miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

[shane]

I don't know where else to pose this question\discusion, so please move it if needed.
Here is my problem. I have tried side seaming every way possible, from hand sewing to machine sewing. I have used linen, nylon, and poly threads. No matter what I try I stil get a grin, sometimes worse than others. It is not lose stitching that is the problem. When I hand stitch, it is very tight. I thought the problem might be in the process of lasting. I had limited success by not taking a very strong first draft. I just don't know what to do. I still feel like there is too much tension from toe to heel. Can anyone offer some kind of direction?
Grinning and bareing.
Shane

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Shane,

I'm sure the western boot crowd will be able to offer all sorts of sage advice on this matter, but from my experience, no matter how tight you stitch the seams, some grinning can be always be forced to occur in lasting on any "close" [as in "too close for comfort"] seam [stabbed face-to-face, then forced open]. One puzzlement to me is, contemporary cowboy bootmakers use folded "bead" welts in the side seams, which look great, but they do not always fill up the seam very well IMO. On historical, 19th c. wellingtons, the welt in the side-seam was invariable a single-layer cut strip, and often thicker stuff than a "bead" welt--I've never used a "bead" welt myself--and I think these do a better job of filling the gap. After the boot's done, and on the boot-tree, I rub down the welt and side-seam hard with a long-stick, which usually spreads the welt out to fill the gap well. A little judicious tapping with a fitter's-hammer helps to.

In general, grinning seams are unbalanced: the material on one side is too stiff, the other too yielding, so when folded open the weak link is the stitches. It's just a guess, not having seen your boots, but my "remote diagnosis" might be to try going beefier on your welt, lighter on your legs, or try flattening your side-welts after treeing to splay them out to fill the gap.

[dw]

Shane,

I'd have to agree with Al to some extent. I worry about grinning on the welt--the outsole welt--I never worry about it on the side welt. It is, as you've surmised, a function of toe-to-heel tension. We want that tension!

Or do we? What's the alternative? That the boot just sort of lays on the last? If that's what you want, make your tops real wide and don't pull the vamps forward hardly at all...just smooth it out over the last as best you can and bottom them out. Of course, you won't get any cupping in the heel or any opening up of the throat, the boot will probably lean backward to a significant degree and the foot will fall into the boot and rattle around in there like an old man in an empty house. But, hey...you won't have any grinning.

If you last "seats up" you'll almost always get grinning especially in the quarters. This is natural...it couldn't be any other way and still accomplish what you intend--to draw the leather tight all around the cone and sides of the last. But if the boot is balanced in terms of thickness, as Al points out, that grinning will disappear as soon as the last is pulled and the boot is worn for a week or so...and the leather relaxes. So where's the harm?

As for the side welt itself, I've used strip welts and beaded welts both. I like them both at different times. A thick strip welt looks clumsy to my eye but can be spread as Al suggests with a little judicious rubbing. A beaded welt looks clumsy when it is too wide, as well...it looks like a big worm trying to crawl up the side of the boot. But a too thick welt covers the stitches better than a narrow welt. On every pair of boots that I've ever seen where the boot was clearly made with proper tension and the sidewelt *did not* grin, the sidewelt was wider than an eighth of an inch.

On the other hand, if the sidewelt is too narrow it looks bad, too, and what's worse, it won't cover the stitches at all. So a beaded welt has to be just right to really look good. When you get it like that, the heavy thread core that a beaded welt *should* have, covers the stitches as well as or better than a strip welt simply by virtue of being slightly rounded and slightly wider than the seam itself. But neither the strip welt nor the beaded welt can cover the grinning stitches in the quarters when the boot is under tension.

My advice...and it's not written in stone...is don't sweat it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tex robin]

Al, Shane,

I will make my sage contribution short and sweet. Grinning of sideseams is impossible to get rid of. But I do use a folded sidewelt, or piping and herein lies the remedy. A soft puffy material used for the sidewelt tends to hide the grinning when gently tapped in when lasting. But the purchased sidewelt is mostly too thin and hard to fill in the grinning...TR

[Lisa Sorrell]

Shane,
I'm not sure if this will be relevent to your problem or not, but I had a real problem with side seams grinning for a while. I started out using liquid wax in my straight needle, and my side seams were fine. But I had so many bootmakers tell me that wasn't necessary, and it was better to just use thread lubricant. So I switched, and after that my side seams grinned no matter how I adjusted the machine. I finally went back to liquid wax, and it's not a problem anymore.

After I cut the side draft, I go back and thin the sides of all the counters evenly if they need it. Sometimes the counter will be thicker in the side seam area than I want after I've cut the side draft and that can pull the stitches open.

Lisa

[jake]

Shane,

Well....guess I'll add my 2 cents worth.

First and foremost, if grinning bothers a person, I recommend hand sewing the side welt. I do......because I don't believe any machine can sew as tight a stitch as me, maybe more uniform, but not as tight. I hand sew the sideseam with a waxed 7-cord linen thread. Polyester, nylon, etc. will not give you as tight a stitch and will stretch to some degree. I make all my sidewelt material. The thickness of the leather of the boot will dictate the weight of my sidewelt material. I also place a cord in my sidewelt (again, 7-cord linen). One final comment, make sure your boot is well-cased before lasting. The boot will take the extra stress that we place on it a lot better. I usually soak my boots for 30 minutes in warm water and place in a bag for several hours (4-5).

Lisa, what liquid wax do you use?

[Lisa Sorrell]

Jake,
The liquid wax I have now is "Jared Holt Brand SuperSonic" with a C.S. Pierce label on it. I think I bought it from Panhandle Leather.

Lisa

[dw]

For those who are wondering about the term "grinning," this photos shows the sideseam grinning from just above the quarters down to the insole. Notice how taut the leather is between the front and rear quarter curves. Notice how above the quarters, where the tops have not been stretched, there is no grinning at all. All this is natural, inescapable for the most part, and will disappear when the boot is worn. For what it's worth, I also hand stitch my tops from the counter down. I use waxed poly...the wax is a very "grippy" white handwax...and I use a "shoemaker's stitch" not a machine stitch--a shoemaker's stitch requires two bristles, in lieu of a jerk needle. I use thread lubricant above the quarters and stitch the seam closed with an American Straight Needle.

2116.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Lisa,

That's what I use in my Union Lock and curved needle stitchers. I don't think there's any better.

D.W.,

NICE!

Thanks for the clarification on handsewing. Use a "shoemaker's" stitch, not a lock stitch!

Another reason for completely hand sewing the side welt, is if you have a "graft" or a "collar" on your tops, you'll most likely need to hand sew that area as well....so, I just hand sew the whole darn thing. It probably takes me a little longer, but I believe it leads to a better job and end product.

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Jake, Lisa,

How's it different from Solari's brand liquid stitcher wax, which is all I've ever seen out here on the "right" coast? Solari's seems to be pine rosin suspended in some kind of mineral spirit. Once the juice evaporates, it leaves the threads very well-rosined [sticky].

[jake]

As I'm working I check my email occasionally. Sometimes I don't place as much time into my post as I should.

Let me clarify something right now. If I could use a machine (even for part of the side welt sewing job) and obtain the results D.W. gets, I would use it in a minute. Even though I believe a "shoemaker's" stitch is superior to a lock stitch, the consistency and speed would sway me.

My inability to set up and use a machine to sew the side welt exactly, and every time, just inside the bead lead me to hand sewing the side welt, along with the above mentioned points.

Al,

I know Sellari Natural Wax Company makes several different products. Throughout the years, I've ordered on several occasions a Sellari liquid wax. I've received everything from Sellari's stitcher oil to Sellari's No. 85 thread lubricator. So.....I can't comment on what you have in your hand. But....I would like to try it! What does it say on the gallon jub....VERBATIM? I'm always into trying something that may be better, and the pine rosin suspension sounds good to me! Of course, C.S. Pierce (actually Jared Holt) wouldn't tell me what they have in their liquid wax.

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Jake,

I buy the quarts, not gallons, but here's what it says: "Sellari's Non-Heating-Natural Stitching Wax". It has it's own special wax-thinner/machine cleaner, sold separately, which is labeled non-flammable, but it sure smells like varsol or mineral spirits. Works great for cleaning gunk out of old machines too.

[jake]

Al,

Mucho Gracious!

[Tex Robin]

Jake, DW, and all ,
I simply must jump in on this one. Hand stitch sideseams? Hand stitch Soles?

As long as my American Straight Needle and My Landis Gs are sewing and there is still a good supply of them out there I will never, never, never, never, handstitch a sideseam or sole. This is out of the question. I can't believe you guys sitting there on your computers and handstitching anything!

Sewing machines were invented over a hundred years ago and I have never had a customer tell me that my machine was not stitching good enough and I would have to hand stitch. Maybe we should go back to the Pony Express and quit our pcs. After all the Pony Express doesn't crash.

That's all I have to say about the subject. I expect that there will be several follow ups coming almost immediately and that is your option but don't expect much of a reply from me on the subject of handstitching..TR

[jake]

Tex,

I know! I know! It borders on the insane! But now, none of us said anything about hand sewing outsoles on.....at least, I didn't. And one comment on hand sewing.......what about your inseaming? I believe you hand sew, don't ya?

I won't rehash my comments on why I do hand sew the sidewelt, but I guess it leads me to ask you, "How do you keep your counter cover/vamp junction right on the money and machine stitch your sidewelt? Do they meet perfectly every time?"

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Tex,

Aw no fair man, doin' hit-and-run criticisms. Let's put this in perspective, we've been making pretty nice boots and shoes entirely by hand for about 10,000 years at least. We've only been eased into machine-sewn mediocrity since the 1850s [150 years out of 10,000, what's that in dog-years?]. When properly done hand-stitching is: 1) way stronger, 2) more versatile, 3) tighter, 4) each stitch is more secure, 5) more perfectly-placed, and 6) prettier than any ol' iron contraption can do. Taken to show-off extremes, too, I've never seen a machine do 64 to the inch [prize-work "for show not go"], or even 30-odd to the inch, not uncommon on some shoes and boots made for actual wear. Heck, after all these years I often can get way better and more consistent results by-hand, than I can get out these infernal 40 to 80 year old contraptions I've collected over the past 5 years or so, trying to join the "modern age" and "expand" my horizons. If time really matters that much, better just buy boots wholesale, and retail them, not even bother wasting time making them.

I suppose you prefer TV dinners and "energy bars" to home cooked meals, and "virtual reality" to reality too, you modern guy you?

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Yeah, and what about inseaming? I got jumped all over a while ago for even suggesting that a Goodyear welted boot *can* be made just about as durable and so forth as a hand-sewn welt. You make an old-style Goodyear insole, where the holdfast is actually formed from the folded lips of insole leather--not that stuck-on "Gem" rib canvas stuff; inseam with ploy-thread and genuine hot wax, and I'd almost put them up against hand-sewn for durability. In fact, right now I'm wearing an elderly pair of Goodyear welted boots made in 1951 with linen thread. I've worn them hard from time to time for about the past 7 years--they were used when I got 'em--and the inseam is still standing firm.

Is the *only* reason you cowboy boot guys don't use a Goodyear inseaming machine simply because they cost $40,000, and are hard to find? If they were as common and affordable as American straight needles, Landis curved needles, or Singer patchers, I bet you all wouldn't even bother hand-sewing another inseam, huh? If you could set up a jig to feed your shafts through a 31 class Singer, to automatically do all that embroidery, would you do that too? How 'bout pegging machines? Heck, next step is just to pay somebody else to manufacture your boots in sizes and widths, and try to make up in volume what you loose in profits

[Tex Robin]

Jake,

Very simple, Inseaming by hand is better. Handsewing sideseams,*or soles* is not better.

And my counters line up just as good sewing with my machine as they would if I sewed them by hand.
(which I don't)

And another little comment. Bootmakers can get on this forum and take other bootmakers apart but I have never had a customer in over 40 years to tell me their counters didn't line up. And we make boots for customers, not other bootmakers.

The way I get my counters to line up perfectly(well most of the time)is to put a small amount of all purpose right where the counter and top meets and I stick them together before I side seam them. And I sew them all the way down with the straight needle, even the collars.

The straight needle machine I am using has been running since 1960 and I have never had a sideseam to rip or break loose. If it quits tomorrow I will just have to start using my curve needle but not hand stitching! Before hand stitching I would lace them. At least that looks good! If you guys want to hand stitch, that is fine but I have better things to do with my time ..TR

[Tex Robin]

Al,
No offense but I don't have to write ten paragraphs to explain how we make boots in Texas. We just do it. And we don't compare Apples to Oranges. We don't eat TV dinners *or* home cooked meals. WE go out to the Mexican Restaurant. TR

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Tex,

I'm curious. A while back somebody on here mentioned side-seaming with a curved needle machine. I experimented on some scrap and quickly came to the conclusion that it was the Devil himself trying to dazzle me with BS. You really can feed a s-seam through a curved needle stitcher and have it come out anywhere near acceptable? What awl/needle/needle-guide/thread combination are you using to work this feat of magic?

[jake]

Tex,

Thanks for sharing your technique!

I can't speak for others, but I just like talking shop. I believe everyone has something to offer. Most of us have very strong opinions on how/why we do things. We can address techniques and approve/disapprove most of them. I would have to agree with Al on the hand sewn stitch (shoemaker's stitch).......it's better than ANY lockstitch done by machine for the reasons Al stated. But like I said, if I could get reliable results every time, I would use a machine due to the consistency and speed. With hand sewing certain steps, I just have more control over the stituation.

As for eating, I'm with you Tex on the Mexican food. Let's go!

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Tex,

==========
"I don't have to write ten paragraphs to explain how we make boots in Texas. We just do it."
==========

Uh-huh. I see. No need to elaborate. I guess you're all born just knowing this stuff, but I'm still curious why you never tried a Goodyear inseaming machine.

I just got back from La Tolteca, our local Tex-Mex joint for lunch my own self *belch*. That Habanero pepper sauce really wakes you up don't it?

[Tex Robin]

Al,
Just to show you I am not mad, I am back. You are partly right about the inseaming machine. Ray Jones used one for years and his boots were considered by some to be the best in Texas. But for a small shop like mine, only making 40 to 50 pair per year, doing them by hand is better. I can inseam a pair of boots in 30 minutes. That is 30 minutes of inseaming per week, roughly. Even James Leddy with his 8 pair per week says an inseaming machine is not justified. I don't argue with you , with the short stitch an inseaming machine does it is very durable and sometimes even tighter than a hand inseam. So you see we are not completely ignorant down here in the Lone Star State..We know our options.TR

[Tex Robin]

Al,
I have never used a curve needle to sew sideseams, but my Father did and most small shops in Texas do. Lee Miller has used one for years and last I heard from him he had purchased a straight needle and had trouble. He went back to the CN. You have to raise your channel knife and I am not sure what else. I believe they used to make a round awl. If my American quits I will tell you the whole process. I now have extra Gs to use if necessary. Maybe Lee will jump in and explain the set-up..TR

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Tex,

Cool. I didn't think you were mad ["angry" Frank], just cranky today maybe. I can see at that volume--a pair a week--and only inseaming from joint to joint like you guys do, that's not enough to warrant the enormous, and enormously expensive, Goodyear inseaming machine. Did that Jones guy raise a holdfast out of the insole leather itself, or use that stick-on "Gem" rib canvas stuff? Did he use hot wax on the thread [linen?], assuming you know?

I'm just curious, because as I've said, I've seen good quality Goodyear welt inseams stand the test of wear and time and hold up just fine. At 41-plus years, the ones on my feet have taken a lickin' and keep on tickin'. As to tighter, I don't know. I've seen some lousy hand-sewing too, loose as a goose. You can drive a nail with a hammer, or shot one in a nail gun *bang* it's in.

Interesting aside, up until the First World War, the British Army specified service boots to all be hand-sewn welted, and the soles hand-stitched; but once the war came all the shoemakers were drafted, the number of boots needed skyrocketed, and they had to find an alternative machine construction, they experimented with our Goodyear [machine] welted, and found it too feeble in their boots [heavier than ours]. However we made it through both world wars, Korea, and the beginnings of Vietnam in Goodyear welted boots just fine, hummm... anyway, food for thought.