Tools of the Trade

[jake]

D.W.,

Thanks for the reference. I was gonna ask you where you got it, but forgot. I'll check out the recipe.

Gary,

Now I understand. Pretty neat trick! I learn something here all the time. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Lisa,

I hear ya! It's getting harder and harder to find a clean spot for nice leather around my shop. Let us know what you think about the "no-wax" technique. Actually, you do have wax. It's already on the taper. I noticed last night, the more you sew with the taper, the harder more burnished the wax gets on the taper. And I thought it was just paraffin.

[dw]

Janne,

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not sure what you think was needlessly provocative, given that it was *you* that asked me to expand upon my experiences with shoe repair. But, regardless, I think there's something you should know about me and, by inference, the forum.

I didn't invent shallow groove channeling. I didn't invent diagonal cut channeling. I didn't invent split nylon bristles, nor blond hand wax, nor wooden pegs, nor skived plug inlay work, nor leather toe boxes, nor holing the insole, nor...well, *anything*. Maybe the closest I have ever come is the lace-up tongue crimper...and even that was derivative--something Dan Freeman said to me.

So, I don't have any part of my self-image, or my self-esteem wrapped up in whether these techniques are good, better or worse. I have never felt that my honor, or my prestige, or even my sense of being respected was on the line when I was talking about these issues. My approach is purely analytical, and I can be just as critical if my own techniques as anyone else--witness my switch from diagonal channeling, or my switch from black wax to blond. I'll change in a New York minute if I am convinced it will make a better boot.

I appreciate your explanation about the gemming. At least we get an insight into your thinking and your reasons. That helps newbies, it helps journeymen, and it even helps the "ranking" masters (although I don't count myself among that crowd). I have no problem conceding that gemming is fast (it is, as far as I know, a technique that originated in the factory to get around the bottleneck of channeling the welt) or that it is cheap (here in the States it is most often associated with "paper" insoles) or even that you, personally, have never had any problems with it (even if true it doesn't wipe away my own numerous *negative* experiences with it).

But if everyone were to take personal offense, or bridle at the suggestion that there may be trade-offs, and inherent flaws, with every technique, and that these trade-offs are legitimate topics for discussion...in a bootmaking forum...then we, none of us, have anything to talk about. Chi-chat gets old, can be done in private email, or AIM or IRC, and doesn't need a bootmaker's forum to justify...and besides I'm not very good at chit-chat. So you'll not get much satisfaction in that regard from me.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jake,

Just a question for you simply because I doubt I'll ever use the waxed tapers (I like the results I get with unwaxed Teklon and a sticky hand wax). But for curiosity's sake...are you getting a "wax lock" with the paraffin? (I think it *is* paraffin--I called Ludlow on it years ago and that's what they told me. It's a synthetic beeswax derived from petroleum...ie. paraffin).

And you say "the more you sew with the taper, the harder more burnished the wax gets." If the wax is getting harder, is it melting enough to seal the holes made by the awl in the insole and vamps?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[bct]

In my humble experience of making flax thread waxed ends, Inseaming and channeling 300 to 400 pair of handmade boots with a channeled insole, I never did see one of these break out/break thru the insole. Recently in the last 4 years using the poly strings, I have noticed a great improvement in the strength of the inseam strings and they don't rot with time or moisture around the toe.


"Riding For The Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

[gaid]

D.W.

It was of course not your opinion about the gemming that I thought was needlessly provocative. On the contrary, I like to be examend. That gives me mostly a push to the right direction.

No, it was when you said;
"I don't mean to offend and my comments are not aimed specifically at you, Tex, or Janne, or anyone else but at attitudes that destroy trust and sharing and learning."

By saying that you not aimed it specifically at Tex, me or anyone else, who do you think have those attitudes you where talking about? Anyhow, I couldn't read it in any other way then that you indicated there are some of us here who have attitudes which is negative for the forum! Im my eys this is a provocative thing to say. And I don't think indications like this is a legitimate topics for discussion on a bootmaking forum. I just wanted you to know how I read and understand your posting. If I have read you wrong, I do apologies.

JEM

[cmw]

Janne

Thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind. I must admit that I should have thought of it myself though!

Ya'll take care.

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

Yes, I think you're getting a wax lock, but I have to be honest, it's not to the same degree as I'm used to. But then again, I wasn't getting the wax lock with dacron as I was with linen either. I know this is a slippery slope once you start, but I think the wax gave me a "adequate" lock. I've been thinking on trying some of my "locking" knots on every stitch to give me some more confidence with the lock. Maybe we're splitting hairs.

My main concern here is with the awl I use. It leaves a pretty big hole. But as the pictures above exhibit, I can put my stitches fairly close together. I'm wanting some extra wax to fill those holes! And again, I may be splitting hairs. With tapping your welt down while still wet, you close and compress those stitches and holes to some degree.

But I'll stick to my original statement, I was pleasantly surprised. The bristles stayed secured to the tapers. The wax heated up and locked the stitch, to an acceptable degree. It was a much cleaner operation...for sure! And I don't want to put much importance on this last comment, but I think it does play a role, it's much faster.

Have you got some Ludlow's tapers? If not, why not let me send ya some and give them a try. Won't hurt nothing.

Or r u gonna buy some pink Teklon? (big grin)

Adios, Ol'Buddy

[das]

All,

Sorry to be so long in weighing-in on this [insole channels]. I'm rushing this AM to get up to Old Sturbridge Village, Mass. by 5:00, for the guild's annual meeting, but as soon as the dust clears next week I'll try to "reveal" what I can offer, as well as some of "the dead guys" input as well. The debate whether to even cut any channel in the insole for welted, as well as turnshoes, stretches back into the 1700s--but I've not seen too many insoles from that period that are over 5-6 iron thick, many as thin as 5oz., and a few that were channeled too deep, and cut through.

More, later.

[jake]

Al,

It's about damn time! By gengers, we want to hear more from ya Martha! We'll be waiting......

Have a good time this weekend. I'm sorry I can't be with ya. Make sure you toast one, or two, or... for me! Have a good one and tell everyone I said "hey".

[dw]

Janne,

I see where you're coming from and I both accept your apology and offer one of my own.

Let me point out however, that all too often, in my tenure as webmaster and moderator on this Forum I have had to deal with individuals whose sole purpose in posting seems to be to oppose and contradict. And as who I am...DW... for better or worse, I have also seemed to be a pretty big target for more than one of these individuals. I'm not complaining necessarily. It comes with the territory, and short of things becoming personalized I have, at one time or other defended even my worst enemy's right to their opinion, too.

However, in this case, I have to admit to being fed up. I didn't want to single out any one person but I did want to single an attitude. At the time of that post I was actively talking to you--answering your question/challenge about what I have seen while repairing (no problem) and I was having to deal with, what I considered, another in a seemingly endless series of non-productive, non-helpful, pointedly personalized criticisms. I don't chit-chat well and I am terribly clumsy at being tactful (maybe getting a little better as I gain experience). I didn't want to offend anyone but I did want to address the issue. Since I was talking to several people almost simultaneously, I felt it necessary to qualify my statement. I was trying to be tactful. Had I not done so, the statement would have been even more open to interpretation and by more individuals than two.

In the end there *are* some "who have attitudes which is (are) negative for the forum." Maybe we all do at one time or another. But we don't all have negative attitudes all the time. [We can talk about these kinds of attitudes (not individuals) in greater detail privately if you want but it does no one any good to dwell on them after the fact. And I, pointedly, determinedly, try not to gossip or denigrate people behind their backs.] Nevertheless, as moderator, it is my responsibility to try to curb those excesses (tactfully, if possible...as tactful as I know how) or, if they cannot...or will not...be curbed, **eliminate** them! Pure and simple.

At some point, if you really want "trust" ("...sharing and learning" ), you have to stop reading into other folks remarks what you *think* might be there. It ought to be sufficient to read what *is* there. You have to take folks at face value. In my case, I'm simply not that deep. I am a simple man with a somewhat larger-than-usual vocabulary and a love of the language. But I say what I mean and try not to embed hidden criticisms or meaning in my words.

We use "smileys" on the forum not to be cutesy. But because often there are sentiments that cannot be expressed fully in a text-only environment. It is easy to misunderstand if you are looking for hidden motive. If you think someone is being critical of you (allow/leave other people to deal with their issues and their relationships, themselves), bring it up...ask if they (or I) intended to criticize. Or point out that you feel offended. You did that in this series of posts...good on you. I hope that it has worked out to your satisfaction and that you understand no offense was intended.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jake,

Thank you for the offer.

I have plenty of Ludlow waxed strings. If you recall I showed you literally boxes of them while you were here.

Frankly, there are some techniques and some materials that inspire my confidence and some that, perhaps because of my repair experience, leave me cold. I may be wrong, and I'm sure I will hear about it if I am, but I doubt that most bootmakers, especially in the SW, do much in the way of repair. I have been told that. I have even encountered a certain disdain...maybe it's pity ...because I did repair. [ If a person has a shop out on main street and has customers coming in the door who want repair, and if you have the equipment and the materials sitting idle, it is only good business sense to put those machines to work. That's straight from Business 101 at the University of Minnesota.] But I don't regret it. In any case, I have seen problems that develop with certain techniques in all kinds of footwear...bespoke as well as commercial...that others may not have seen, even in their own boots, because they don't do repair.

In the case of inseam break out: in all the years I was diagonally channeling my insoles I only saw one of my own boots break out and that was a pair of nearly worn-out, ridden-hard-and-put-up-wet, personal boots. But I saw lots of off the shelf and semi custom and even a few custom boots break out when channeled this way. Perhaps it is not a major problem, especially on a thicker insole and especially done with care by a skilled bootmaker. But if the chance is there...and despite all the disclaimer, it *is* there...and there's a way to sidestep that possibility, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

In the case of Ludlow waxed strings, I am comfortable with a sticky hand wax. I understand and approve of the concepts and reasons for doing it that way. And, like you and Lisa, I am looking for a way to avoid the black smearing and the mess...without giving up the best of the hand wax. I guess bottom line is that knowing what I know about the Ludlow strings--having used them for probably 10 years or so--I'm not comfortable using them as is. Not when there's a better (in my mind) alternative.

So...thanks but no thanks. Keep experimenting, though. Keep an open mind. Not everyone will be comfortable with what I'm comfortable with.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[texrobinboots]

DW, et all,

DW,

Not bragging, just telling the truth as I see it and I believe that the test of time is one of the best measures of success in anything. As a kid of 15 I started out in my Father's shop to actually do work for customers and I had to do the repair, top stitching and floor sweeping. I also started doing some of the lasting, toes, inseaming, soles and heel finishing. In those days there was a lot of repair and Coleman was a thriving little town. There was a second generation saddlemaker(Bennet Nance)where our shop was in part of his large building. The building was also rigged to make buggys and had an elevator to run them from the second floor to the bottom when finished. Although buggys had not been made for years there, the reminders were still there. There was even a mark on the front door of the shop where some men had a gunfight in front of the shop and left some buckshot in the wood. In the 1800s a saloon was just across the street. There was also another bootmaker(Carl Tomlinson) and another Repair shop(Oscar Calhoun)when we arrived in the 50s.

In the 50s from our opening in 1954 we turned out a pair of boots per day with just my Father, Mother and myself. Boots were $ 32.50 starting price and there was no sales tax in those days.

Lots of experimenting was done in those days with things like toe box material. My Father was the inventor in the family and started making some toe boxes from his old trousers. The material was gaberdeen(sp) He would take three layers and apply them one at a time with Speed Cement(called Kayon in those days)again (sp) They held up very well but soon came the orthopedic celastic and the fight was over. This stuff was truly the invention of the century for the bootmaker. It was used with acetone only but was very messy on the hands but it worked. Then later in the 60s or possibly the early 70s there came the cut toe boxes called the 125 mil. And they are still made to this day...If the company ever goes out of business I will buy it myself. They don't need to be defended in my opinion and anyone who has used them in the right way will never return to the leather ones. I have used them myself since they came forth. And I have used leather ones too. I know exactly how to To leather toe boxes, round and square. I use the Celastic because it is better!

There is another little subject that keeps bobbing up here from time to time and that is the use of iron nails/tacks in boots. Used properly they work fine and do not corrode the leather out of a properly constructed boot. But if you prefer the brass ones like some do, us them! I don't use the nails in my shanks on new soles. I use them on factory boot repairs when only one or two pairs of re-soles will be done...Factory boots just don't hold up to more than one or two re-solings...

I also use iron tacks on some of my lasting in the heels and around the heels of some plated lasts. And in my long or as one might downgrade it to *not meaning much*, career of bootmaking I have NEVER seen a pair of my boots with rotted out heels because of the iron tacks. Proper spacing and the use of a heel pad and the use of all purpose cement has all but sealed off the modern cowboy boot from corrosion from iron tacks. I might add something here. I have been in this business a long time and there is not much that I haven't seen and there are not many things that I have not tried. I am not a stick in the mud and if there is anything that can be done better or quicker than the old ways , I will try it. I realize that saving time is not nearly as important as keeping quality so we will lay that little matter to rest. We are living in the days of modern inventions and my opinion of the ways of the old guys while being pioneers in this business, they didn't know what we know now or have at their disposal the resources or materials that we have. Some may disagree and that is fine but I will keep on making my boots the same way I have been unless I decide to change something and my customers will continue to buy them and I will have no regrets when my last pair of boots are finally made.

I would like to add here that I think some of the recent posts were downright insulting and I believe some adjusting of attitude could be had here on this forum..........TR

[gaid]

D.W.
Ok, I understand that no offense was intended so there is no need for you to ask for apologies.

However, this time, and others as well, I did not read anything into your remarks or tried to find what I *thought* might be there. I read you the way you wrote it down and that is the only thing you could expect from your readers. I don't have acces to your thoughts so I can see if you meant what you wrote or not. I think the idea of this forum is good, I like it. Being a forum reader for a coupple of years I'm sad to say that I miss a bunch of people who for some reason, no longer are posting on the forum. I hope they didn't leave because of missunderstandings like ours.

Well, that's all for now. I hope I'm not on the "soon to curbed list" ;-)

JEM

[casetradeboots]

All,

I am enjoying the conversation about different channelling techniques and inseaming materials. At the WF show, I belief Jake Dobbins was talking about "burnishing the stitch hole", Jake went on to say that by burnishing he was running his awl back and forth through the stitch holes rapidly. I tried this recently and also went back to the diagonal channel. The job of inseaming went so much soother for me I about jumped for joy.

Thanks Jake.........Floyd

[rileycraig]

Tex,

A word....Amen! Some of you need to fly your butts back down to earth with the rest of us mortals!

Riley

[dw]

Riley,

Quote----------------------------
Some of you need to fly your butts back down to earth with the rest of us mortals!
------------------------------------

It's this Internet thing...not sure I understand...please explain...

Who are you talking about and what do you mean?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[rileycraig]

DW,

I'm talking about ANYONE who has the nerve to show total disrespect to a fellow boot maker, and I mean TOTAL disrespect, whether he/she has been making boots for two years or twenty years....if the boot fits...

Riley

[bct]

Now the discussion is going some where, separating FACTORY boots from Handmade!

I too have seen FACTORY boots with innersole channels bust out, but not handmade boots I made, or worked on.

I too have see many FACTORY boots that the innersole rotted around the heel not for the tacks, but cheap leather and a lot o sweat, but not handmade boots I made or worked on.

DW I too have heard of some so called Bootmakers that do not know how to repair boots, many of the new so called Bootmakers have not paid their dues learning repair and their bootmaking suffers for it.

I too have an extensive repair background before bootmaking and continued doing repair after learning to make boots. And it made me a better Bootmaker, I guest the added experience of using a lip knife and trimming all repair sole by hand instead of using the 5 N 1 paid off!

I will try and post a PIC of my next 1/2 sole and show my almost invisible seam across the bottom of the boot shank area.

"Soling For The Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

[jake]

Floyd,

Good to hear from you! Glad that little burnishing tip has decrease your fustration. I haven't been to the Roundup that I didn't come home with at least one tip or suggestion. The camaraderie is priceless. Haven't met a person yet that hasn't wanted to talk shop and share any, and everything, with ya. Just a darn good gathering of people and information.

I think this Forum is equally priceless. It's the "electronic" equivalent of the Roundup. There may be some rowdy converstations sometimes, but basically everyone enjoys visiting and sharing ideas.

Like I said, good to hear from you. Now....don't be a stranger!

[dw]

Janne,

I am moving certain portions of our conversation over to "Rants...". Here:

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1023


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Riley,

I am answering you in "Rants... follow the same link as in my post to Janne.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tmattimore]

I do not seem to be able to post in the Rants as my password does not seem to work. I am dismayed by the tone a conversation on inseaming and knives has taken. Not having time this week to follow the conversation I read it in total this afternoon. IMHO umbrage has been taken where no insult was offered but old fueds seem to have fueled anger. I suggest that all combatants take time to reread the conversation.
We all have strong egos or we would not be doing this for a living. I read and post here because I love what I do and am always willing to learn more and teach what little I have learned. Until I bought lasting machinery last year I made 700 to 900 pair of boots and shoes per year. Does this mean I can no longer post here as I have gone modern? If Janne and others have figured out how to use the "PRIME" glue rib system with out the expensive machinery I want to hear about it. Just as I want to learn as much from the "dead guys" as possible since emulating them pays my bills. If there are those who choose to leave due to thin skins they should get tougher. Just as those whose words seem to give offense should give careful thought to how they appear before posting them.
This is the most communication shoe and boot makers have had in a thousand years and I would like it to continue.
Tmattimore

[gaid]

Tom

Regarding the "Prime" ribb system, I learnt the technique during my apprentice time in an orthopeadic shop. We where both sewing the welt on by hand and using the inseaming machine. The ribb where mounted on the insole in a simple way, we just cemented them on. Because of the varying shapes of the lasts we could not use the expensive machinery you mentioned. That's why they had "invented" a technique where they where not needed. It could be used if you want to sew the welt on from ball to ball, heel to heel or the whole way round.
The way you do it is; just mark on the insole where you want the edge of the ribb to be (depending of the thickness of the welt and the upper leather)and how much "under" you want the welt to be. Cement both the ribb and the insole let dry and mount it. That's it! Hope this help
JEM

[tmattimore]

Janne
Thanks. I assume you mount the rib to your margin and then last the upper. When I was repairing for a living I saw a lot of these in low end cowboy boots. The rib system and welt seemed to hold up much better then the insoles which often rotted way from the inside or the out soles which were often splits and rotted thru quickly. IMHO the best insoles are harness leather but the tallow makes it hard for glue to stick to. That is why I have been experimenting with sewing the welt on with a mckay The only problem is that changing my machine over and adjusting it takes a long time and I have been thinking of getting another and dedicating it to that task.
Tmattimore

[dw]

Tom,

Is there a leather that is like the harness leather but without the tallow?

I ask because I tallow up my insoles pretty good but they are not harness leather. So, I can tallow just the grain surface and not have to worry about glue sticking. On the other hand, I've been using the Upaco water based neoprene and it sticks to oily leather. I don't know whether that would be an option for you or not. Then again, there might be just so much tallow on the harness leather that nothing will stick to it. I've also seen (ordered some once upon a time) insoles that were "treated"...with what I'm not sure, but I seem to remember it was a butyl based oil. Nothing would stick to it, either.

Just some thoughts....


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member