Pattern making

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Re: Pattern making

#1326 Post by das » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:25 am

Here's a "vet" '40s pair in pretty good detailed photos. The single row stitching that angles up the quarters towards the break-point from the counter secured the "webbing" inside, supposedly to stablize the ankle. The '60s ones had the same.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... servation/

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Re: Pattern making

#1327 Post by dw » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:05 am

das wrote:Here's a "vet" '40s pair in pretty good detailed photos. The single row stitching that angles up the quarters towards the break-point from the counter secured the "webbing" inside, supposedly to stablize the ankle. The '60s ones had the same.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... servation/
Interesting. Nice pair of jumpers.

I don't remember that, but like I said, that no sign of anything. If nothing else, I didn't know a vamp from a vampire in those days.
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Re: Pattern making

#1328 Post by homeboy » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:03 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Ok....I've got my 12 oz canvas in today. How do I get to here? Do I wet my canvas? Some pointers would nice! :uhoh:
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Re: Pattern making

#1329 Post by dw » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:14 pm

Jake,

No, I don't wet it. I just lightly sand the last all over to give it a surface that will hold the rubber cement and then I cement it. I cut a "blocker" of canvas and rubber cement it as well. Put the rubber cement on the canvas heavy. When both the last and the canvas are dry set the last down, gingerly, on the canvas so that it rests on its side sort of naturally. the last will stick to the canvas, of course, and then you just pick it up and deliberately press or chase the canvas to the centerlines on the last and the feather lines. Sometimes, esp. at the vamp point and the feather edge around the toe or heel you may need to re-cement and re-stick.

No big deal really. Glad to help, though.
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Re: Pattern making

#1330 Post by homeboy » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Ohhhhh! I see! Rubber cement it! :thinking:

I was thinking it needed lasting, like this. Thank You!
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Re: Pattern making

#1331 Post by dw » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:59 pm

Jake,

Interesting! Who's that?

Maybe I just haven't gotten that far but I am just using the canvas the way you'd use a sheet of brown paper to make a medial forme and a lateral forme. And from there I make a mean forme.

I've tried to make patterns by drawing the lines on the last--on the canvassed-over last like in the photo you posted earlier. But, in the end, I can never bring myself to trust it.

For instance, if you are making an adelaide, the shield needs to have a certain symmetry...visually, at least. But when you draw the patterns on the last and cut them free, the two halves of the adelaide shield are never the same.

So I design the patterns from a mean forme and make a few adjustments in the the sequence and the way I last and it usually comes out pretty good.
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Re: Pattern making

#1332 Post by homeboy » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:56 am

Dee-Dubb,

That's a photo from Radek Zacharias. He's in the Czech Republic.

Well.....I've got some more learning to do, huh? Fun, ain't it! :bowdown:

Thanks! Jake
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Re: Pattern making

#1333 Post by dotfield » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:37 am

vonallentx wrote:I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.
I'd be interested in the pdf if you don't mind?

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Re: Pattern making

#1334 Post by petrache » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:36 am

dotfield wrote:
vonallentx wrote:I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.
I'd be interested in the pdf if you don't mind?
Me too,can someone send us a copy,please?

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Re: Pattern making

#1335 Post by petrache » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:54 am

petrache wrote:
dotfield wrote:
vonallentx wrote:I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.
I'd be interested in the pdf if you don't mind?
Me too,can someone send us a copy,please?
forgot to mention,found some tutorials on internet and i started to learn to make patterns for shoes(for example i began with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnXwi8e ... AnBaYulQBw and there are svetla ketlina and andrew wrigley also on youtube).

But i can,t find a tutorial for patterns for single cut oxfords ,the ones with single stich,one at the heel.can someone explain me or give me a link?

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Re: Pattern making

#1336 Post by dw » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:29 am

petrache wrote: But i can,t find a tutorial for patterns for single cut oxfords ,the ones with single stich,one at the heel.can someone explain me or give me a link?
I've never seen one.

I'm not expert on patternmaking...still stuck at the mean forme / standard method but I have made some "whole cuts."

I like to block rough patterns on a board before I start cutting the topline and facings, etc.. The board shape can be derived, using Patrick, from the mean forme / standard of an oxford and the topline and facing cut using that same standard.
whole cut board.jpg
Here's a student of mine with a pair he made with me:
DSCF2586 (800 x 600).jpg
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Of course you could also do it like this:
DSCF1440_2.jpg
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Re: Pattern making

#1337 Post by petrache » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:56 pm

ideas about wholecut oxford are even better.
thank you for your answer,but i don,t think i understood too much.so you have a mean form and from 2 forms you obtain the rough pattern and you cover the whole last with it ?but how you obtain this?how you join the 2 forms?
and after that you draw on the leather like it was tape on the last ?

sorry about so many questions,but i can,t find anywhere information about this,maybe you can help me.thank you .

btw,nice pair in the picture.love the clean look.hope someday i.ll be able to make a pair like these.now i,m still trying to learn patterns,what,s next after that some old shoe repairman will teach me.almost for free.

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Re: Pattern making

#1338 Post by dw » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:15 pm

Tape the last up. Cut a straight line from the toe to top of the cone and down the back.

Now you have a medial forme and a lateral forme. To get the mean forme, you have to average the shapes.

From the mean form you can get the standard and add all the lines for topline, facings quarters vamps. These are then transferred to pattern paper and there you have your cutting patterns for a regular oxford or derby.

All this is in Patrick, I am pretty sure.

For full cuts, if you stretch the leather over a board like the one shown above, you just use the mean forme to outline the two sides. Adjust the medial topline to be higher than the lateral topline. Add seam allowance at the back and cut the two sides out. Naturally, you wouldn't cut the leather down the front of the "vamp."

I don't know what esle to say...I'm not an expert.
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Re: Pattern making

#1339 Post by petrache » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:39 pm

dw wrote:Well, what a difference a few hours can make! Inspired by Rolf's photos last night, I prepared a piece of GN burnishable water buffalo to give this technique a try. Bear in mind that I am not trained as a shoemaker and some of my techniques differ from what is standard in other parts of the world.

GN burnishable buffalo is a fairly firm leather...the closest thing to crust that I have access to...and is fairly rough in texture. It is a veg-chrome retan. I wet it in warm water last night and let it soak overnight. I ran very warm water over it before I began.
10208.jpg


I began by tacking the heel dead center. Then I pulled the toe over...taut but not real tight. I tacked it dead center, then on either side of the toe to prevent twisting. I went back and put in two tacks on either side of the center heel tack, working up some moderate pipes in-between. Then I took a forward pulling draft at the medial and then the lateral joint. I was trying to move as much surplus out of the heel and waist area as I could. From there, I began to work around the heel a little ways, building in pipes but trying to keep them moderate. Then switched to back to the waist and drafted the medial arch pretty tight...again pulling leather away from the heel. After that it was just a matter of going back and working the pipes down and over the edge of the insole.

I alluded to the fact that I am trained as a bootmaker. I have never had anyone show me how to last in my lap and I find it exceedingly clumsy. So I "cheated"--I cut a hole in the leather over the thimble and put the last on my lapjack. This gave me the kind of leverage that I am comfortable with. I am sure that I will have to do penance, somewhere down the line, however. Image So be it.
10209.jpg

10210.jpg

10211.jpg


I would never claim to be an expert on this technique, but this is one way to do it. I have a new source of beautiful veg calf from Waterhouse Leather (tell Peter I sent you) that I think I will use to make a pair of these when I get my new last. It is a much smoother leather and I believe it will work even better than the burnishable buffalo.


Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by admin on October 13, 2009)
i read more on this forum and found this.sorry to bother you again,my last question .waht you do after that,after the leather is on the last ,how you make and put the lining?

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Re: Pattern making

#1340 Post by dw » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:08 pm

petrache wrote: i read more on this forum and found this.sorry to bother you again,my last question .waht you do after that,after the leather is on the last ,how you make and put the lining?
You take a silver pen and draw in the topline and the facings and cut along those lines--just like in Homeboy's post above, from March 29, 2014. Except you don't need all the pieces, of course, because you're making a full cut. Nor do you need to cut it down the back.

Once you have it cut, take it off the last and line it just as you would a regular oxford. When you cut it off the last, you'll have something that looks a lot like your standard.

If you had blocked a piece of leather on the board, you'd end up with something very similar except with a crease down the center of the vamp and and it would, of course be un-seamed and open at the heel.

Either way you have to close it and line it and then relast it.

I hope I am not assuming things here but I would suggest that you go back to Patrick and make a pair of regular oxfords first. Maybe this will all make more sense if you do that.

Beyond that, I really am glad to help, so please don't feel put off. It's just that sometimes learning to do things requires that you learn to do other things first. Just so you understand the basic concepts.
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Re: Pattern making

#1341 Post by lancepryor » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:18 pm

There is an interesting video of Foster & Sons' (London) Emma Lakin making a forme using a sheet of paper. This is how I saw Terry Moore (who trained Emma, I believe) do it. Remarkable how fast she is able to do it, versus using tape, or fabric, etc.

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2015/01 ... r-son.html

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Re: Pattern making

#1342 Post by dw » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:28 pm

lancepryor » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:18 pm wrote:There is an interesting video of Foster & Sons' (London) Emma Lakin making a forme using a sheet of paper. This is how I saw Terry Moore (who trained Emma, I believe) do it. Remarkable how fast she is able to do it, versus using tape, or fabric, etc.

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2015/01 ... r-son.html
Lance,

That's great!!! I have to try that.

Thank you for posting/sharing that.
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Re: Pattern making

#1343 Post by lancepryor » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:27 pm

It's not as easy as it looks! I think one of the keys is having paper of the right consistency -- neither too thick nor too thin. The paper they use in the UK is one I've never seen here, sort of a thinner kraft paper (if you have any Crack & Sons leather, I think it is the same stuff they use to wrap their leather). If you try it, mark your centerline, VP, top of facings location, back center line, and CP on the last, then fold the paper along the marked lines and note the VP, etc with your thumb nail.

Let me know how it works out.

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Re: Pattern making

#1344 Post by dw » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:18 pm

I did give it a try...three times...using a fairly lightweight craft paper. And the second one came out pretty close to a forme I had made using canvas. But I suspect it would be hard to duplicate the results consistently. Maybe the paper does make a difference. I know what you mean when you talk about the British paper.

That said, in my opinion, it's pretty hard to duplicate the accuracy and consistency of the canvas method. And canvas is a lot faster...if you don't count drying times of the rubber cement...than tape. The speed with which she made a forme however is something to see.

I guess I'd have to say that I don't know how accurate the formes have to be...which probably reflects my lack of formal training. Perhaps with experience you could trim and reduce and fudge, no harm, no foul. Might be a personal failing (another?) but in everything, I'm of the "more-accuracy-is-better" school. And speed ain't in it.
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Re: Pattern making

#1345 Post by HautenDandy » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:07 pm

Im new to this world and to this forum, so, as most do I will apologize in advance if my placement is off. I dont have much of a want to make custom bespoke shoes or boots as I fill my time with tailoring, which is my true love, but I have a passion for the process and seeing whats behind the passion and am always fascinating with learning a new craft.

I have an idea of a boot I want which I have yet to find, and in like most things my way (eccentric) I would like to get this idea out of my head and onto my feet, with that said, what I would like to know is how would I go about creating a pattern for a desert boot. Like the ones clarks are famed for. The catch of why I dont buy one of clarks. I would like to make it from canvas or wool with a vibram bottom. Is this doable? is canvas or wool at all viable in the world of desert boots? and should I make the last or just buy one, my size to shape the front of the wool. Where would I get or how would i go about the pattern for a desert boot? Again I will apologize for anything I have said that does not make sense, as I am completely ignorant in this new land.

Should I go the above route after obtaining a last? with brown paper then drawing out a pattern on it?

DW I wish I had found this site a bit sooner I just came back from a 2 month stay in bend.

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Re: Pattern making

#1346 Post by dw » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:54 am

HD,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.

In my opinion, you might want to rethink having a chukka or George boot made of felt or canvas. If they are made bespoke, they will cost you...probably $1k or more.

I simply don't think the fabric...especially the felt (unless it is "needled," which might help some) will give you the service you would expect from a shoe costing that much. No fabric is a durable as leather and it is worth remembering that your shoes are your interface with the world...and a world that is, if not hostile, at least not kind to footwear.

I would have enjoyed speaking with you when you were in Bend. I am kind of jonesing for a bespoke suit.
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Re: Pattern making

#1347 Post by grenik » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:33 pm

I have been planning and pattern making and have run into some problems. I am attempting to make a brogue derby shoe similar to the attached picture. This is my third pair of shoes, so very novice here (use small words and talk slowly and a little louder than normal :) )

I did the tape method as well as the geometric method in the beginning of Skyrme's Bespoke Shoemaking book as well as Koleff's Shoe & Boot Designing Manual. All the methods produced a similar outline of the shoe for me. My question is with the "fitting point". This is the point that marks where the front point of the quarter attaches to the vamp. Point E (Skyrme) or Point E3 (Koleff) is the base of the tongue and it is placed by measuring 10 mm up from the fitting point and 10 mm toward the back of the shoe.

I think I need 15 mm of seam allowance to do the broguing and a stitch line above and below. I am hand sewing. The fitting point, and hence the bottom of the quarter, is 10 mm below the base of the tongue. So I do not see that I have enough room to do the broguing on the quarter without making the tongue smaller (move point E up 5 mm) or the fitting point 5 mm lower. Any problem moving the fitting point 5 mm lower? Koleff seems to allow it for adjusting the size of the facings.

Secondly, in the picture, what is showing through the brogue holes along the facings and the top line? I assumed the sewing was just a decorative effect. Is the lining dyed? Is there another piece of leather inserted along the top line? I could probably make a top beading that was large enough to show through the holes, but that would not help me on the facings.

Cheers.
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Re: Pattern making

#1348 Post by dw » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:53 am

grenik » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:33 pm wrote:
Secondly, in the picture, what is showing through the brogue holes along the facings and the top line? I assumed the sewing was just a decorative effect. Is the lining dyed? Is there another piece of leather inserted along the top line? I could probably make a top beading that was large enough to show through the holes, but that would not help me on the facings.

Cheers.
I use the patterning book that Frank Jones put together--Patternmaking: Step by Step. Or Thornton or Patrick or even Golding on occasion. Many shoemakers pattern directly off the last. In any case, I am not familiar enough with Koleff's or Skyrme's system to comment about "fitting points."

I would only say to not get hung up on seam allowances, etc.. Many of these...in any of these systems...are good recommendations but are not iron-clad. They were intended as much to maximize cutting as anything else. If you need more than 15mm for any reason, give yourself more. Just be mindful of your skiving.

Second, the facings need another layer in-between the uppers and the lining to reinforce the eyes...esp. if no metal eyelets are used (and even then it's a good idea). The "facings backer" can be made of the same leather as your upper. That would solve the problem of the broguing on the facings. That's the way I do it. It can even extend all the way back along the topline to the heel. I've seen and done it that way. Of course, where full thickness is not needed (as it is around the eyes), skiving to blend into the upper without leaving a visible lump underneath is important.

As for around the topline, personally, I would simply make a a backing for the broguing (anywhere there is no overlap of seams) from the upper leather and split it really thin. You can pare this strip to thickness, by hand, while skiving it although it's much more labour intensive than with a Fortuna Bell Skiver set for splitting. I often do it by hand even though I have two Fortunas.

Use a thin paste or double sided tape to mount these strips behind the broguing (if using double sided tape, place the tape and punch your broguing through it). Don't use rubber cement or AP...it will never come out of the holes.
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Re: Pattern making

#1349 Post by grenik » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:46 pm

I am making my first derby style shoe. I made a mean form pattern from the taped method and I laid out the shoe using a geometric method (Koleff). Both methods gave very similar forms. In both cases I made a profile of the back of the last and used that to shape my master pattern. I made my templates and have been cutting test pieces of leather to practice folding the edges, testing different dyes, brogueing patters, toe medallions, etc. Just basically getting everything set before I cut my actual leather pieces for the shoe.

I took some of the test pieces and put them together and gave them a quick lasting to check how everything turned out on the pattern. Pictures are attached. There appears to be something wrong with the facings/quarter attachments, but some of that is that my quarters are not identical in dimensions. Still, I need to look at that area closer.

Of larger concern to me right now is that the side of the shoe is so short and the tongue/facings are so far down the front of the last. It is like the distance from the back of the shoe to the tongue is too large. There is no lining, stiffeners, counter, etc., so is this normal for this stage of the process? There is only 40 mm from top line to feather line at the shortest spot. I had targeted +/- 65 mm. I patterned the inside and outside of the shoe to be the same (I did not adjust the top line). It looks like the quarter is too long?
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Re: Pattern making

#1350 Post by ansesi » Fri May 01, 2015 4:13 am

Hi there,

Do you still have the pdf of the Patrick's book?. I am shoemaker in Barcelona and would like to have it. Perhaps you can put it on the dropbox cloud and share it with me. My dropbox user is jlopezlietor@gmail.com.

Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,

JJ[

quote="vonallentx » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:15 pm"]I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.[/quote]

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