vamping

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dw
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Re: vamping

#51 Post by dw »

Joel,

Sometimes...not always. I use a midliner when I think the leather is too fragile or too thin. I use it primarily to reinforce the welt line.

There is some suggestion in the literature that midliners should be used...always...to extend the stiffness of the counter/heel stiffener forward along the side of the shoe. Midliners are not part of the tradition of bootmaking as I learned it, however.

I will back a piece of lizard or snake...depending on the thickness and tannage...and I will sometimes midline a piece of alligator or ostrich. In no instance am I doing this to increase stiffness or even to increase substance.

Hope this helps...

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Re: vamping

#52 Post by sorrell »

I was taught to use a midliner in the vamp at the sideseam. The reason I was given was that it helps to ease in the difference in thickness between the lined vamp and the counter and counter cover. I usually always put that in, but just this week I made a full wellington and didn't include it.

The only time I've ever NOT added the midliner at the sideseam and regretted it was once when I made a very light weight pair of kangaroo boots. They had quite a bit of inlay on the tops, adding weight. I felt that if I'd put the midliner in it would have supported the sideseam a little better on the vamp side.

Lisa
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Re: vamping

#53 Post by j1a2g3 »

Lisa or Dw

When do you add the mid liner? Before or after you last the boot? Thanks Joel
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Re: vamping

#54 Post by dw »

Lisa,

That's the way I was taught and I do that always. But we call that a "fender" in the tradition I came up in, if only because it is only about an inch or so wide. Midliners generally run all the way to just shy of the toe box.

Joel,

Most shoemakers probably add the midliner during lasting I add either a fender or a midliner on boots during assembly and before closing the sideseam...so that the sideseam edge is incorporated in the sideseam itself.

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Re: vamping

#55 Post by chuck_deats »

Lisa,

Is there any chance we could see a picture your full Wellingtons?

Thanks, Chuck
j1a2g3

Re: vamping

#56 Post by j1a2g3 »

Dw,

I'm going to cut the vamps form the blockers I crimped yesterday. I just want to know if my template is in the right position before I start cutting. Picture below. Thanks in advance, Joel
4977.jpg
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Re: vamping

#57 Post by dw »

Joel,

Yep, looks about right. Might ease it up just a little higher, I'll cut as high as I can get it as long as I don't encroach into the relief hole.

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Re: vamping

#58 Post by j1a2g3 »

DW,

I have a question. On the picture above, do I extend the top line of the quarter on the template, to the side of the blocker, when I'm cutting the vamp out or do I make the 90 degree turn and cut down to the bottom of it? Thanks in advance, Joel
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Re: vamping

#59 Post by dw »

Joel,

No, cut all the way to the side of the blocker. Actually, it seems funny, now that I look at it. Seems like my cutting template runs all the way off.

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Re: vamping

#60 Post by j1a2g3 »

DW

Thanks, that was my thought. I just wanted to make sure. Joel
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Re: vamping

#61 Post by romango »

I'm trying to design crimping boards for a zipper boot I am making (no tongue). I've been reading whatever I can find and studying pictures, including Joel's in the post above.

This is what I have come up with. Can anyone comment if this looks correct?
7377.jpg


The red outline would be the leather.
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Re: vamping

#62 Post by dw »

Rick,

I would think that if the vamp pattern you have is taken off a mean form from the last (and it looks, instead, as if it's taken off a geometric pattern) then I don't see how you can go wrong with what you have there.

If it is indeed taken off a geometric pattern then I wonder...

Make the board out of cheap lumber and then do a prototype shoe...lace it instead of zippering. I think you have to proof these kinds of things when you don't have any previous experience withthe style or the design.

I just finished a proof of a shoe I am making for a customer...worked out good but I made several corrections and learned some critical things in the process.

The proof is tan, just because that's what I had handy by way of scrap--the final shoe will be black.
7379.jpg


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(Message edited by dw on April 09, 2008)

(Message edited by dw on April 09, 2008)
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Re: vamping

#63 Post by romango »

DW,

That's a very cute shoe!

You are correct, it is from a geometric design. Already made a test boot too. But I sidestepped the crimping by seaming it down the middle.
7381.jpg
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Re: vamping

#64 Post by dw »

Rick,

Well, heck pilgrim...there ain't nuthin' wrong with that!!

Seems like there ought to be a way to cut that vamp so you wouldn't have to crimp it...I'm almost certain there is...but I would probably crimp it anyway, even if you could cut it to spring open. I just like working with already sprung vamps--there's less uncertainty as to what to expect.

I think your crimp board ought to work fine.

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relferink

Re: vamping

#65 Post by relferink »

Rick,

There is indeed a way to do this without crimping. You have to turn your vamp pattern before cutting it and sew it under stress (not sure how it's called properly but the idea is to sew some spring in the upper) I haven't done it much and wouldn't know where to begin in trying to explain it in words.
If no one else is able to help you with that I'll take a look at some of my pattern books this weekend and maybe I can come up with something that makes sense, no promises on that.

Not knowing much about crimping I wonder if the sharp corner at the center of the vamp on your proposed crimping board may cause a mark that's hard to get rid off. I would try to make the curve more gradual but that's just my Image

Rob
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Re: vamping

#66 Post by jesselee »

To All,

Appologies for speaking out loud here, but... In crimping, not any crimping board will do. The board, whether for vamp, or full Wellington, must/should, match the last contours from the top of the cone on down to the toe. Using this method, one can have a variety of crimping boards to match a low or high heel. A board used for a low 1" heel can not be used for a 3" heel without much pattern adjustment. Quite simply, it make it easier and more exact for the pattern.

Hope my 2 cent piece helped.
Cheers,
JesseLee
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Re: vamping

#67 Post by headelf »

There's more to the story of Rick's boot. He developed the made-to-measure pattern using the geometric method pattern drawing system on his website: romangoshoes.com It's under the "about" button. Nifty. You add the heel height plus measurements and the program draws the pattern.

Georgene
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Re: vamping

#68 Post by relferink »

Jesse Lee,

Please do not apologize for speaking out. What good would a forum be without just that.
You bring up an interesting point that I've been wondering about. Should a crimping board follow the contour of the last or should the board follow the contour of the pattern?
I realize the last and pattern are closely related but when making a crimping board do you lay the last on it's side and trace it or follow your pattern? Or is there yet another, even better way to arrive at a crimping board? For those that use them regularly, do you use different boards for different last shapes?
Does it matter if the pattern is based on a last copy vs a geometric pattern?

Just wondering.
Rob
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Re: vamping

#69 Post by dw »

If I can stick my nose in here...

I have seen (I even own) antique crimping boards--long boards--that attempt to replicate the contour of the last especially over the instep. My own teacher used boards that were shaped that way. I have also seen boards that were not shaped.

That said, in my quest for the full wellington, I looked at many different styles of board and the metal patterns that were used to cut the blockers once they came off the boards. I cannot remember any of the metal patterns that had any shaping over the instep. Of course, by the time I really started to look at them I had already abandoned the notion that such shaping was necessary (or even desirable) so I may not have made too much note of any shaping that was present on the metal patterns.

Studying the metal patterns in combination with the diagrams in Golding and Swaysland and others, I came to the conclusion that heel height could be addressed in the manner in which the sideseam was flared and cut and that a board for each heel height was not necessary.

I think it would have been...and certainly would be for me...almost cost prohibitive to have boards and metal blocker patterns set for every heel height and shaped for every cone shape.

I abandoned the shaped board of my teacher for my dress wellingtons very early on and the long boards I use are derivative on my short boards.

I can see the theory behind shaping the long board to resemble the shape of the last but it makes getting a really smooth and clean "break" much more difficult esp. when crimping full wellingtons. This is particularly true with more modern, chrome tanned leathers. I also think that whatever "bunching" or compression of surplus leather that occurs over a shaped "instep" on a board ultimately leaves that much more surplus over the foot when the boot is worn. Of course, a certain amount of that is inevitable no matter how the boards are shaped but, in my experience, a board with an instep has a natural barrier to movement of the surplus pipes and wrinkles.

My theories (and that's all they are) are based on the notion that leather is a stretchy, resilient material and not hard or inflexible. We can make it take a shape that it doesn't naturally have...we rely on that characteristic, in fact. But although I prefer to work with a crimped vamp or blocker, I think we should not loose sight of the fact that much of shoe and bootmaking depends on the idea that most of what we do, or can do--most of our designs--can be achieved through proper cutting alone.

In practice, I have made dress wellingtons, for 35 years plus or minus, at heel heights from seven-eighths to two and a quarter inches, that look pretty good to my eye. And I have through most of that time done it with unshaped boards and a "one-size-fits-all" board. I have for about 15 to 20 years been making full wellingtons at these same heel heights with unshaped boards and with no fixed heel height indexed to the board. In other words, when I take a blocker off the board, I can successfully cut it for any heel height I desire.

This all brings us back around to the delightful and endlessly intriguing realization that there probably is no "right" way to do any of this. Only the results count.

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Re: vamping

#70 Post by romango »

My vamp pattern comes from a geometric design but it is pretty close to the same result one would get from a meane form. I know because I did that too, to compare.

If I take this pattern and create the vamp with a seam down the middle (as shown above), the upper pulls down on the last almost without effort. So, to my mind, I want a crimped vamp that closely resembles the vamp with a seam down the middle. Then I know it will behave well in lasting.

If my angle is correct, I can cut the bottom exactly to the pattern and it will last just as if there were a seam down the middle.

This tells me that the angle of the board should reflect the pattern break. Once I get this crimped angle set in the leather, the rest of the task is taken care of by how I cut out the bottom of the vamp. Seems this cutting will allow for variations in heel height.

However, In my case, the 3 1/2 inch heel does have a big impact on the angle of the break. For now, I am most comfortable making a specific crimp board for that angle. That's not to say a lesser or greater angle would not pull down. But this seems the safest place to start.
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Re: vamping

#71 Post by dw »

Rick,

I have boards for my pull-on boots and a board (only one for the moment) for several styles of shoe that I think benefit from crimping. But obviously I don't think I could substitute one for the other.

I think you are on the right track with making a board from the pattern or mean forme, esp. for these "one-offs" or prototypes. Whether you would be able to successfully cut the resulting blocker for all heel heights is an open question, however. If the blocker were well sprung--"overcrimped" as Al Saguto once advised me--chances are good you can.

But drawing from my FW experience, I would say...paraphrasing Jesse Lee...that while you may be able to cut a blocker crimped for a 7/8" heel to fit a last with a 3" heel, the reverse would, in all likelihood, simply not be possible.

I have changed the angle of my shoe board several times already (that's why there is only one). The reason? To increase the angle so that the blocker is overcrimped.

You can always adjust an overcrimped blocker for a higher heel...although, as indicated above you can't make a undercrimped blocker fit a higher heel...but more than that, when a blocker comes off the board a certain amount of spring is lost just to released tension. So what looks to be too severe an angle on the board ends up being insufficient or perhaps "just right" when you get down to cutting the actual pattern.

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Re: vamping

#72 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Hi to all
Just my two cents. If you think about the vamp on a boot you are trying to define three angles of shape. The toe, the instep and the start of the shaft. That is a busy intersection in a small area.
I have used crimping boards cut for one offs and I have used the tension method. Each has it's place depending on the leather and style. Just for comparison sake make a form from tape then cut out the vamp as it would be when done, then try to lay it to a flat area and see what parts can't flatten that is where you can see the shaping take place on the crimping board or you can see how to alter your pattern so when sewen and lasted everything is were it should be. This can take some tinkering to get it right.
DW those strap shoes look like they will turn out just fine.
Joel one thing I noticed is how you swung the zipper towards the instep IMO thats the way they should be made make getting into the boot a lot easier and less stress on the zipper. I hate putting in zippers but double hate replacing them!

One last thought the sharp angle on the crimping board may make the smoothing harder. a slight curve will let the leather move easier and not make a nice home for pipes and wrinkles to hide
Regards
Brendan
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Re: vamping

#73 Post by relferink »

All,

Thanks for the insight. DW, you mention that you can adjust for the lack of a specific heel height in your board by adjusting the way the sideseam is flared. I'm not sure I'm understanding that correctly, could you elaborate?
When not working on a western style boot (something without a side seam) does the same theory hold up that overcrimping (compared to following the shape of the last) is not a problem and can easily be absorbed by the pattern?
Considering that the crimping boards are flat and the last has width to it one could expect to loose some of the shape once the leather is pulled around the width.

Crimping was never addressed in school, don't know the reason but sure is a shame.
Thank you all for getting me up to speed.

Rob
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Re: vamping

#74 Post by dw »

Rob,

OK...but I warn you that after all is said and done you may still be a little doubtful. In all likelihood, only actual experience will convince.

Let's start by stipulating that the purpose of crimping is not to stretch the vamp but to shape it. Some stretching necessarily takes place but to the extent that we can shape a vamp as we like without robbing it of its natural ability to stretch and conform to other shapes the better off we well be. This is pertinent because the crimping board is not the final destination of the vamp...the last and its infinitely more complex shape is.

If we start out assuming that having different crimping boards for different heel heights is, at least, a working solution, the next step is to analyze how those boards differ from one another. This, in turn, will lead us to a better understanding of the differences between vamps or blockers coming off different boards.

I mention this because that's the thought process I went through to arrive at the conclusions I came to.

Let's look at boards made for full wellingtons...this is an extreme example of crimped work and as such can tell us a lot about principles--not only in extremis but in more mundane applications of crimping techniques, as well. The difference between a board set for a higher heel and a board set for a lower heel is, at first glance, the angle of the "vamp" relative to the centerline/crease up the center of the top.

For a higher heel the "toe" of the board will be lower relative to the blade of the board on the "top" than with a board set for a lower heel. Form follows function in this case. Look at a pair of low heeled boots from the side. Or look at the foot when it is "grounded." The position of the instep relative to the shin...the position of the top of the vamp relative to the tops...will be more at a ninety degree angle than a foot/boot set for a higher heel.

All pretty straight-forward to this point. But is it really? When the boot is worn doesn't the angle of the tops change as the foot moves through the gait sequence? Shouldn't a boot to be able to bend forward or back? Even before cutting the blocker to shape...shouldn't we be able to pivot the top forward or back without changing the suitability for whatever heel we have cut it for?

So what's really going on? What does crimping on heel height indexed boards really do?

I submit that it changes the amount of leather...the dimension...at a downward angle from the instep point to the sideseam edge of the boot. Raise the toe of the vamp relative to the top and more leather is available along this line. Lower the toe and there is less. And it is this dimension that is critical.

Suppose you purposefully overcrimp and start out with a vamp that is very high relative to the top...ostensibly set for a seven-eighths inch heel, for instance. Now suppose that you trim away a substantial amount of leather at the sideseam...between the "throat" and the insole line. When you then assemble the boot...closing up the side seam...you will, in effect be pulling the sideseam edge over to meet its counterpart on the back or counter. What this does, if there is not enough substance along the line I mentioned above, is draw the toe downward--thus negating the overcrimping or the low heel set of the board. It is, in effect reducing the angle of the crimp.

And the reverse effect can be seen if you allow too much along that imaginary instep to sideseam line. When you go to last the boot, there will be excess over the instep because you built it in...not with ovecrimping, or the angle of your boards, but with the manner in which you trimmed the sideseam edge.

If you can see the crimped blocker in profile in your mind's eye and can pivot the "vamp" relative to the top...pivot it right there at the break...up down, for high heels and low heels, you can see the shortening and lengthening of the instep to sideseam line. Of course that assumes that we have yet to trim the sideseam edge and have surplus to adjust the critical dimension. Once that edge is trimmed, there is no further adjustment possible--the blocker will be set for a specific heel height for good or for bad--simply because, in trimming we will either leave enough leather to last the boot over a low heeled last or we will not.

It is there, at the sideseam edge, that we can adjust for heel height by the way we trim the sideseam.

And if I have correctly interpreted the old steel patterns that I have seen, that was the way it was done historically, as well. Sometimes, by some makers.

Bottom line...it works for me.

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(Message edited by dw on April 14, 2008)
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Re: vamping

#75 Post by big_larry »

D.W.,

Excellent point! If an apprentice level maker were to end up with a bit of excess between the throat and the sideseam after sewing the side seam and toward the end of the lasting process, can super pulling effort on the excess over the feather line take out some of the excess and thus tighten the rippled area at the side seam? I know you would never make an error like this but I have. After having thought this process over several times with the way you explained it, I do not think this will ever happen again.

Valuable information! Thank you for taking the time to explain this for us folks who are a bit slow.

Gratitude, Larry Peterson
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