as should we all. Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#62 Post by Tex Robin »

Al,
Well, I guess I am noted for my short posts, but it doesn't take many words for me to get my point across. Everyone to his own thing and whatever floats your boat. But I don't pattern my boots after English Shoemakers. And I certainly don't
mean any insults to them. But Cowboy Boots and English shoes have very little similarity and this subject could go on and on and on and I have cowboy boots to make and am going to my shop! Image...TR
jonathon

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#63 Post by jonathon »

I'd like to add my two cents worth if I may.
Like Jake I hand sew my side seams, and (get ready to cringe Tex)I also hand sew my soles.
One reason for this is the amount of western boots I do. Far, far less than the likes of D.W. & Tex I'm sure, so the time factor for me is not a problem. Secondly I know through experiance that I can achieve a much stronger and nicer looking job stitching by hand. But the most important reason is because that is the way I was taught.My masters main aim in his later years was to pass on these traditional techniques so that they would not be lost to time.I hand stitch to preserve not only my own skills ,but those of my master also.
Besides,believe it or not,I actually enjoy it!

Hope this message finds you all well.
Cheers.
Jon.
diane

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#64 Post by diane »

i am a novice so please bear with me....
while purchacing round leather shoelace spools
i picked up a free tiny instruction sheet on how
to tie the lacing to look like barbed wire (4 points) - it was intended for using in bracelets earings, etc. -but other uses might be interesting to try...
my QUESTION: DOES ANYONE HAVE THESE INSTRUCTIONS?
as i lost mine.....yes i am not very bright, sorry and thankyou
love,
diane
ecat@wwww.at
User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#65 Post by gcunning »

We have had this discussion before but now that I'm in the position. I need a little help. I bought some kangaroo from Sigel. I was told it was Italian Kangaroo. I tested a little piece in water and it turned the whole water blue almost purple. I have cutouts going on the uppers. Is there anyway of protecting the leather other that Murphy's soap or with the vinegar when I soak them. Or do most people just not use the leather for uppers and get replacement leather rather than chance it??
Lisa Sorrell

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#66 Post by Lisa Sorrell »

Gary,
I've had the same problem with Hardtke's red kangaroo. The last time I crimped a pair of red vamps, I FINALLY remembered to put vinegar in the water. Usually the water is RED when I take the vamps out, and the lining leather is red where it touched the vamps. This time the water had just the very faintest tinge of pink, and the lining leather was only faintly pink where the leathers had touched. It did make a difference, so you might test a piece with vinegar in the water...

Lisa
User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#67 Post by gcunning »

How much vinegar? I just worry about the white calf cutout absorbing some blue color. Oh well I'm used to throwing my mistakes in the junk bin.
The bin is getting taller and taller will the madness ever stopImage
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#68 Post by dw »

Gary, Lisa,

Yes, That's the questions, isn't it? "How much vinegar?" What does the vinegar do anyway? I mean beyond curbing the bleeding...somewhat-but-not-completely? I mean besides making the boots smell like an old gherkin? Anyone know if it damages the leather in some way...maybe somewhere down the road, some deterioration takes place?

If I were about to make a pair of boots with black tops and white underlays and the black was bleeding that bad. I'd put the black aside for some other pair of boots and start with a different leather. Even with the vinegar and using cold, cold water, the chances of bleeding onto/into that white approach 100%. You're not gonna lose just the top leathers, you're gonna lose the liners, as well and, if you don't wet the tops until you're ready to tree the boots, you may lose insole, sole, heels and all your work.

It's a low percentage situation.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Driftwood

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#69 Post by Driftwood »

For what its worth, I have been using vinegar and water to prevent coloring bleed for the past 38 years. But as with most things learned and past on to the next generation usually some of the important steps are forgotten or deleted for whatever reason or when someone hears it their first response is that can not be true. After you wash the leather in 1 part vinegar and 4 parts water you then proceed to the next unimaginable step of washing with your favorite conditioning soap be it Murphys or saddle soap or Mommas cosmetic soap.The conditioning soap removes the caustic effects of the vinegar. Please do not scrub like your warshin ya feet, but gently.then rinse. Nope your not done yet! Lay the leather aside till it is almost dry or slightly damp. Next apply your favorite non darking leather conditioner rubbing it into the leather both sides to restore the suppleness that we have washed out.(My favorite conditioner is Bic-4) Wipe off any excess conditioner with a cloth and let dry before using. Give this a try on a couple of small pieces of scrap leather. This method I have been using for some time and it works! If it does not work for you, then you will have to dig up my Grandfather and slap him but take lots of help, He hates being woke up from a nap! This is a great forum D.W. If it had been around in my Grandfathers time so much would not have been lost to modern ASSumption.Please pardon any grammatical infarction not very good with high tech toys.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#70 Post by dw »

Driftwood,

Thanks for the kind remarks about the Forum...blame the nearly 300 registered members.

I worry about the vinegar. I have a recipe for "iron black"-- a dye made with iron fillings (or used lasting tacks) soaked in vinegar. I've used it on bark tanned leather on occasion ...mostly sole leather...and it works very well. But I had occasions some year back to make a pair of boots for a fellow with a chrome allergy. I had a nice piece of moderately firm veg in about a five ounce that seemed suitable...except that it was undyed.

So I decided to cut the pieces and dye them with "iron black." The boots turned out really nice.The leather looked like a million bucks...and the customer was very pleased. For about nine months. Then he came in and showed me his boots. They looked like the leather was literally rotting from the outside in. There were large patches where the grain surface had peeled or just sort of crumbled away.

Was it the leather...probably. Could it have been the vinegar? I've just enough concern that it was, that I tend to worry using the vinegar. Your recipe sounds like it is addressing some of the very issues that bother me.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#71 Post by Tex Robin »

All,

I have never seen this bleeding you are talking about to be a problem. Why would you even soak your boot tops anyway? I don't quite understand why you guys are creating problems that don't even exist. I have NEVER used any oil or vinegar in my water and don't plan to. And I won't get any bleeding of colors. Never have...TR
User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#72 Post by gcunning »

Thanks All,
These pair are for my wife. I need the practice and I will try anything cause she likes the Blue. I am kind of upset at Sigel though.
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#73 Post by Tex Robin »

DW, All,
Vinegar is very acidic. You can use it to remove callouses from you feet. I would never use it in my soaking water..TR
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#74 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Tex,

Am I correct in assuming that you crimp, as well as last and tree everything up bone dry? Some time back there was discussion of lasting uppers dry versus wet, and it seems there are two old, traditional schools of thought on both approaches--another good reason to check the 'Forum I' archive. Me, I throw everything in a bucket of plain water, then last it. Only had a little black off some Italian veg. calf bleed a little--but 90% of everything I make is black anyway.
Tex Robin

Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#75 Post by Tex Robin »

Al,

No, you are not correct in assuming that I crimp, tree and last dry. I do not. But I am not dumb enough to throw a pair of light colored or multicolored boots in a bucket of water. I use a spritz bottle with Texas hard water and clear Ivory soap. I have used this for about 40 yrs with no harmful or bleeding effects on all three of the above. Only when crimping do I soak a pair of vamps in the same solution. No oil, vinegar , alcohol, or anything but clear Ivory soap...Everything bleeds a little in the soak water but with no ill effects....TR
Post Reply