miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

[rileycraig]

Matt, Gary, Tex, Frank & Paul,

Thanks for the response guys, as usual I came to the right place for answers. I appreciate it.

Matt, good talking with you today, you gave me some good information on one piece tops. I think it will be a while before I try it, but I will, sooner or later. (Grin)

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[fneiii]

I am working with some pull-up leather that before I began handling it had an antiquish finish to it. Now after turning the boots right side out the finsh is gone and it now looks like it is brushed velour. The color of the finish went from a medium to dark greasy looking brown. The client chose it because of the color and look. The question is what to put on it to bring back the original look?
Frank

[cmw]

All

I have a question about rough-out shoes and boots.

I'm designing and making a womens shoe as one of my projects in school. The back quarters are going to be rough out and the vamp is right side out. Before I sew the parts together, I'd like to hear what you use to protect the leather through the making of the shoe.

Ahead of time thank you for any help.
CW

[tmattimore]

If you are concerned about handling, a clean apron and clean hands are foremost. A pair of knit ropers gloves are real handy though they make picking up lasting tacks a little harder. Jan had a photo of a shoe wrapped in plastic wrap which should help a great deal. The greatest danger with r.o. is glue thus I never thin my AP to help prevent runs and dribbles. I also wrap the lever on my shank laster with a clean rag when pulling as you can really rub some grime in.
Tmattimore

[paul]

Frank,
What a pickel! You're probably feeling betrayed, I know I would. I was going to wait to see what someone else might suggest, but then thought I might have something to contribute. From my repair experience I know what I'd try, but I sure wouldn't be able to say that it'd look like new when you're done. I'd probably start by calling Garlin Newman and asking them. Short of that, I'd try (on a test piece) suede cleaner, a real fine grit sand paper, suede brush or something like that. I've gotten some results cleaning pull-ups with Aristocrat Cleaner and Conditioner. Seems to dry it out on the surface, though you could freshen it up with a lotion, I think. And I wonder how Nubuck Cleaner would work?
Keep us informed as to what seems to work. I'd like to know, that's for sure.

CW,
I'd think the same might be true for your quandry. I'm interested to try the plastic wrap technique myself, but I know you'd be able to freshen the knap of the suede after the fact, if all else fails. I hope you'll keep us informed as well.

PK

[Tex Robin]

Frank,

I don't know all of the circumstances about your experience with the pull up but I will tell you this..And some may disagree with me. Pull up is the bottom of the barrel of leather choices to use in making high grade boots. There is your reason for the problem in a nutshell.....TR

[fneiii]

Thanks Paul, I talked to Kevin Eisele and he suggested using a silicone prouduct just to coat the top of the hide to darken it. I am also going to have the client look at it before I do anything to it, maybe she will like the new color better?
Tex I get it, this was the fist time I have used this type of leather. The boots are for riding horses and not for much else. Every day is an adventure in the boot making world.
Frank

[das]

Maybe David Ross or Frank could confirm this item, to do with UK combat boots:

======================
IMPORTANT NOTICE - INSOLES COMBAT BOOT 1992 PATTERN TYPE 2 (PLASTIC)
Due to a series of recent accidents involving the 1992 Pattern insoles for the Boot Combat High and Assault Combat Boot, MOD (Army) are ordering the recall of all insoles manufactured before July 1994.
The current issue Army sock has been found to react with the plastic coating of the insole causing a breakdown in the chemical composition of the insole. This has on occasion caused a build up of flammable gas within the membrane. In extreme cases this has resulted in a small explosive detonation. To avoid further accident or injury all are being recalled.
In P Coy (Case 511) such a build-up caused an RE Cpl to be blown several feet into a beech tree. He sustained serious bruising and 3 other soldiers were treated for minor lacerations caused by flying lace holes.
There is only a small likelihood of injury. Current figures show the probability of inadvertent detonation at 1.5 per 1000 pairs of issued insoles. (Simultaneous detonation of both insoles is thankfully rare.) Over 42000 pairs of 1992 Pattern Type 2 insoles have been issued. Soldiers are required to examine all insoles for expiry dates. Any insoles manufactured before July 1994 are to be exchanged immediately.
================

[paul]

D.A.,
Now that's a gas!
PK

[cmw]

I have a question about pegging.

I’ve seen a few different ways to do it in the last week or so. One is once they make the hole with the awl, they use wood glue in the hole(s) before driving the peg(s) in. Is this because some just don’t trust the fact that the leather tightens up around the peg.

I’d like to know in order to know which way it should be done on some ropers that are going to be completely pegged ( for experience). That’s if I finish the other projects that I’m doing. Alot of orthop.-adjustments.

I’ve also seen e heal pegged without any glue/cement. Any thoughts?

by the way thanks for the response on my last question.
CW

[Tex Robin]

Chris,

I have heard of a lot of ignorant things, but putting glue in a peg hole takes the cake. When you get back to Texas, I will be glad to show you how to use pegs........TR

[cmw]

Tex
The teacher we have at the time doesn't do it. The teacher (he) is there to show people new things or his way of doing it. There are two people that do it because that is the way they make things in thier shop.

I've been told that alot of small things have been changed over here because the othop.-makers control so much of the market.

My boy is causing he..

CW

[dw]

Chris, Tex, et al...

We started to have this discussion some time ago, but there simply isn't enough people who regularly peg soles to really get a sense of what is possible. I've heard of "peg wax"--which might do the same thing as some sort of glue...particularly if it was rosin based. Certainly a beeswax or paraffin based wax would only make the pegs more likely to slip. Once upon a time I even tried dropping my pegs in dry wallpaper paste on the theory that a light dusting of the paste would cling to the peg and the moisture in a tempered sole would subsequently activate the paste and glue the pegs in tight. My little experiment didn't last long...not because it didn't work--it seemed to--but because it was awfully messy and tended to draw the life out of the pegs if they sat in the powder for any length of time.

Pegging is one of those arcane techniques that everyone seems to do a little differently simply because it never evolved as a technique that was in widespread use while being, at the same time, reliable enough as a means of attaching soles that it was used exclusively. In other words, we all give lip service to pegging but the all purpose cement probably has as much to do with the tightness of the bottoming as the pegs do.

Some say peg while the sole is damp but not wet. Some say peg when the sole is completely dry. Some say use a round awl...although historically square awls were commonplace and even preferred.

Personally, I think that leather has a lot to do with it. I find that a really top shelf soling leather such as the Rendenbach or the Baker's seems to hold the peg significantly better than domestic or even Italian soling leather. That said...in all honesty...I've never made a pair of boots where I was absolutely sure the pegs would never slip or come up a bit proud. Especially after they've been worn, and flexed, for all of five minutes, or so. And having said that, I'm not sure that an occasional loose peg is a big deal. I've never had one fall out, either, and I've never had a sole come off--even though I make a fair number of full pegged boot, especially for myself.

But anyone who can tell me how to end up with universally, and IRS reliably, tight pegs will have my undying gratitude.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

I have made near 4,000 pair of pegged shoes in the last 10 years and the few returns I get seem to fall into two catagories. The most common seems to be when the shoes are exposed to extremly wet and muddy conditions and the soles appear to have been literaly sucked off the shoes. The other problem area is in the shank area where constant flexing (or perhaps a poor fitting shank) causes the pegs to break or pull out. In every case of repair I can only recall one or two instances where pegs have fallen from the sole. I have used round awls,square awls and diamond shaped awls and the awl on my pegging machine is a spear tip which makes a straight narrow hole. The only reason I can think for them to fall out is if the hole is too big.
Tom Mattimore

[dw]

Tom

I agree. Just one thought though...I once heard (or read) something about shanks of boots that sort of surprised me. The theory goes that if the shank is constructed corectly, you don't really need a steel shank in the boot--even a boot with a heel. The concept is called "box beam construction," I think. And relies on every layer being snug, with no gaps or air pockets. Supposedly, if done correctly, leather alone is sufficient to support the foot even at inch at a half heel height.

I trust the theory and am sceptical of the reality...especially in wet conditions. But the point is just to reinforce your remarks by reiterating that if the shank is handled well, *and* has a steel shank, there ought to be very little real "flexing" in the shank area--just a bit of settling and "getting comfortable," so to speak. That accounts for some pegs coming up a tiny bit proud after the boot has been worn a very short time. But pegs should not ever fall out of the sole unless the hole is, as you said, too big.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

Tom,

In my time I have seen a few pegs back-out, or even fall-out of reinactors' shoes. Some of this might have been due to too large a hole, but one thing that seemed constant: these guys would wear the boots or shoes maybe one weekend a month at most, often with long months of disuse in between wearings. What I think happens is the bottoms get good and wet [the wood swells], then the boots get chucked into a closet, or someplace, dry out, the pegs shrink [to less than original dimensions, as wood will], and the next time they're worn, voila, loose pegs/soles. I used to advocate guys swipe the soles over with a damp sponge first thing, after the boots had been stored away and dried-out, just to swell the pegs back up.

As with any vertical attachment, or vertical fastener [pegs, nails, or even stitches such as MacKay], these prevent the soles from sheering and gliding over one another easily like in a welted boot. This makes the bottoms stiffer of course, but when they do flex--say when you squat down and fully flex the forepart, the force of the insole "extending", and the outsole "contracting", places tremendous amounts of sheer-factor on any vertical fastener that aims to "nail" them together as layers, like boards. This sheering action, I believe, loosens-up the pegging. Also because the soles won't flex [easily enough], there is also a lot of strain put on the upper where it joins the soles. All of these factors contribute to the shoe or boot "exploding" right behind the tread-line, or in the waist someplace--I don't think it has to do with the shank-piece itself, or lack of one. By adding more pegs per inch, the soles are better fixed onto the boot or shoe, but the stiffer the bottoms too.

I got to the point with pegging reinactor footwear, anticipating long periods of disuse, that I'd cement the outsole on with Barge really well, then peg it, and I never had another problem. You've seen guys, too, all warming their feet/drying their boots around the campfires too, right? Just death for pegs and leather.

Of course in the 1800s, generally, US soldiers were issued 4 pair a year, and on campaign they were only expected to last maybe 30 days anyway, so maybe we oughta keep our expectations "realistic".

[tmattimore]

Another reenactor problem from the same causes you just mentioned is what I call Toe curlitis. I belive that shoe trees were common in the 1800's and helped prevent this. The soles generaly stay attached to the upper until you try to straighten them out. Then the soles pop loose pulling free the pegs. As to poorly fitted shanks what I meant is that sometimes I have screwed up and put one in poorly which may spring the sole from the insole.
Tom Mattimore

[das]

"Toe curlitis"...I like that one. However, was it Tom Sawyer or Huck Fin, when they got brand new boots, had to curl the toes up by standing up to a fence or wall before they looked "cool"? The high toe spring of a curled toe is "period" too, and for all the bazillions of surviving American wellington-type boots I've seen, I've never seen a boot-tree [keeping-tree as opposed to boot-maker's "fitting" tree] in, with, or near one.

Now there's a good question: I've seen some feeble 18thc. attempts at boot-keeping trees for jackboots, etc., a few for English [UK that is] riding boots by, say, c.1850s, and for best-grade bespoke button boots, gaiters, and other mid-height and ankle boots c.1880s onward, especially in Europe. But keeping-trees for American wellingtons? There are numerous fitting-trees [bootmakers' adjustable trees for stretching/treeing] in shoemaker art and in collections from the mid 18thc. onwards, but where do you see keeping-trees as "common" in the 1800s, or specifically for these wellingtons? Do you have photos or something?

Now you've got me wondering how the 19thc. American gentlemen who kept their boots well, kept the things treed, of for that matter what they put inside to support and burnish the waxed-calf on. Maybe all the 19thc. wellington boot keeping-trees went for firewood...?

[tmattimore]

D.A
You are probably right after checking catalouges I don't see any trees until the turn of the century. I also remember that when visiting the Steam ship Arabia's back room they did not have any on board even for the few fancy wellingtons with the patent leather grifts. Since it would make sense that they would be made by last makers perhaps Pablo or some last historian might provide insight.
Tom Mattimore

[das]

Tom,

I was thinking...[dangerous]. The 19thc. shoe findings catalogues are just that--mostly findings and makers' supplies--so it's not too weird that customers' keeping-trees wouldn't be in them. But, they do sell "accessories" too, so I dunno. Like you, I'd guess trees were made by lastmakers, but you can't turn a boot tree on a regular last lathe [then or now] because the frame's not big enough.. Jim Bowman had a different one with much larger space between centers, i.e. a boot-tree lathe. I have a few 19thc. adjustable fitting-trees here with makers' names on them, and I'll check to see if they are known lastmakers.

At this point, my guess is that the ubiquitous American "stove-pipe" wellington boot, during its hey-day [what c.1850 through c.1890--when most of them seem to date anyhoo], just curled up at the toe, wrinkled down and sagged around the ankle, and lived and died without ever being stored on trees when not in use. Since the wellington boot was an everyday utility boot, worn for everything from walking and riding, to farming and mining, unlike the English riding boot that was only worn for sport riding, hunting, etc., they probably spent every day in wear, so there was little need to put them up on keeping-trees until you wore them again "next week". Moreover, if you only owned one pair of footwear, and it happened to be a wellington boot, unless you were going to be scrupulous and tree them every night at bed-time, plus haul your trees around with you, what's the point?

[pablo]

Tom,
Patents( as early as 1854) indicate common lasts were split lengthwise then fitted with screw rods(2) to lift the upper half. Holes on the last into which plug-in bunion bulges made for exacting streching. Also, references of stretchers made 'long since' which were manipulated by a single screw. Stretchers we are familiar with now appear by 1859. Expandable
in all the usual places just like today.Following are various models that eventually end up replaced by the classic shoe/boot stretcher - the Geo. E. Belcher stretcher with the arrow head spreader probably everyone owns.
Adios

[cmw]

I have a question once again.

I just pinned a pr.of heel stiffeners on the last to dry and take the form of the last. This was done without the uppers. I reaaly looks good when they start to dry and pull in. Do any of you do this on a regular basis?

I bet ya'll are going to be happy when I'm finished with (school)session. The crazy questions will/might fall to a minimum.

CW

[das]

Chris,

I pre-form my heel stiffeners wet on the last--the ones that get inserted between the quarters and quarter-linings. Hope that makes you feel better

[cmw]

D.A.


I didn't mean to seem silly. If there is one thing that I've learned in the short time I've spent in the branch, It's that there are alot of different way to do things. Quite honestly I have no idea what the standards are in different countries. Heck, there are big differences in our group/class in school. And Denmark is a third the size of Texas. There is only one of the others that pre-form.

I hope to find a job with an orthopaedic maker after November, so I can work with/learn to make shoes and not repairs. You might say that ya'll are helping to decide who gets appraoched and who doesn't. I would hate to waste my time.

CW

[shoestring]

Pre-forming heel stiffners is that the norm or shoe/boot makers choice,and does the same apply to a toe stiffner.