The Crispin Colloquy

dw wrote:

lancepryor wrote:DW:

Maybe a couple of small foam pads mounted on the face edge of a workbench or table top would create enough give and friction to keep the last from sliding around?

(I'll have to try that myself!)

Lance

Worth a try...

BTW, for those interested...

DSCF2548_(800_x_600).jpg

Nice!

Is this the fabric wrapped technique Sharlot Batten demonstrated at one of the AGM that you've used to generate the form(e) for patternmaking. Nice application!


Georgene

1947redhed wrote:Is this the fabric wrapped technique Sharlot Batten demonstrated at one of the AGM that you've used to generate the form(e) for patternmaking. Nice application!


Georgene

Georgene,

I wasn't there but yes. I heard about it, asked a few questions of those who were and this is the result.

Once upon a time shoemakers used basil (sheep leather) to make formes. Except for the stretch inherent in the leather, this can't be too much different.

Lance,

Thnx. Incoming...

I always use autobody fineline tape for getting the straight line down the last, its 1/8" and made of plastic so you can stretch it from the thimble to the toe and then just push it down.
then you can just cut down the middle of the tape.

courtney

courtney wrote:I always use autobody fineline tape for getting the straight line down the last, its 1/8" and made of plastic so you can stretch it from the thimble to the toe and then just push it down.
then you can just cut down the middle of the tape.

courtney

Well that's a great idea! Where do you get it? Any auto parts store?

Any Auto Paint store, I dont think Carquest or Kragen type place would have it.
3m blue fineline tape

Courtney

Hi all,
I am working through Frank Jones book on patternmaking. I've went ahead and made a mean forme, keeping a seperate bottom line for inside/outside. I've just checked my pattern by transferring both inside/outside to non stretch canvas and zigzagging them together while lining up the VP and CP, as mentioned in the book.
For the most part I'm quite happy with how it fits the last. It contacts well at the necessary points and follows the feather line well also. In the first picture I've attached you can see the back line. I've also marked in the profile of the backline of the last. As you can see theres a portion with about 1mm extra. I used a 4.5" radius to draw the back line on the forme. Should I be moving this radius frontwards about 1mm? Should I be only bringing in the backline at the point that has excess or the whole length of the backline? Or will this last out and leave room for the heel counter? I'd like to make it as proper as possible before moving on to sectional patterns. I don't mind being picky. Any thing else you notice, please point it out, this is my first go around at draping.
Thanks for the help and advice,
Aaron

I found that the slack wasn't actually between the seat point and the counter point, but was actually from CP and a few mm below. So I essentially changed the location of the centre of the circle that I used to form the back curve. Took a bit of fiddling to find the best location for it, but it seems to have done the trick.
Aaron

Hi Aaron,

I start with the back line created by the taped form. At the top of center back I tighten the topline by 2mm, at the apex of the counter I add 2mm, and then use a template to draw the curve down to the lasting allowance. This results in consistently tight toplines and enough space to fit a counter.

Good luck.

jon_g wrote:Hi Aaron,

I start with the back line created by the taped form. At the top of center back I tighten the topline by 2mm, at the apex of the counter I add 2mm, and then use a template to draw the curve down to the lasting allowance. This results in consistently tight toplines and enough space to fit a counter.

Good luck.

Jon,

That's the way I do it too...mostly. I don't tighten the topline except for on the lining but I use the forme to create and alter back curves.

Thanks for the advice guys.
That is how I will be adjusting the back curve when making my pattern standard. I was just trying to figure out how to set the back curve for the mean forme. It's my understanding that the forme doesn't necessarily have allowances for stiffness etc, but the specific pattern standard does. Either way, question has been answered. Thanks!
Aaron

dw wrote:

jon_g wrote:Hi Aaron,

I start with the back line created by the taped form. At the top of center back I tighten the topline by 2mm, at the apex of the counter I add 2mm, and then use a template to draw the curve down to the lasting allowance. This results in consistently tight toplines and enough space to fit a counter.

Good luck.

Jon,

That's the way I do it too...mostly. I don't tighten the topline except for on the lining but I use the forme to create and alter back curves.

So does that mean the lining is slightly smaller that the upper and therefore pulls the quarters against the ankle? How much smaller?

This is an area where I have just been kind of making it up as I go so there is a lot of confusion on my part

Thanks,
Cody

Yes and no, the lining is smaller but that's because it is on the inside of the curve around the heel. If you don't make this adjustment you will have too much lining to deal with and end up fighting with wrinkles or your lining won't fit properly towards the front.

Jon

Lasting "seats up" tends to tighten the topline also.

Also, I make the lining 2mm smaller at the top of the heel and probably a good 1/8" plus smaller at the swell of the heel. You need to adjust the quarters themselves so that they are at least 1/8" larger at the swell of the heel, as well. Depends on the substance of your heel stiffener.

OK. I think Ive got it...
So the upper has to be larger just to fit over the lining and stiffener. I never realized how exact it was. of course my shoes never turned out great either. Live and Learn!

THanks again,

Cody

farmerfalconer wrote:OK. I think Ive got it...
So the upper has to be larger just to fit over the lining and stiffener. I never realized how exact it was. of course my shoes never turned out great either. Live and Learn!

Cody,

If you follow the guidelines/instructions in Golding or Patrick or esp. the book that Frank Jones has published (that's the one I use), adjusting your patterns to accommodate the heel stiff and create a tight topline is pretty easy.

And eventually, hopefully (I'm hopeful at any rate) you get to the point where you don't need the books...maybe even do things a bit contrary to what the books recommend.

But even at that point being exact is critical. All excellence begins and ends with precision and attention to detail. Sam Luchesse once made the point that every step in the process is dependent on the previous step. The person cutting/clicking the leather has to know, with absolute certainty, that the patterns have been drawn up with exactitude. The person who takes those pieces of leather and starts assembling them into tops, quarters...shoes or boots...depends on the precision of the clicker. A slight mis-cut can make placement of the vamp difficult. If the quarters are cut as little as one-sixteenth of an inch too small it can choke the throat of a boot, make lasting difficult, the boot or shoe present poorly, and the customer unhappy.

And so it goes.

Does anyone here regularly make shoes for children? Do you have any tips to pass along? I have Koleff's pattern book (and his last-making book which I used to make the last), but I am unclear whether there are specific alterations I should make to the patterns to make them appropriate for kid feet.

I did make one pair for my son (2 yrs old) basically following the veldtshoen pattern - and it seemed to work out for the most part. To be lightweight summer shoes I used 2 oz. leather with no lining and a strip of elastic instead of the strap/buckle. I glued and stitched the upper flanged out onto another layer of 2 oz. and then stitched that onto a thin piece of rubber (from the leg of a rubber boot) for the sole. When he's not just running around barefoot, he mostly prefers these shoes to any mass produced ones. But now I'm needing to make some more substantial cold weather shoes and wanting any advice you all may care to share.

Casey

Take your success and build on it. Learn from your short comings. The kid likes the shoes and is growing, --so new lasts for growing into. Take into account this cool weather pair need room also for "insulation". At least a lining, but if cold, also an interfacing layer. I suggest a (thin) non-woven interlining, if you need some insulation - Pellon-- loose (too many choices of Pellon to describe. Pellon is not made for shoes but readily available, and can be used in footwear creatively) . Build all that allowance into your upper pattern. Maybe raise the top line a little accordingly, and put on a thin grippy sole.
Sorry I cannot follow and respond more regularly to this , my favorite forum.
Good luck
David

David, thanks for the reply.

I had thought of maybe even making the lining out of some wool fabric, so I might not need the interfacing. Would the interfacing really add that much insulation? I've got some around for clothing making... And yes, growing feet mean larger lasts, etc. I've got all that to look forward to as well.

So when it comes to making patterns, if I were to use the geometric method, could I just use "men's shoe" instructions but with his measurements? And can basically any pattern be converted to a veldtshoen by just flipping the outer out?

Oh, and another question - how thin can veg tan leather be skived before it is useless as a heel counter, toe box, and such? It is hard to imagine using anything thicker than about 2oz in his little shoes - and they may not really require them... I don't know.


Casey

Hi Casey,
There are more questions than I feel qualified to reply to. My first unqualified answer is about the geometric child patterns and how to compensate. For patterns I use the mean forme method, primarily, so cannot speak expertly about the geometric systems. The mean forme method of patternmaking assumes fit issues have already been addressed in the last, and the last holds the answer to the patterns. That said, you are working incrementally with the shoes for your child, and you simply need to increase your previous allowances in width and length anticipating the growth rate. Remember the width grades more mildly than the length, and in kids sizes, you do not want to choke the toes. Ever!
I've been very pleased at how a non-woven interfacing between upper and lining insulate footwear. It is the "dead airspace" that the non-woven interfacing simulates and that's why it provides warmth. We have little room in footwear to mess with insulation, so this is an oft used method. However when a shoe will be discarded frequently, due to growth, a felt or wool lining might suffice. I, personally, just HATE fabric as a shoe lining. It is non durable and clings to the foot.
Skiving and splitting veg for reinforcements...Okay, I am going to get into trouble here... I often use reinforcements made from fabrics and extremely thin veg. Why? because I want thin, light and no xray effect. I'll rely on the reinforcement material only as the "holder" of the paste between the upper and lining as my stiffener. This gives a lot of latitude in how stiff I want my reinforcement. ie. 6-7 oz veg heel counters for my ankle supportive counters, or only thin cotton blend fabric as a lady's fashion toebox. In each case I consider the material for the reinforcement only as a holder for the paste, and get immensly different results, from hard to flexible. Don't be shy of thin toe and heel reinforcements where appropriate. Rely on the paste to bond 3 layers- of lining, upper and reinforcement for the stiffening effect (like plywood). One simple and effective paste is a mix of wallpaper paste and carpenter's glue. There are also other pastes available and referenced in other threads on the colloquy.
David

Hello there!
This is the first time I am posting and feeling a bit nervous. I have some patterns of shoes I have made that I would like to grade and I don't have very good information on how to do this. When I try to enlarge or decrease my pattern size I usually make a new pattern each time trying to get it to look like the original and this takes so much time for me. I have recently had a baby and now have less time so I am trying to find ways of being more efficient! Is there a good way to grade a pattern? Any info or help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance,
Lila

Lila,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.

There are ways to grade shoe patterns up or down. Tools, even, that can help. I'm not fully awake this morning and not sure where the last time I saw a set of instructions--maybe Patrick's Modern Patternmaking.

But I suspect that grading relates more to production work than bespoke. That's why I haven't paid much attention to those chapters when I ran across them.

Thornton---which is downloadable from the HCC website may have a pretty good run-down on this technique. that's where I'd start if I were you.

Nothing really inspiring here, except a wide round toe winter boot with plenty of room for thick socks. (burnishable water buffalo calf bottoms and waxed kangaroo tops).

Except I was inspired and guided by my good friend Janne Melkersson to try making a pair of "seamless" boots (for a lack of a better term) like European makers. I wanted a smooth European inside and a traditional 4-piece Wellington outside.