Tools of the Trade

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JP

Re: Tools of the Trade

#426 Post by JP »

Janne:
I think that this method is called ribbed and is used on a lot of shoes today. Is this correct

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#427 Post by gaid »

JP
I don't know! I guess it have many names. Here in Europe I think it is used on most all GoodYear welted shoes.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#428 Post by dw »

Tex,

Again, no offense but it raises the question...if you don't think you should have to explain, or, more importantly, if you don't feel a *desire* to explain,why do you post on the CC? Personally, I think that if a person thinks that they can stand on reputation alone, it is a slap in the face to all other bootmakers. It is disrespectful.

Do you post here only for the exposure? Do you post here just to remind folks that you've got seniority. Do you post here just for the occasional argument or the opportunity to put someone down...from your vantage point of so much more experience? Not good nor helpful reasons, any of them.

Given that you feel compelled to jump in with criticism but feel no impulse to explain your dismissals, may I ask a question? Which do you think is more arrogant? The individual who stands on his reputation as an answer for any and all questions and peremptorily shuts down any conversation he doesn't like, or the individual who will take the time and expend the energy to reach out to other people?

I have a reputation, too...no, I'm not comparing it to yours...but I do have one, for better or worse. Maybe my only lasting legacy will be my willingness to discuss, explore ideas, and offer my opinion about a subject that I live, breath, and dream. Regardless, I take it upon myself to explain to people my thinking, my reasons, and my procedures as patiently and as respectfully as I possibly can. Is that arrogant.? Is that being a know it all? I don't type any better with two hands than Gary with one finger. So it takes a certain amount of effort to talk to people and not just say "I'm right...'says so in the Scriptures' " I have never done that. So am I a "know it all" because I take the time? So be it. Better to be a know it all and help one person than to be a crank and offend everybody. I reach out when I can. I don't expect people to bow down to me and accept what I say as gospel because I've been making boots longer than they have. All I ask is that if they ask me a question or if they are involved in a conversation that I am involved in, that they do me the honour of listening with an open mind. That's real respect my friend and it's always *earned*, it can't be given or accrued by time in the harness.

Frankly, I think the only thing that seniority confers upon you automatically is an AARP card. And I'm close to getting mine. Image

As for having the last word, I don't count them. I am open to discussion as far as anyone wants to take it. I'm not looking to shut conversation down. If I was, I'd start by shutting down the forum...or maybe just banning everyone who disagreed with me. But one way to get the last word with me is to refrain from taking the cheap shot. It's never as cheap as it seems. Ever.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#429 Post by dw »

Jake,

Just for comparison...here's a photo of a finished inseam using a shallow groove as an inside channel. Despite the groove being barely deeper than the thickness of the inseaming thread, the stitches are well buried in the insole and reasonably well protected. AND! the treads are nearly a quarter of an inch away from the grain surface of the insole. You tell me, is that good, bad, or indifferent?
2585.jpg


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Re: Tools of the Trade

#430 Post by texrobinboots »

DW,

I have explained myself blue in the face to you many times on the CC but I always seem to get looked down upon as the underdog and your word is the last and best. I have not implied or claimed that yrs alone in anything is proof of anything but I am the one that is getting the disrespect. I have tried for several years now to make friends with you but every time I am insulted when it comes to yours or my opposing opinions.
I am not your whipping boy and I have never taken any cheap shots at you and it now appears that we are right back where we were several years ago when all I asked you was a question about why you had not tried some different methods. My credentials are already established in this business and I am finished with your insults. And don't bother writing another long essay filled with your big English words because I won't be reading it.......TR
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#431 Post by jake »

Janne,

Thanks for the offer, but I guess I'll stick to my old ways. But like I said, I sure do appreciate the offer.

Take care!
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#432 Post by gcunning »

Need some feedback.
Around the toe - Inseaming - I double cord -lay in channel and sew it in. -So not to pull out.
Standard?
Faults?
Of no consequence?
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#433 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

That is GOOD Ol'Buddy! I like it! And that's a fine looking photo too! Looks like you're getting her figured out.

By the way, Where's the beef?...er, I mean the wax? Looks like that thread is a little clean! I shouldn't bee too hard on ya. I baby-sit this afternoon, so I spent most of the evening inseaming some boots. Followed Tex's inseaming instructions on using no wax on the Dacron Polys. Worked like a charm! I was a little skeptical about losing a bristle, but it happened only once, and it was really my fault. I pulled too hard on a bristle. Wasn't a bit of trouble to put back on either.

But now I want you to read back a few days. I never said I was going to change to the diagonal cut for good. Just wanted to try out my new knife! (big grin)

Honestly though, I've learned something here lately. As I've said, I was really disappointed in the results by using a french edger to create a ditch for the inseaming threads. Never occurred to me just to groove it! Duhhh! I really like the results you're getting with just grooving the insole. I'm a believer!

Oh....and get some wax on those threads! You've got a reputation to uphold! (GREAT BIG GRIN)

See ya "Thin & Easy"!
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#434 Post by cmw »

Janne and all

I haven't read all the post yet so sorry if I'm off base.

I've had the chance to try both insole methods and had the chance to repair many in the last few yrs. The gemming(geman was in danish) does not hold that long. We glue them on again when we resole.

I know from the repairs that we do that all the insoles that I make in the future(when I have a choice)are going to grooved. By the way most makers here in DK use the gemming like you are talking about.

Work calls, there is a big stack of shoes out there.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#435 Post by cmw »

Jake

My old justins are made with gemming and I have seen some other american shoes with it to.

Just a little note. Once the welt is sewn on, you cut the gemming down close to the stitches to avoid too much cork filler.

This brings me to the reason we are here in this section: tools. I'll try to post a picture tonight of the tool I've used to make the gemming more even before the filling is put in. I made mine. it took the whole of 3 min.

That was my lunch time

Ya'll take care
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#436 Post by jake »

Chris,

Thanks for the additional information. We look forward to seeing "your" tool. I know it's gratifying when a person can come up with something to satisfy a particular task. Good for You!
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#437 Post by jake »

Gary,

You're talking about "gemming" now, aren't ya? since I've never done it, I ain't got a clue!
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#438 Post by dw »

Janne,

I don't believe I've ever seen gemming that stout here in the States. I really have no idea how you, personally, use or apply the gemming. It may end up being more sound than I visualize. And I know you like to have a number of options to offer the customer and that, in itself, is probably sound business thinking. But I do know that here in the States only the cheapest boots and shoes use gemming, as far as I have ever seen. I've never taken apart or run across a boot that cost less than $150.00 that *didn't* use it and never seen a boot or shoe that cost more than $300.00 that did. I suppose that accounts for my own bias against it.

I've never tried gemming...not for a whole boot at any rate...guess I'd rather not, if truth be told. Seems an additional expense, if nothing else. But I've tried just about every other technique for inseaming. As I told Jake, in my books I include instructions for applying the free knife channeling method. And, of course, used it myself for over two decades.

Whatever technique anyone uses is up to them. I'm not going to judge that person's character one way or the other. But it's interesting to me...and apparently a few others...to explore the strengths and weaknesses of every technique. *Every* technique! A person has to be at least *somewhat* objective to do that, in my opinion, and not take offence because another person doesn't see it your way. I hope I didn't offend you, too, when I spoke about the gemming.

As someone recently said I'm not a boot god (a sentiment I have repeatedly asserted my own self for the last 25 years in all my writing). I am just expressing one man's opinion (maybe flawed, at that) and have no power to command either change or agreement.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#439 Post by dw »

Jake,

Thanks for the compliment on the photo. Yeah, I'm getting it (knock on wood).

Wax? You mean we're supposed to have wax?...heck, we don't need no stinkin' wax!. Actually, I'm waxed up good there...just using a "summer" wax. No, I take that back, it not technically really a summer wax, it's just a blond wax that I've been playing with made according to a formula I got off the forum here--thanks to...can't think of his name off hand (sorry). But it's comprised of Atom Wax, cod oil and a bit of pine rosin. No pitch. My Teklon is ivory coloured and the wax is ivory coloured and my bristles are dark, dark, brown. I was kind of frustrated with the black wax rubbing (or flaking) off on light coloured leathers, so I thought I'd try something different.

Jake, I never thought you would stick with the slit channel method (you said you were just trying it out)...and even if you did...so what? I have no desire, or power, to decide the paths that you take or the techniques you use, with your bootmaking. I wouldn't want to. Sure, I can influence you...but if I'm going to influence anyone I want to do so based on logic and reason and not on the fact that I gave you a lesson or that I have been making boots for a pretty good spell.

Thing is, I learn from folks who do things different than I do...and *if* they can tell me why, I might even try it myself. In fact, you might be the best source of learning for me that has come down the pike in quite a while. Because you took one of my seminars, I know we are on the same page. I know that we understand some things in just about the same way. So if you decide to do things different than I do, I know you might not only have a good reason but you will probably be able to explain it to me in such a way that I will understand why.

And like I said, your knife was beautiful! Made me almost wish I still used the slit channel.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#440 Post by dw »

Gary,

If you mean that you cut an inside channel, and then lay an extra piece of cord...maybe inseaming thread...into the channel to reinforce the toe area...well, Al Saguto detailed that procedure here on the Forum some time ago. I had never seen nor heard of it until he did. I tried it right after his post however, with mostly good results. I don't rely entirely on it...it seems to me that if the holdfast is so weak you are gonna immediately break through, the extra cord doesn't really help all that muchl. But if the holdfast is just weak ...or the holes just a tidge too close together, it really works. Just another tool for the old kit.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#441 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,
I was kind of frustrated with the black wax rubbing (or flaking) off on light coloured leathers


Boy, me too! I like my threads messy black with the wax. A couple of months ago, I had tops made with bone kidskin. I made a terrible mess with the strings rubbing up against the tops while inseaming. I remember it was a hot day too. That's one of the reasons I wanted to try Tex's "no-wax" technique. Like I've mentioned, I was skeptical, but pleasantly surprised. Keep us informed on the final outcome with your "blond" wax. If you like it, I would probably coat my strings with it just to help fill in awl holes.

One final comment, our friendship is much stronger than any bootmaking technique.

Hub
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#442 Post by dw »

Jake,

I've been using the blond wax for most of the year. I like it. My current formula is a little brittle though. To counter that, I've been rubbing a little cod oil into the surface of an already waxed thread...just a little. It softens up the wax just enough that it doesn't flake off. I'm about out of Teklon and seriously thinking about buying another spool in a raspberry colour. The blond wax will let the raspberry show through. Well, I guess "seriously" is the wrong word because it would be a funny joke (on me) hidden in the "guts" of the boot. What would you think if you went to repair a pair of boots and they were inseam with red thread? Or blue thread? [chuckle]

Jake, thanks for the reassurance. I know that...I believe that. Maybe I even count on it. I pray I never take it for granted. That's what friendship is truly about.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#443 Post by sorrell »

Hey, wait a minute, I think I missed something here. Jake, are you saying that Tex uses the dacron tapers and doesn't put any hand wax on them at all? Not even to attach the bristles? I'm a big chicken--I don't usually like to try something new unless someone's done it and achieved results that I like. Can one of you tell me more?

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#444 Post by cmw »

2586.jpg
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#445 Post by cmw »

Here's the tool for smoothing the gemming top edge. It also has a flat side that one can use to run back and forth the finished sole to make it flat. The "hand shoe makers" here beat the sole on and don't use a few tons and 5 sec. like I do at work. There is also an end to open the lip on the sole before sewing it on. I must admit that the use of the curved parts close to the ends are still a mystery for me. This brings me to the sad truth. it's not my invention, it is a copy of one I saw in school.

I have to go now, my boy will not give me any more peace and quite.
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#446 Post by jake »

D.W.,

Yeah! That sure would tickle me, or make me scratch my head wondering what the bootmaker used. I think you should use pink! Pink is kinda your colour anyway (big grin). At least that's what those old-timers told me at the Waffle House.

Let me tell ya Partner, YOU CAN COUNT ON IT!

Lisa,

Good to hear from you! Don't be such a stranger!

You heard right. Last night I inseamed a pair of boots with Ludlow's Dacron Polys using only the wax that came with the tapers! I had serious reservations about it myself, but Tex said he's done it, and it's the norm instead of the exception while inseaming. I have to tell ya, it worked like a charm and really decreased my time inseaming. It's a very clean way to inseam too. I used the old "wrap" technique, not plaiting the bristle, and didn't loose but one bristle. It was very easy to put back on the taper too. I have to tell ya, I was very impressed.

Take care!
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Re: Tools of the Trade

#447 Post by dw »

Jake,

Giving credit where it is due...Jim Bultsma was the one who first posted the blond wax recipe on the forum. January 18 2003 under Hand Wax/Coad


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Re: Tools of the Trade

#448 Post by sorrell »

Jake,
Cool! I'm going to try that. Saving time and achieving the same results is always a good thing, but I'm REALLY interested in the "neat" part of it. I can try my hardest to be neat and clean and I'm still the messiest bootmaker I know.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#449 Post by gaid »

D.W, all

Well, I only have two options to offer my clients regarding the bottoming technique.

-------
Seems an additional expense, if nothing else
-------
The whole point by using gemming is that it is as good as the trad. method (in my opinion) and less expensive. It just take about 10 minutes to mount the gemming and then of you go. It needs no pre-punching and it will always be of the same quallity. No risk for a channel break or a to deep cut with the knife. Also, a cheaper insole leather, like Baker's 6 iron belly will do fine. Shortly, it is a good option for a semi-handmade shoe/boot. The lasting and inseaming technique will be the same as with the trad. version. The extra cost is less then a dollar/pair. End of the gemming song of praise!

No offence taken. If you don't agree with the way I make shoes is up to you. But I did find your posting unneeded provocative. And I'm not sure a tone like that leads towards trust, sharing and learning.

Chris
The tool you have made is nothing I use for smoothing the gemming top edge. I take away the surplus with the sander and are not smoothing it at all. I think the main purpose with your tool is for smoothing the outsole and the curved parts close to the ends is for smoothing the waist area on bevel-edged shoes. I have one and that is the way I use it.

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Re: Tools of the Trade

#450 Post by gcunning »

Jake
DW Was right I lay just a piece for the toe as support, I have gotten the holes to close before.
It seemed to work well. A person would have to really pull to pull through the hold fast with that thread in there.
I'm sure I read AL's summation but Carl taught me this.
I use the wrap method as well. Took me foooooor ever to get it. Yes I know its simple but by the time I would get back around to inseaming another pair I would forget. Finally I went to Carls and did several in a row and got it down.
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