Al, The engraving tool handle is wood. Just drive the needle eye into a small pilot hole as stated above. Not too deep on the pilot hole. Seems to hold.
Thom, Excellent writeup on heat treating. Procedure would make superb cutting tools. As with many other things; ask six people, get eight answers, none wrong.
Would suggest that very small tools such as awls or small thread scrapers be tempered to a blue color to prevent brittleness (more like a spring). Don't think mama's oven will get that hot. After quenching, polish the tool. Using a propane torch, heat the handle end to a blue and chase the colors until just the very tip is light brown, quench. Repeat the tempering process(double temper)as O-1 is somewhat slow to react to temper colors.
BTW, Al's filing jig and "coal shovel" idea is an excellent idea for small parts.
Didn't Dick Anderson have an HCC presentation on making awls? Have not seen it but suspect it would be excellent.
Tools of the Trade
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
I agree with softer than cutting tool temper, as I mentioned, also the 1020 in super quench is in that orbit. On the other hand chisels both cut and pry (should only be used to cut atmo, but probably the majority of users pry) and they get by with straw temper. It's all a mater of how you use it. In tool use there is the person working in your shop using your tools like they are disposable razors, right over to the person who knows exactly what each tool is capable of and works right up to that margin with power. Like landing an 80 pound tarpon on a fly rod with a 6 pound tippet. I bitterly remember coming home one night and finding the workmen who had pulled out our oil tank had used a 350 dollar macassar ebony chisel like a cold chisel to cut some bolts...
Also if one follows the initial instruction to heat treat some portion of the tip, one is actually doing a differential heat treat in which only the end is supper hard. So that is the cutting edge, for anything actually sharpened, and the body will not be heat treated. Only the end demagnetizes, though there may be oxide most of the length. This is often the best of both world since one has toughness where it is wanted and hardness where it belongs.
Some of the awls I have seen pictured seem rather fragile, and might bend under rough use if diff hardened. That's up to the maker. If one fears that possibility then one wants an all over hardness. There one could harden the whole thing like a glass rod, then stick it in the oven at 400, then later when cool, stick the point in some water etc... and blue the shank. That way one gets the whole thing at least spring with the tip hard. What you can do is endless.
One thing that was quite typical of earlier tools was more meat in the shank. They forged stuff often using iron for much of a tool, As a result they normally worked down from heavier materials, leaving nice beefy shanks. I almost always prefer that kind of tool, just a preference. Since doubling the diameter of a shank makes it 4 times stronger and 8 times stiffer the hardness requirement that would exist in a lighter tool in that area is taken care of.
I think the important thing, if one has put off giving the heat treatment of little tools a try heretofore, is not to let the perfect be the enemy of the great.
A simple approach to heat treating O1 will often yield better results than are evident in most of the tools in one's possession.
Also if one follows the initial instruction to heat treat some portion of the tip, one is actually doing a differential heat treat in which only the end is supper hard. So that is the cutting edge, for anything actually sharpened, and the body will not be heat treated. Only the end demagnetizes, though there may be oxide most of the length. This is often the best of both world since one has toughness where it is wanted and hardness where it belongs.
Some of the awls I have seen pictured seem rather fragile, and might bend under rough use if diff hardened. That's up to the maker. If one fears that possibility then one wants an all over hardness. There one could harden the whole thing like a glass rod, then stick it in the oven at 400, then later when cool, stick the point in some water etc... and blue the shank. That way one gets the whole thing at least spring with the tip hard. What you can do is endless.
One thing that was quite typical of earlier tools was more meat in the shank. They forged stuff often using iron for much of a tool, As a result they normally worked down from heavier materials, leaving nice beefy shanks. I almost always prefer that kind of tool, just a preference. Since doubling the diameter of a shank makes it 4 times stronger and 8 times stiffer the hardness requirement that would exist in a lighter tool in that area is taken care of.
I think the important thing, if one has put off giving the heat treatment of little tools a try heretofore, is not to let the perfect be the enemy of the great.
A simple approach to heat treating O1 will often yield better results than are evident in most of the tools in one's possession.-
hrst
Re: Tools of the Trade
Thom. An enthusiastic thanks for the tutorial on harending and tempering. I have a question- why quench in fat? Thanks again.
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dearbone
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Thank you for the tips and advise on metallurgy, i will try it next time i need to bend metal and temper,but here is my sewing, stitching and pegging awls,they can be used to make full and sewn uppers and bottoms without the use of machines of any sorts,some of you know what these awls are,but for who wish to make them, buy them,or like me who just make the hafts and and fit awls to them, The first 3 on from the left are my sole stitching awls(i use the 1st square mostly and has a Barnsly haft) 4 and 5 are my round awls and used for inseaming,beside it #6 is my broken sickle shape German awl, very old and highly respected, it has been with me for more than twenty years and i sew all my light welted shoes/boots and the German (alpine) welt itself with it # 7&8 are pegging awls and 9 and the last is replaceable awl halt, the awls on the flat i made from broken awls and i use for closing of uppers, the hafts i made out of once oak table top.
Nasser
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
Steel hardens when it is cooled at a rate fast enough to set the structure. Too slow a cooling will not harden in fact a very slow cooling is called anealing where the steel is made as soft as possible. If you want to know the details you can study "nose diagrams" for various steel which show the speed the cooling has to take place at to freeze the steel as martensite.
You will in very general terms hear about air hardening steels, steel that hardens in the air (essentially can't be annealed); oil hardening which are cooled in various oils at slowish rate; water hardening, even faster; brine solutions; lye solutions; And the Super Quench. A hard oil like lard is slower than some household oils, not sure how it compares to something like a texaco quenching oil.
O1 stands for oil hardening, 1 in the series, and is actually a gage block steel for precision instruments, but it is a good general tool steel with characteristics of a run of the mill high carbon steel, and some similarities in the end result to "Cast" steels from the 19th century. It comes flat and true in plates and rods which is great for people without a surface grinder.
The tool also determines the quench to some extent. Very fine tools can need a little extra protection because they will cool more quickly due to form. So where a knife might cool nicely in something like 140 degree olive oil or mineral oil (apparently sold at horse supplies in 5 gallon containers for cheap). A small tool might like the even slower quench of the hard lard. It probably won't make much difference. I wouldn't hesitate to use either.
For the occasional heat treater, edible liquid oils can be a pain to store. I have a roasting pan full of the stuff always threatening to spill, kinda unpleasant for a thing I use once or twice a year. A good solution there is something like Wayne Goddard's goop which is made up of lard, candles, and hydraulic fluid, stays hard and is actually pretty fast.
Wayne Goddard's book the 50 Dollar Knife Shop is my highest recomendation. There are some other tool making books that are really good, but Wayne's uses all the newish stuff that makes a smithy real for the small guy. I stayed away from smithing for years because everything seemed so expensive and cumbersome. All the problems have been solved. And that is for smithing, for just some heat treating it's a lot less money and trouble. Wayne has a second book, and the books by Ed Fowler are good too. These are all knife emphasis, but the rest can be adapted. Weygers books are great for the small tool maker, but the forge technology is old school. The next step up from a torch is a coffee can forge, or a one brick forge. You can find lots on these on the internet.
Good forums are the bladeforum, and Don Fogg's forum. But this is really getting too complicated for what is wanted here. Ron Reils forge and burner site is good, Hybridburners, Zoeller forge. There is a lot of stuff and smiths will make pretty much anything. I want to build a small rolling mill some day.
Another point is that there are lots of steels that can be scavenged to make tools. Parts of machines, springs, etc... O1 is nice because it is a nice steel in a clean package, but there are other alternatives that are free. Do not heat anything that is plated. Work only with raw clean stock.
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/
Look at Safety III
You will in very general terms hear about air hardening steels, steel that hardens in the air (essentially can't be annealed); oil hardening which are cooled in various oils at slowish rate; water hardening, even faster; brine solutions; lye solutions; And the Super Quench. A hard oil like lard is slower than some household oils, not sure how it compares to something like a texaco quenching oil.
O1 stands for oil hardening, 1 in the series, and is actually a gage block steel for precision instruments, but it is a good general tool steel with characteristics of a run of the mill high carbon steel, and some similarities in the end result to "Cast" steels from the 19th century. It comes flat and true in plates and rods which is great for people without a surface grinder.
The tool also determines the quench to some extent. Very fine tools can need a little extra protection because they will cool more quickly due to form. So where a knife might cool nicely in something like 140 degree olive oil or mineral oil (apparently sold at horse supplies in 5 gallon containers for cheap). A small tool might like the even slower quench of the hard lard. It probably won't make much difference. I wouldn't hesitate to use either.
For the occasional heat treater, edible liquid oils can be a pain to store. I have a roasting pan full of the stuff always threatening to spill, kinda unpleasant for a thing I use once or twice a year. A good solution there is something like Wayne Goddard's goop which is made up of lard, candles, and hydraulic fluid, stays hard and is actually pretty fast.
Wayne Goddard's book the 50 Dollar Knife Shop is my highest recomendation. There are some other tool making books that are really good, but Wayne's uses all the newish stuff that makes a smithy real for the small guy. I stayed away from smithing for years because everything seemed so expensive and cumbersome. All the problems have been solved. And that is for smithing, for just some heat treating it's a lot less money and trouble. Wayne has a second book, and the books by Ed Fowler are good too. These are all knife emphasis, but the rest can be adapted. Weygers books are great for the small tool maker, but the forge technology is old school. The next step up from a torch is a coffee can forge, or a one brick forge. You can find lots on these on the internet.
Good forums are the bladeforum, and Don Fogg's forum. But this is really getting too complicated for what is wanted here. Ron Reils forge and burner site is good, Hybridburners, Zoeller forge. There is a lot of stuff and smiths will make pretty much anything. I want to build a small rolling mill some day.
Another point is that there are lots of steels that can be scavenged to make tools. Parts of machines, springs, etc... O1 is nice because it is a nice steel in a clean package, but there are other alternatives that are free. Do not heat anything that is plated. Work only with raw clean stock.
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/
Look at Safety III
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
Nasser, thanks for the show and tell. What diameter range are the awls themselves, for shoe size work? That is something I need to nail down before I make anything. If I find some awls before that I may not get any further, but I am keeping busy till the books come.
I reviewed my order and see I have a last making video and a book coming also. I guess I am doomed.
I reviewed my order and see I have a last making video and a book coming also. I guess I am doomed.
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dearbone
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Thom,
Unfortunately i don't have a calliper,i always wanted one,if i can borrow one i will measure and if i can't,i guess if you are in the area next time, stop by the shop, take a look and measure yourself,the length of the a shoe sewing awl is about 7cm and square or stitching awl is about 8cm,their diameters and shapes differ depending on by who and where they are made.
Brendan, I heard it is -34 in Regina this morning,i don't know how you keep warm and work in temperature like this!
Regards
Nasser
(Message edited by dearbone on January 26, 2009)
Unfortunately i don't have a calliper,i always wanted one,if i can borrow one i will measure and if i can't,i guess if you are in the area next time, stop by the shop, take a look and measure yourself,the length of the a shoe sewing awl is about 7cm and square or stitching awl is about 8cm,their diameters and shapes differ depending on by who and where they are made.
Brendan, I heard it is -34 in Regina this morning,i don't know how you keep warm and work in temperature like this!
Regards
Nasser
(Message edited by dearbone on January 26, 2009)
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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- Full Name: Brendan Balon
- Location: Fort Qu'Appelle, SK, Canada
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Re: Tools of the Trade
ThomD
Damp leather is easier to sew. and and these cold temperatures your Relative Humidity drops and like wood, leather shrinks. Around here the RH is a concept only 17% with out boiling water so your nose don't dry up.
Thom I just heard a place is clearing out old lasts and they are shipping 70 pair to me. I have no idea what they look like but will pass along ASAP.
Nasser in my shop I have Radient heat in the floor. But were I'm working doing construction to support my shoemaking addiction we just got a furnace in last week. Propane heaters lots of lights and a few layers keep you warm. So does a glass of red wine at days end. From the news I see your getting a good share of cold also. Just for the record with wind chill -45 this AM. If you don't have a good battery and block heater your sunk!!
Damp leather is easier to sew. and and these cold temperatures your Relative Humidity drops and like wood, leather shrinks. Around here the RH is a concept only 17% with out boiling water so your nose don't dry up.
Thom I just heard a place is clearing out old lasts and they are shipping 70 pair to me. I have no idea what they look like but will pass along ASAP.
Nasser in my shop I have Radient heat in the floor. But were I'm working doing construction to support my shoemaking addiction we just got a furnace in last week. Propane heaters lots of lights and a few layers keep you warm. So does a glass of red wine at days end. From the news I see your getting a good share of cold also. Just for the record with wind chill -45 this AM. If you don't have a good battery and block heater your sunk!!
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
Gets much colder than that and you can't turn the car off! I'm an enemy of wind chill. It's just the broadcasters way of overdramatizing weather. Sure it's colder in the wind, but around here there isn't any constancy in the wind: it can be 70 miles an hour on one street, and zero on the next. They often don't get the weather trend right let alone playing around with prediction on local wind currents.
Radiant floor heating Brendan? That's almost unCanadian. I'd press my nose against the window and look in if I though I could get it back off again.
Nasser, I have some extra calipers kicking around I can bring one next time I am downtown.
One consequence of some time spent machining, and a lot of time woodworking is I can eyeball a dimension. I knocked out this tool on my lathe to speed up changing my tire (hey it's cold! see paragraph one above). It needed to fit in my drill driver so be no thicker that 3/8". I just eyeballed it and it came out at 371 thou, a 4 thou error, Sorry I will do better next time! Seriously I don't have the courage to try that for a best 2 out of 3, but I wasn't all that surprised.
Brendan, I got my last making info in the mail from Tim Skyrme yesterday. I'm reading my way through, sounds simple enough... I would like to hear more about your lasts. I do have folks in the family who have normal feet. So picking up something ready made there might make sense. What with the vicissitudes of girls footwear tastes, I can't see much business with the children, but maybe the wife. My feet are a little chopped up from various accidents. So I am leaning towards making something custom there. I'm just as likely to mess that process up from scratch as building up a last. I'm a great believer in the idea that one can nail just about anything the second time. The first time is always a bit of a risk.
Back on topic:
I see there is a pattern in Tim's book for a Skiving knife. That would seem like a good project for a little spare time. He mentions 1/16th inch as a good thickness for such a knife which is pretty thin. What do others think? I can see a thin edge to razor through the material, does everyone else feel the same about a really thin blade? I think the other blade I have for this kind of purpose is also very thin so I am inclined to go thin unless they are just thin in order to save money, or make it possible for workers to bend them to their preferences (Tim's is curved).
Radiant floor heating Brendan? That's almost unCanadian. I'd press my nose against the window and look in if I though I could get it back off again.
Nasser, I have some extra calipers kicking around I can bring one next time I am downtown.
One consequence of some time spent machining, and a lot of time woodworking is I can eyeball a dimension. I knocked out this tool on my lathe to speed up changing my tire (hey it's cold! see paragraph one above). It needed to fit in my drill driver so be no thicker that 3/8". I just eyeballed it and it came out at 371 thou, a 4 thou error, Sorry I will do better next time! Seriously I don't have the courage to try that for a best 2 out of 3, but I wasn't all that surprised.
Brendan, I got my last making info in the mail from Tim Skyrme yesterday. I'm reading my way through, sounds simple enough... I would like to hear more about your lasts. I do have folks in the family who have normal feet. So picking up something ready made there might make sense. What with the vicissitudes of girls footwear tastes, I can't see much business with the children, but maybe the wife. My feet are a little chopped up from various accidents. So I am leaning towards making something custom there. I'm just as likely to mess that process up from scratch as building up a last. I'm a great believer in the idea that one can nail just about anything the second time. The first time is always a bit of a risk.
Back on topic:
I see there is a pattern in Tim's book for a Skiving knife. That would seem like a good project for a little spare time. He mentions 1/16th inch as a good thickness for such a knife which is pretty thin. What do others think? I can see a thin edge to razor through the material, does everyone else feel the same about a really thin blade? I think the other blade I have for this kind of purpose is also very thin so I am inclined to go thin unless they are just thin in order to save money, or make it possible for workers to bend them to their preferences (Tim's is curved).
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artzend
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Brendan
You can keep your cold weather, I can't even think that far down the thermometer. I'm here in shorts and no shirt (or shoes).
That knife is a Don Carlos mass produced knife. I have found them to be really good and have used that one for years.
As to thickness, I think that most knives of that sort are around the same thickness, my Barnsley knives are similar, and I have seen really flexible thin knives from the US, and watched a Chinese guy with something like a chisel, so you can take your pick.
Tim
You can keep your cold weather, I can't even think that far down the thermometer. I'm here in shorts and no shirt (or shoes).
That knife is a Don Carlos mass produced knife. I have found them to be really good and have used that one for years.
As to thickness, I think that most knives of that sort are around the same thickness, my Barnsley knives are similar, and I have seen really flexible thin knives from the US, and watched a Chinese guy with something like a chisel, so you can take your pick.
Tim
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Tim
As for the cold they tell us it builds "character "
!!
No Bugs or crawely things but lots of deer to bounce off your car/truck.
To help ThomD with the great sciving blade I have seen and used knives as flexable as a fish filleting knife to a fairly stout knife. My preferance is the Tina 970 for your right handers
Thom it is curved back so your hand has a place to go and the blade lies flat and it has a cross section sort of ovoid with the fatter center to the rear. A slight hollow grind and a flat back, you can cut like a pro.
Gee they just said on the radio up to + 2C tomorrow time to start looken go the shorts and a brew
BB
As for the cold they tell us it builds "character "
!! No Bugs or crawely things but lots of deer to bounce off your car/truck.
To help ThomD with the great sciving blade I have seen and used knives as flexable as a fish filleting knife to a fairly stout knife. My preferance is the Tina 970 for your right handers
Thom it is curved back so your hand has a place to go and the blade lies flat and it has a cross section sort of ovoid with the fatter center to the rear. A slight hollow grind and a flat back, you can cut like a pro.
Gee they just said on the radio up to + 2C tomorrow time to start looken go the shorts and a brew
BB
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dearbone
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Thom,
It just came to my mind when you were talking about books,that DW Frommer has put out two books of Golding on shoe and boot making that can be down loaded from the HCC, there is so much learned and to be learn form these books that i want to thank DW for his time and effort providing us with such a valuable resource.
Nasser
It just came to my mind when you were talking about books,that DW Frommer has put out two books of Golding on shoe and boot making that can be down loaded from the HCC, there is so much learned and to be learn form these books that i want to thank DW for his time and effort providing us with such a valuable resource.
Nasser
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big_larry
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Re: Tools of the Trade
If I may add one other bit of information before the heat treatment issues fade away.
In 1966 I was attending "Trade Tech'" and studying to be a machinest. I had the opportunity to attend welding and forging classes. I was already a knife maker and it was just natural to gravitate to the forging classes. One of the training films was a presentation from the Gray Hound Bus folks who had been studying axel failure. They had forged axels in their busses and once in a while one would snap into. They determined that it was large grain structure that had weakened the axels. They traced this large grain structure to over heating in the initial heat treating. They would first harden the axel and then draw (tempor) it to the desired toughness level. The problem was that the workers were not monitering the first heat and after reaching the "dull cherry red-loss of magnetic attraction) and would continue heating. After the temprature starts to raise above the ideal temp the grainular structure increases dramatically in size and keeps its size through the quenching and temporing process. At first the experts thought that the axel had failed from fatigue and that the large grain structure was "crystalization." A careful research found the problem was overheating in the initial hardening.
The only way to re-capture the small grain, and thus the stringer bond, was to completely cool the part and re-heat it up the the ideal temp'. being careful not to exceed the critical temp.
I have a 4 gallon liquid nitrogen bottle in my shop to further aid in the hardening process. I have came to the conclusion that it is not really worth the trouble when it comes to knife making.
I skive with a 6 inch long, 3/32 thick blade that looks like a filleting knife. It is hardened but still has some give or bend. I still keep an 18 inch butchers steel to condition the edge and some very large flat stones to touch it up after conditioning no longer provides any benefit.
I make my own awls and use 0-1 (oil hardening drill rod) and A-2 (air hardening 1% carbon) steel. I start with 1/8th round stock and hammer it to rough shape. I like the flattened and rounded point as they cut with ease. "But to each his own."
Well as usual I probably told you more than you wanted to know. But, for what it's worth.
Thank you for tolerating me,
Larry Peterson HCC-member
In 1966 I was attending "Trade Tech'" and studying to be a machinest. I had the opportunity to attend welding and forging classes. I was already a knife maker and it was just natural to gravitate to the forging classes. One of the training films was a presentation from the Gray Hound Bus folks who had been studying axel failure. They had forged axels in their busses and once in a while one would snap into. They determined that it was large grain structure that had weakened the axels. They traced this large grain structure to over heating in the initial heat treating. They would first harden the axel and then draw (tempor) it to the desired toughness level. The problem was that the workers were not monitering the first heat and after reaching the "dull cherry red-loss of magnetic attraction) and would continue heating. After the temprature starts to raise above the ideal temp the grainular structure increases dramatically in size and keeps its size through the quenching and temporing process. At first the experts thought that the axel had failed from fatigue and that the large grain structure was "crystalization." A careful research found the problem was overheating in the initial hardening.
The only way to re-capture the small grain, and thus the stringer bond, was to completely cool the part and re-heat it up the the ideal temp'. being careful not to exceed the critical temp.
I have a 4 gallon liquid nitrogen bottle in my shop to further aid in the hardening process. I have came to the conclusion that it is not really worth the trouble when it comes to knife making.
I skive with a 6 inch long, 3/32 thick blade that looks like a filleting knife. It is hardened but still has some give or bend. I still keep an 18 inch butchers steel to condition the edge and some very large flat stones to touch it up after conditioning no longer provides any benefit.
I make my own awls and use 0-1 (oil hardening drill rod) and A-2 (air hardening 1% carbon) steel. I start with 1/8th round stock and hammer it to rough shape. I like the flattened and rounded point as they cut with ease. "But to each his own."
Well as usual I probably told you more than you wanted to know. But, for what it's worth.
Thank you for tolerating me,
Larry Peterson HCC-member
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
Good information Larry. I had a set of chisels made by an excellent maker, and he offered me the chance to get some of them is an experimental Chryo version, Nitrogen heat treatment. One of those later split right up the beefy ferulle, and none of the chryod ones showed any improvement over the regular O1 ones in edge holding which is the objective in that case. There must be something to it because it is done in industry, but I don't know too many knife makers who seem to bother. There is coverage in the Ed Fowler books of his experiments, and I think he found an improvement in performance, but I don't know that he stuck with it. There are a number of ways of getting improvements without chryo. Sounds like you have some of the same experiences.
I should mention that Ed Fowler and Wayne Goddard's books, are actually collections of magazine articles, but the $50 book hangs together pretty well, and the others are pretty interesting.
I should mention that Ed Fowler and Wayne Goddard's books, are actually collections of magazine articles, but the $50 book hangs together pretty well, and the others are pretty interesting.
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dw
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Thom, Larry, all,
I have sure enjoyed this conversation but as it slowly gets more technical (more power to you guys) the more I think that one of you (or more) could make a nice little income on the side making sewing and inseaming awls.
My students are always clamouring for awls---"where can I get them," "what's the best brand," etc.. I have even taken to making awl hafts and mounting an awl in them to sell to the students who come through here. But the added price of the awl...since it comes from my limited and very finite stock...is not cheap. Because I sharpen the awl and mount it in the haft, I feel it is a fair deal. But I can't do this indefinitely without I run out of awls myself.
It would be nice to know that there was another...and another, and yet another...good, reliable source for awls. And yes, I know Dick makes them and I have used and have nothing but praise for his awls. But a single source is only one source away from no source. And when there are several sources you often get a range of prices and styles that might not be available in a single source.
Anyway, I'd be interested in exploring this idea further with anyone that wanted to look into it...PM me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I have sure enjoyed this conversation but as it slowly gets more technical (more power to you guys) the more I think that one of you (or more) could make a nice little income on the side making sewing and inseaming awls.
My students are always clamouring for awls---"where can I get them," "what's the best brand," etc.. I have even taken to making awl hafts and mounting an awl in them to sell to the students who come through here. But the added price of the awl...since it comes from my limited and very finite stock...is not cheap. Because I sharpen the awl and mount it in the haft, I feel it is a fair deal. But I can't do this indefinitely without I run out of awls myself.
It would be nice to know that there was another...and another, and yet another...good, reliable source for awls. And yes, I know Dick makes them and I have used and have nothing but praise for his awls. But a single source is only one source away from no source. And when there are several sources you often get a range of prices and styles that might not be available in a single source.
Anyway, I'd be interested in exploring this idea further with anyone that wanted to look into it...PM me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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jesselee
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- Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
- Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA
Re: Tools of the Trade
DW
Overworked here with website examples and orders. But in Feb. BIG Jake my long time apprentice and now journeyman and I will be making an assortment of awls and the elusive pegging awl. I taught Jake how to make knives and awls back in the 80's (that sounds soooo old timey). When we are set up I will send off a bunch for you to try out.
Now, to making shoes with a knife and fork... Y'all know I had to jump in here. That was an old apprentice test. It applied back in civilized times when table knives and forks were real steel.
The forks had 3 closely spaced tines, the knives were thin and held a danged good edge for cutting and skiving a feather edge. My shop Master asked me to use these two common utensils
and I figured it out. I still have his knife that was cut down and angled just right for cutting.
Like 64 to the inch, it is thinking it through... Tiny awl, tiny thread, tiny needle....
Tool making should be mandatory for apprentices. Teach them the basic and let them make the awls, hafts, knives etc to fit their hands.
Cheers,
JesseLee
Overworked here with website examples and orders. But in Feb. BIG Jake my long time apprentice and now journeyman and I will be making an assortment of awls and the elusive pegging awl. I taught Jake how to make knives and awls back in the 80's (that sounds soooo old timey). When we are set up I will send off a bunch for you to try out.
Now, to making shoes with a knife and fork... Y'all know I had to jump in here. That was an old apprentice test. It applied back in civilized times when table knives and forks were real steel.
The forks had 3 closely spaced tines, the knives were thin and held a danged good edge for cutting and skiving a feather edge. My shop Master asked me to use these two common utensils
and I figured it out. I still have his knife that was cut down and angled just right for cutting.
Like 64 to the inch, it is thinking it through... Tiny awl, tiny thread, tiny needle....
Tool making should be mandatory for apprentices. Teach them the basic and let them make the awls, hafts, knives etc to fit their hands.
Cheers,
JesseLee
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dw
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Nasser,
I shouldn't brag (or is it complain??) but I only have 14 more pages to do in Golding vol. I. Of course (and here's where the complaining comes in, I guess) that includes four really long and difficult tables, several complex illustrations and all of the index and all of the linking (from index to text and from TOC to text).
But I can almost see the light--it's kind of like coming through a curved tunnel...you know the end is just around the bend and you can see the glow but you can't quite see the opening yet.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I shouldn't brag (or is it complain??) but I only have 14 more pages to do in Golding vol. I. Of course (and here's where the complaining comes in, I guess) that includes four really long and difficult tables, several complex illustrations and all of the index and all of the linking (from index to text and from TOC to text).
But I can almost see the light--it's kind of like coming through a curved tunnel...you know the end is just around the bend and you can see the glow but you can't quite see the opening yet.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
Thaks Nasser, and DW
I have downloaded those books at snail speed. And have refered to them quite a bit.
I should add given my original request for a list of tools, there is a very good one in Tim's book.
I have downloaded those books at snail speed. And have refered to them quite a bit.
I should add given my original request for a list of tools, there is a very good one in Tim's book.
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dearbone
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Re: Tools of the Trade
DW,
I think you are in title to do both, i am sure it is a heavy undertaking and as a beneficiary of the your first two books, i want to thank you very much and looking forward to the next one whenever it is ready.
I was reading about how to soak leather in water the other day,and in Golding it said, that an earthen clay bowl or glazed with cover is the best,it wouldn't stain the sole leather and so forth,i have been looking for this earthen bowl lately.
Nasser
I think you are in title to do both, i am sure it is a heavy undertaking and as a beneficiary of the your first two books, i want to thank you very much and looking forward to the next one whenever it is ready.
I was reading about how to soak leather in water the other day,and in Golding it said, that an earthen clay bowl or glazed with cover is the best,it wouldn't stain the sole leather and so forth,i have been looking for this earthen bowl lately.
Nasser
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lancepryor
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Re: Tools of the Trade
DW:
I am very much looking forward to seeing the completed Vol. I of Golding. When in London I went to the British Library to look at their copy of Tebbutt, which alas I found to be of virtually no value, so the prospect of having a good reference on lastmaking is exciting indeed.
Nasser:
I would imagine that Golding reference to a glazed bowl was to contrast with what, at the time, was likely the alternative -- a cast-iron container, the iron from which could quite likely have caused discoloration or staining of the leather. Today, what with plastic, stainless steel, and glass alternatives, I wouldn't imagine the choice is that big a deal. The maker I observed in London used a big plastic container to soak his leather.
Still, the earthenware container sounds nice; just don't drop it!
Lance
I am very much looking forward to seeing the completed Vol. I of Golding. When in London I went to the British Library to look at their copy of Tebbutt, which alas I found to be of virtually no value, so the prospect of having a good reference on lastmaking is exciting indeed.
Nasser:
I would imagine that Golding reference to a glazed bowl was to contrast with what, at the time, was likely the alternative -- a cast-iron container, the iron from which could quite likely have caused discoloration or staining of the leather. Today, what with plastic, stainless steel, and glass alternatives, I wouldn't imagine the choice is that big a deal. The maker I observed in London used a big plastic container to soak his leather.
Still, the earthenware container sounds nice; just don't drop it!
Lance
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dearbone
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Re: Tools of the Trade
lance,
I wish i could find the section i was reading,i totally agree that metal containers are big NO to soak leather in,but i think he was also talking about the softness earthenware add the leather,he also mentions adding "mulling liquor to the water, i am not sure i know what "mulling liquor is? I need to say also that i don't use the good oak bark that barely need long time soaking,but inferior leather for hand sew/stitching process and it comes from Brazil, Argentina or Mexico.
Nasser
I wish i could find the section i was reading,i totally agree that metal containers are big NO to soak leather in,but i think he was also talking about the softness earthenware add the leather,he also mentions adding "mulling liquor to the water, i am not sure i know what "mulling liquor is? I need to say also that i don't use the good oak bark that barely need long time soaking,but inferior leather for hand sew/stitching process and it comes from Brazil, Argentina or Mexico.
Nasser
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thomd
Re: Tools of the Trade
I don't know what that is, though liquor often means any liquid preparation. So one might hear of a dye liquor, meaning a liquid dye preparation. Mulling means a heated sweatened drink. So it could just be hot water... though it probably is something a little more than that.
I should add that I thought there were not going to be further volumes of Golding added, so that is good news.
I should add that I thought there were not going to be further volumes of Golding added, so that is good news.
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dmcharg
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Re: Tools of the Trade
OK. trying again.
Now the camera I have at my disposal is a 1.3meg web cam, so they're not world class though a couple of the folding knife pictures came up very well. Here goes.
The smoothing bone. Lamb shank
My clicking, chanelling, sole cutting, rounding up etc. knife. I made out of a car valvespring and the tang goes all the way through the handle.
My pictorial signature I put on my drawings; though ironicaly I rarely use my round knife these days
Another valve spring knife, this time with a sheep shank slab handle. I did the flat disk on the end of the tang by heating red hot, placeing over edge of toe on childs steel last and smacking with the hammer
I badly tempered it so doesn't hold an edge too well. Looks nice though
And lastly for something a bit different. I printed out DW's 2 scanned old shoemaking books(on the library printer putting it through twice to, odds-evens, to get both sides. We have a brilliant librarian) and a year or two ago I bound the first one. Do the other one sometime.
I think I've taken up enough space for today.
Cheers
Duncan
Now the camera I have at my disposal is a 1.3meg web cam, so they're not world class though a couple of the folding knife pictures came up very well. Here goes.
The smoothing bone. Lamb shank
My clicking, chanelling, sole cutting, rounding up etc. knife. I made out of a car valvespring and the tang goes all the way through the handle.
My pictorial signature I put on my drawings; though ironicaly I rarely use my round knife these days
Another valve spring knife, this time with a sheep shank slab handle. I did the flat disk on the end of the tang by heating red hot, placeing over edge of toe on childs steel last and smacking with the hammer
I badly tempered it so doesn't hold an edge too well. Looks nice though
And lastly for something a bit different. I printed out DW's 2 scanned old shoemaking books(on the library printer putting it through twice to, odds-evens, to get both sides. We have a brilliant librarian) and a year or two ago I bound the first one. Do the other one sometime.
I think I've taken up enough space for today.
Cheers
Duncan
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chuck_deats
Re: Tools of the Trade
Duncan, Nice pictures. I like decorated tools, although not very good at it. How are you getting the round knife logo onto the steel? Like the filework on the folding knife. That is an art form in it's self. Chuck
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dmcharg
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Re: Tools of the Trade
Thanks Chuck,
I've got a Dremmel and a large batch of cheap generic bits, grinding stones etc. for it, so I used a fine dimond frosted ball bit to do the logo (need more practice). And I think I used a fine cylindrical dimond bit to clean up the edge work on the folder after I'd done the filing. I drew the design on with indellable marker first, then got rid of it
The interlocking ring pattern is from a viking era folding knife found in York.
I might try re-tempering it at some point by submerging the handle and tang in a tub of water and heating up the blade red hot with a blowtorch, drop in the water, then *very* carefully warm it up for tempering.
I've done this before ;with the sheeps foot knife. If you look near the logo you will see a bit of brown scorching. Had trouble keeping it in the right spot.
Cheers
Duncan
I've got a Dremmel and a large batch of cheap generic bits, grinding stones etc. for it, so I used a fine dimond frosted ball bit to do the logo (need more practice). And I think I used a fine cylindrical dimond bit to clean up the edge work on the folder after I'd done the filing. I drew the design on with indellable marker first, then got rid of it
The interlocking ring pattern is from a viking era folding knife found in York.
I might try re-tempering it at some point by submerging the handle and tang in a tub of water and heating up the blade red hot with a blowtorch, drop in the water, then *very* carefully warm it up for tempering.
I've done this before
;with the sheeps foot knife. If you look near the logo you will see a bit of brown scorching. Had trouble keeping it in the right spot. Cheers
Duncan