vamping

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vamping

#1 Post by admin »

All messages posted prior to 25 February 2002 have been moved to the first Crispin Colloquy CD Archive. Those interested in obtaining a copy of this searchable CD need to contact admin@thehcc.org

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Re: vamping

#2 Post by dw »

Chris,

Crimping boards have been made both wider and narrower. I've seen them two inches wide. At bottom, I doubt very much that the shape or the width of the board all by itself has very much importance...as long as the rest of your "system" slash technique is set up to use that particular width or shape. My system uses a one inch board. The fact that most people use, and most hardware is set up around, a one inch board is almost incidental.

Beyond that, however...getting into the theory behind it all...a wider board actually springs the vamp *less*. Try this out: make and crimp a vamp on a one inch board, then make and crimp the mate on a two inch board. When the vamps are crimped and taken off the board, flatten them...folded along the crease of the blade of the board.... In my experience the spring of the wider board will flatten out as the vamp blocker itself is flattened. This all became critically apparent when I started making full wellington. One of my inspirations was a fellow by the name of Dave Viers. He crimped all his front blockers on a machine that had a quarter inch wide, chrome steel "board." When his blockers were flattened on their sides they retained a really high proportion of the tight angle that had been imparted to the leather. Fundamentally, the narrower board crimped the leather better than the wider boards did.

So why don't we all use narrow boards, you ask? Well, clearing all the wrinkles is much, much harder on a narrow board. That's really significant on a full wellington. Then too, the narrow board tends to leave a crease in the leather that never really goes away completely. A hundred years later, you can still see these creases on old boots that were crimped on machines.

As for wood versus synthetics...I use plastic boards almost exclusively, now. But wood is easier to work, easier to control, easier to polish and cheaper and easier to replace. Except for that, wood can't hold a candle to the plastic boards. But my thought when writing the book was that a novice doesn't really want to invest, nor does he necessarily have access to the resources to get into the plastic boards right away. Boards have been made of wood for centuries. It's still a good medium. That said, I believe I did reference Dick Anderson as a source for good plastic boards...already made up and outfitted with irons and bushing for irons in the notches. As for wood drying faster...yada, yada yada...well, that's true only if you don't varnish your wood and the moisture from the leather is allowed to penetrate the wood. Is, in fact absorbed by the wood...which in turn, causes the wood to swell up, and particularly on lasts, distorts the fit. But more importantly, ultimately contributes to the deterioration of the wood itself. I've got this hard-to-shake reputation as a "traditionalist" but I'm really a pragmatist. I'll when it comes to lasts and crimping boards, I prefer the plastic.

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Tex Robin

Re: vamping

#3 Post by Tex Robin »

DW, et All,

I will now try to explain why most bootmakers add the extra row of stitching to the inside of inlays. I wanted show Jake Dobbins my method at the Roundup so if someone doesn't understand it maybe he can help me out.

First I cut my inlay, initals out with my chiseling machine. I then save the cutout-plugs for later. Then I place my skived inlay material under the initial or inlay design. I sew one row around the cutout before I add anything to the outside layer of the top panel. After that I stick the plug to the back of the inlay that has the one row already stitched. Then I completely assemble the top panels. And here is where the inside row is explained. I do not skive any of my inlays (especially when using roo or thin kid) and here is the reason it is neither necessary or practical. After the tops have been assembled I then place the top panel under the machine with my roller-presserfoot on top of the first row with the inlay directly to the right of the roller-presserfoot. I sew a row just inside the inlay as close to the outside of the inlay as possible. This raises the unskived plug up level or above the outside of the cutout and this method doesn't work if the inlays are skived. skiving defeats the process. This method has been handed down for years and was used by Charlie Dunn and Lee Miller and myself. It is a very unique method and works very well on initials......TR
Tex Robin

Re: vamping

#4 Post by Tex Robin »

All,
Here is an example of the raised inlayed initials
2562.jpg
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Re: vamping

#5 Post by dw »

Tex,

I have to say that's the first example of inlay work done that way I've seen that I thought was comparable to the way I do it.

That's clean work, Tex.


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Re: vamping

#6 Post by jake »

Tex,

Now add a "D" to the end of that rascal. Then that would make a good set of initials for me! I bet you was thinking of that all along (big grin).
Tex Robin

Re: vamping

#7 Post by Tex Robin »

DW,

Thanks. With thicker materials I am forced to skive but with Roo or kid that I use 98% of the time it is unnecessary. The raising of the plug takes care of the edge.

Jake,

I am about to get back to normal now. I cut a pair of tops today and started a pair of 1/2 soles. Hey, since we both have some Cherokee blood we could be cousins! Hey haw alena, Ho ho nowitchi Naia.......TR
christopher williamson

Re: vamping

#8 Post by christopher williamson »

DW


Thank for the quick reply. Sorry for not doing the same. In the last wk. after the test I've had a lot to catch up on, a sick little boy and
a new job and/or apprenticeship to find.

You answered a lot of the questions that I had but did not asked yet. Thanks. What is your experience with a hard wood that is coated with something to stop the wood from expanding? As you said it could be a costly hobby if I have to order a lot of things instead of making them.

I have this idea. Let me know if it has been used or tried. Why not take a pipe(ca. 1 inch) and bend it to the needed shape. It would be easy to attach a tension devise and the vamp would dry faster because of the air on both sides.

gotta go
CW
Tex Robin

Re: vamping

#9 Post by Tex Robin »

CW,

You might have something with the pipe. Have you seen something like that?

But for now I like the wood crimping boards and I prefer the rock hard Maple. I have them sawn out
to my shape and then I grind the taper myself. I make them from 1 to 1/14 in thick. And unlike DW I don't see where a finish does anything. The wood is so hard that a little moisture doesn't swell them and it make the vamps dry sooner. I have some plastic boards that were made for me by Randy Ludwig at Vulcan in the 70s but they are not my favorites because of the drying factor. Crimping boards can be made from almost any kind
of wood but the harder woods work better.

Good luck with the new job, but why don't you just come back to Texas?.......TR
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Re: vamping

#10 Post by dw »

Chris,

When I use wood...and I have several prize long boards made of the 20 ply birch plywood...I usually varnish them with Varithane--a polyurethane varnish. That will seal it up pretty good. I have to agreed with Tex...at least in the context of crimping boards...a hard rock maple board can probably take the gaff unvarnished and if it expands, who cares? It's a crimping board, not a last--fit isn't a factor.

As for the pipe idea...well first you need some way to stretch and secure the leather along the margins of the vamp, ie. the bottom of the "board. Since it's not a board but rather a pipe, there will be no "bottom" and hence no way to secure the vamp edges. Secondly, my boards are a good compromise between the quarter inch blade/boards of the old crimping machines and the wider crimping boards you were asking about. My board is one inch wide but it is beveled to a blade edge that is a well rounded 3/16th of an inch (plus or minus). So we get all the benefits of the tight crimp at the fold but few of the drawbacks.

And if you're that worried about the drying time--overnight will generally do it on a plastic board if the room is warm and dry--then you're in too much of a hurry. Take off early and go play with your kids. Image

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Tex Robin

Re: vamping

#11 Post by Tex Robin »

DW, Chris,

Yeah, I could see adding a finish to laminated board or plywood. That makes sense, but I'll admit that I never thought of using it for crimping boards. My shop must have more humidity than yours because my vamps won't dry overnight on my plastic ones. I use one of mine to weight down my vamps in my bucket, and sometimes I crimp my linings on them. Maple is getting hard to find so I might look at the plywood next time. And next year I am switching to refrig air conditioning.......TR
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Re: vamping

#12 Post by cmw »

Tex and DW

I’ll start with the hard one first. I would love to move home, but I can’t move away from my daughter. She is 14 so I’m stuck here for the time being.

Thanks for the info on the different types of boards. If the man next door can’t find some Hard! wood (he’s a carpenter) I’ll most likely go with a thick plywood and a plastic varnish to protect the wood. I have some 7/8 inch cabinet plywood. I’ll try that and see how it turns out.

About the pipe. I was thinking it would be shaped like a crimping board, maybe a bit larger on the back side. I’ll have to see how big the tension devices are going to be first. In any case, that will be the next one made. One of the people I traine with will be making it.

It seems that I am not that far off base. I was thinking about crimping the vamp and the liner at once.

Ya’ll take care
Thanks CW
Erick Wilcox

Re: vamping

#13 Post by Erick Wilcox »

Hello all,
I've been playing around with crimping vamps on and off for a while now. I'm basicaly using the method described in the Koleff book. I got some tips from DW on the phone a few days ago that seem to have helped me considerably. I finally got one to crimp satisfactorily on the blade edge of my board - but the leather teared past the rip-stop hole almost immediately - so far that I don't know that I'll be able to use it. I wonder if I'm doing something fundimentaly wrong for it to tear so early in crimping.
Still experimenting
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Re: vamping

#14 Post by jake »

Erick,

Man...there's so many variables that could be causing your problems. Some ideas that pop up immediately, are:

What size rip stop are you putting in the blocker?
Who's crimping board pattern are you using?
Did you wet your vamps?
How long did you soak them?
What type of leather were you crimping?
Did you start your drafts towards the toe end of the board?

What we are trying to do in the crimping process, is to crimp the tongue of the blocker up and equalize some of the stretch between the blockers. I've seen several makers over-stretch, or over crimp, their blockers. Literally, stretching all the life out of the leather. I would also take the crimping process slowly. Give the leather time to react to the stresses you're placing on it. Also, use some type of leather dressing and try to "chase" the wrinkles with a bone instead of trying to crimp the wrinkles off the board.

I hope this has helped. If you talked to D.W., you talked to the right feller.
tmattimore

Re: vamping

#15 Post by tmattimore »

erick
It takes a little practice to find where on the board to pull and where to push(so to speak). But if it tore that high up on thee board it may be you pulled the bottom to hard too soon. That close to the edge pushing the wrinkles with a bouncer or the heel of the hand before pulling from the bottom may help. Of course there is always the problem of a onerey piece of leather that would have torn out of spite anyway @#$&*$$!.
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Re: vamping

#16 Post by dw »

Erick,

I know we spoke on the phone--I hope my remarks actually helped--but for the record, I'll chime in here a bit.

The quality of the leather you are using is extremely important. I have ripped vamps exactly in the same place. I've never been able to successfully crimp cordovan without tearing. On the other hand I've crimped 3 ounce veg as full fronts, regularly and consistently. Check out "Open Forum" > "Crans..." > "The Art and the Mysteries: A Photo Essay" for a look at this being done.

How you cut your vamps can be important. Cut so that the vamp is tight across...and will stretch toe to heel. I prefer to place the toe of the vamp toward the backbone--that's the best leather, that's where the most wear and tear will occur on the boot...and that puts the tongue (and the rip stop) back in slightly more flexible stuff.

The shape of the board and the relationship of the iron to the "break" of the board are important. The iron should be pulling the leather back as much as down. As a mental exercise, pretend you're crimping a vamp without an iron. It can be done--what would you do differently?

The "blade" of the board must not be too "round." That will make clearing wrinkles from the edge of the board much more difficult.

If you start with a # 12 rip stop it shouldn't get any bigger than a nickel by the time you're done. Watch the rip stop like a hawk. You can see if the strains on that area are greater than they should be...you can see the leather about to rip.

Finally don't place the vamp too high on the board. The rip stop should end up the same relationship to the tongue as the quarter curve is in the finished boot..

And last but not least, maybe the following will help...
2687.gif

2688.gif


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Re: vamping

#17 Post by dw »

Erick,

I went back and looked at Koloff's book, and what I am about to say should be taken as one man's opinion, only.

It's hard to dismiss a technique, out of hand, especially when I have no experience with that technique. Maybe it works for some people with some leathers, but just looking at it scares me.

Frankly, in my opinion, your problems lie, firstly and mostly, in the pattern; with perhaps the shape of the board compounding the difficulty; and the "irons" adding their own mischief.

The pattern shape for the vamp is all wrong. The vamp seems "short"--too short from the toe to the sideseam edge. Or you might say that the sideseam edge of "quarters" are at too severe an angle relative to the centerline of the vamp. The relief cut is in the wrong place, at the wrong angle and, because the vamp is too short, the relief cut is way too short..

Harsh, condemnatory words, no doubt (although, in no way aimed at you). In the real world ideas don't always offer comfort. But if you ask me...it's a tear-out waiting to happen.

Sorry. The advice is free...take it for what it's worth. Image

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Erick Wilcox

Re: vamping

#18 Post by Erick Wilcox »

Thank you - lot's of information - I know there are a lot of variations that I WILL be trying.
I should say that I do not follow Koleff exactly, While I'm not doing a dress wellington, my vamp meets the quarter farther back than the Koleff pattern.
I soak my leather for 1 to 2 hours before I try crimping.
Right now I am simultaniously adjusting the cross section of my board, the shape of my blocker pattern and the order of tension.
DW, those pictures are great, I had already changed some of the things you mentioned about the Koleff pattern - they never looked/felt right to me. I would like to hear from someone who has tried his method.
Thank you all,
I'll put up a picture when I can.
Erick Wilcox
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Re: vamping

#19 Post by jake »

Erick and D.W.,
How you cut your vamps can be important. Cut so that the vamp is tight across...and will stretch toe to heel.


Good point D.W.! I forgot to mention that. VERY important Erick.

I also agree with D.W. about the crimping board and blocker pattern. I didn't want to comment directly about the book, but I feel like I need to support D.W.'s comments because he's not alone with his thinking. Just my 2 cents worth. Maybe it works fine for some people.

Erick, if you need boards or crimping irons, I can't think of any better than what Dick Anderson makes. Give him a hollar if you're interested.
Erick Wilcox

Re: vamping

#20 Post by Erick Wilcox »

Jake,Thank you, I've already talked to Dick Anderson last week - Hopfully I will have some plastic boards once I have success with home-made ones.
What I'm using now is some 1 1/2" thick laminated pine that I've given a knife edge (it had a round edge until I talked to DW last week). I've been tapering the board so it's not so thick. I drafted the shape of the break from Koleffs directions, but I took liberties with the Blocker
I've tried both directions of stretch and definitely got better results with the stretch front to back - the other way it just keeps stretching without touching the blade edge.
The one question that mistified me was:

"Did you start your drafts towards the toe end of the board?"

I do not know what you mean here

Thank you
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Re: vamping

#21 Post by jake »

Erick,

Did you start pulling the vamp over at the "tip" or "toe" end of the board first?

Work slowly back to the crimping iron with your drafts. This process is like pulling a bow back (bow and arrow). The shorter the limbs, the more stress and harder to pull back, if that makes any sense to ya. I wish I could draw pictures like D.W. has done for us. But basically, you want to take your time with your drafts and move in small increments toward your crimping iron.
tmattimore

Re: vamping

#22 Post by tmattimore »

I don't know if you can post it or not but can the koleff board and pattern be outlined? Since my hands have become more of an issue in my dotage I place another screw right where the last tack is on D.W.'s excellent drawings(fig 20). I go with D.W.'s advice on crimping. All I would add is go slow and don't over tighten the screws until the leather is ready. snug to the edge, no wrinkles locked in with just some bagginess to pull down flat to the board.
Tom Mattimore
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Re: vamping

#23 Post by dw »

Erick,

Well, if it will help, I was going through my archive and ran across these other two drawings. The one illustrating the beginning of crimping is, of course, a "prequel" to the first set I posted.

[The usual disclaimer--"just one way of doing it."]

And I hope this helps and add to the discussion.
2689.gif

2690.gif


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erickgeer

Re: vamping

#24 Post by erickgeer »

DW,
Are these pictures from your dress wellington tutorial?
I've cut a couple variations on my pattern to try tomorrow, when my board will be empty.
Thank you
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Re: vamping

#25 Post by dw »

Erick,

Yes.

Meant to ask...what are you using for vamp leather?

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