Pattern making

[artzend]

Paul,

With open backed sandal types like flip flops you should really move the back of the inside strap back further than the back of the inside strap. This stops your heel from walking inwards off the insole.

Tim

[dw]

Rob, Tim, Al, anyone...?

It is my understanding that on high quality men's shoes--low quarters--the topline of the quarter is often made higher on the medial side of the shoe than on the lateral.

How is this done? In lasting or in patterning?

If it is done in patterning, where is the variance begun and where does it end? Is is a blend from the quarter to the heel? If so, doesn't it need to be at its highest just under the midpoint of the heel line? If so, how can it be blended back into the topline of the quarter so that it doesn't affect the way the back of the shoe closes?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here...all the questions in the previous paragraph are dependent upon the answer to the question of "lasting or patterning."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

I hadn't heard that but it seems simple enough to just pull one side lower, when lasting. The real trick is not to unintentionally pull the top line too low. One has to pull carefully in this zone and keep a finger on the topline to insure it's not getting pulled lower than desired.

[artzend]

DW,

You can do it with the patterns and that is probably the best way, but when you sight along the topline when you have pulled the upper down to the back height mark, the outside will be lower (or should be) than the inside. I think that is just the shape of the last doing it.

You can raise the inside topline by around 5mm/3/16" but with joggers I reckon you can go to 10mm/7/16". You just draw your topline as normal, and then for the inside, at the lowest point before it curves up to the facings, mark in your 5mm/3/16" point above the line and blend a line in to it.

If you do this you have to be sure which upper you have on the last. It is really frustrating to start lasting only to discover you have the wrong upper.

Tim

[dw]

Tim, Rick,

So...you really don't need to extend it too far back? I had the impression that the extra 5mm might be right under the ankle bone? But if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that...on an Oxford, say...you really only need to raise it so that the bottom of the curve coming from the facing (going towards the heel) is that 5mm bit higher and then just angle/blend into the same topline in the ankle/heel-line area as exists on the outside. Is that right? Does my interpretation make sense?

I think it is probably very possible to do this in lasting but I have read that it is often done in patterning and from that I started to think about whether or not the back stay, and even the facings, might not be pulled a bit off kilter if I relied on lasting to achieve this. Maybe not?

I've seen the heel stiffener and/or counter cover be higher on the inside even on boots, with just a "normal" lasting procedure where you are trying to keep things even. So if it can be done without any dire effects just by lasting, I guess I'd rather try it that way...at least until I get a little bit of experience under my belt.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

Yes don't get too hung up on that 5mm thing when starting out. It is nice but not important and it makes your job easier if you don't have to worry about which upper goes on which last. Just sight along the topline from the back when you pull the back down and you should see the outside a bit lower than the inside.

If you last up like my videos you will see it fall into place ok. If you want to get all pedantic about inside and outside heights you can get involved with raising the inside of wingtips or mudguards and saddles too. I would just go for a straightforward pattern for the beginning.

Good luck.

Tim

[relferink]

DW, Tim & Rick,

My training is different. We were taught to ALWAYS make separate inside and outside quarters, both for men's and women's shoes.
This is not a men's shoe but it is the best illustration I can find without going into the shop to pull a customers patterns:

5307.jpg

5308.jpg

These images come from the boot "basis grondpatronen" by Bert Donders, one of the best foowear technology teachers I've had.

With this method the topline of the quarters is not offset by a set number of millimeters, it's based on the ball line from the mean forme so it automaticly adjusts for sizing differences.

Maybe one day I'll get around to putting all this in a book, the thought of being able to go on a worldwide book signing tour has me intrigued. (they get very exciting every time I mention "book signing tour" )

Rob

[relferink]

Oops, that second image got a little larger than it should have been. I don't seem to be able to edit the image or upload another one in it's place, is that the software or operator error?

[artzend]

DW Rob etc,

With the sort of shoe you have there I would always raise the inside. It just seems too much bother for a man's shoe in most cases. Especially if patterns are not your thing. The inside/outside difference thing takes care of itself.

I really like the sound of the worldwide book signing tour but am not sure I am as fired up as those guys.

Tim

[dw]

Rob,

So...correct me if, and where, I'm wrong...the lower line corresponds to a line from the counterpoint to half the jointline and the upper line corresponds (roughly) to a line from the CP to a point on the jointline--what?--5mm?...1cm? above that? Or is there some other way of determining the "arrow" line?

When you get around to writing that book, I'll buy a copy...if I haven't already "caught the bus," that is.

Make sure you include a pattern for saddle shoes, though. That's what I'm looking for.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

All,

This same setup is used for every shoe, not just a T-strap. In my pattern books do not show the difference as clearly when the focus is on the pattern style. This model is particular clear as your medial and lateral lines don't merge on the facing.

This way of setting up a pattern is by the HE-86 system, derived from the "Golden Mean" or the Latin "sectio aurea", a way to divide a line into two uneven, yet proportionally balanced sections. The "sectio aurea" was first mentioned by Da Vinci in the 1500's but some believe that the theoretical basis was used by the ancient Egyptians and Greeks in the design of their pyramids and temples.
The human eye is supposed to be attracted to the proportions as a recognition of "natural beauty".

The pattern above is set up is with a 22 degree ball line, half the ball line brings you onto the lateral closing line, the medial closing line (just above the arrow) is 3/8th the length of the ball line.
The arrow is actually pointing to the point where you rotate you pattern, not the medial closing line.
Note: you don't draw to the counter point (CP) but the back height.

I don't have a pattern for a saddle shoe, it's to much of an specific American style for it to be listed in any of my school books but your basis is the oxford. Just as with Oxfords, the proportions could be tricky and it's easy to create an odd looking vamp curve. I would advice to draw the pattern on the last and copy to get your patterns.

On the book, if your not in any particular hurry to "get on the bus" you should be OK, just remember to enjoy & in moderation to get

Rob

[dw]

Another question...how large (long) is the heel stiffener generally made? I have one source that says that the leading edge of the heel stiffener should be toe-ward of a point two thirds of the way from the the heel to the ball. Laying out my pattern this seems awfully long...accustomed as I am to making it somewhat longer than one-third the distance from the heel to the joint. Certainly longer than what is seen in even high end commercial work.

For instance, on Rob's pattern above, the source I have says that the stiffener should extend to somewhere in the neighborhood of the quarter seam in the what looks to be the waist....the line on the quarter running poarallel to the jointline but back toward the heel a bit. It's almost half the stick of the foot?!!

Any advice, comments, explanation or suggestions here would be appreciated.

BTW, thanks for holding my hand on some of this.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

The longer the stiffener the better. The 2/3 thing is probably about right. I can't remember a standard length, just don't make it too short.

With court shoes the inside of the stiffener should be made to reach the joint if possible. The outside does not need to be as long.

To a shoemaker, the stiffener on a cowboy boot is really short. if that helps.

Tim

[das]

DW,

Depending on the foot, last, uppers leathers, and which way the wind's blowin'....

I usually run mine forward of the heel breast, but shy of the side-seam by eye.

Al

[relferink]

DW,

Rule of thumb; last length equals counter length.
By the time you go around the heel you'll be at about 2/3's from the heel to the ball. If you want a shorter counter, go shorter laterally but be careful not to end your counter over the base of the 5th metatarsal.
Ideally your toebox, side linings and heel counter form one continues wrap around the foot.

Don't go to much by the quarter seam since that can be placed in a verity of places and does not have any significance related to the counter.
The height should be back height + 10 mm. For European size 42 the standard back height is 65 mm, add one mm for each size larger, subtract 1 mm for each size smaller.

5312.jpg

The shape as in the picture, A to B is last length, X to Y height + 10 MM.
A1, B1 C1 and D1 all 5 mm from A, B, C and D. E 20 mm from C, F 20 mm from D. No difference in medial and lateral but you could certainly make the lateral side a couple of millimeters lower. At least that's what I normally do.

Rob

[relferink]

BTW the photograph makes the lines look crooked, the dotted lines are straight, set up with a ruler. ABCD form a rectangle. You had probably figured that out already but just in case.

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

Jeez! Thanks!! I just can't express my appreciation enough for the help you fellers have given me and the way you have stepped up and "opened a vein" for all of us (and posterity).

A quick question: When you say "X to Y height + 10 MM" may I assume that you mean topline height at the heel plus 10mm for lasting allowance? And if so, how far below the top should the counter be mounted when lasting? My patterns say 10mm. Sound about right?

Thanks again!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

One other question...I've always thought midliners should rise above the welt line no more than 10mm or say, half an inch...just enough to reinforce the inseam. Are you saying it should be more than that? If so, how much more?

And yet another question of "protocol"...on an oxford is it customary to inseam entirely around the shoe or...as I've been planning...is welting to the breast on the lateral side and pegging on the medial side, combined with a heelseat/rand not too outrageous? Acceptable?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

Your welcome for the help but if you start throwing kisses around I would prefer you to shave first

Yes, I mean height of the topline + 10 MM. The X-Y above already includes the 10 MM. I always put my counter as high as it will go. That will prevent the top to soften up and fold over if a shoehorn is not consistently used. In real life you will always be a couple of MM below the very top but higher is better here, or at least I think so.

I have my sideliners / midliners up along the side off the last and end them where the last starts curving significantly. This means that the medial lining is slightly higher than the lateral.
When you blend it into the curve of the last it is easier to make the edges disappear. Not sure that I ever took a measurement of the height.

Anything you feel like is acceptable, especially the way you kiss up to the "judges"
I would think protocol would be to inseam around, as Marcell showed in the video or from heel breast to heel breast. Don't take my word for this one, I'm just making an educated guess here.

Rob

[dw]

Rob, Tim, anyone,

I've never done a hung lining and I've never done an inserted heel stiffener, so I'm a little unsure of the sequencing for my oxfords.

I presume you turn edges and close your quarters; add tongues and quarter linings; then add vamps; and then..somehow...add the vamp linings. I am not sure about how exactly to go about this. I can't quite "see" it in my head. I am assuming that the vamp liner wants to be sandwiched in-between the quarter liner and the quarters. If so, how is the vamp liner sewn in without also sewing it to the vamps?

In Marcell's video it appears that the vamp liner is attached at the vamp/facing point. If I am seeing it correctly, how is this done?

And just because I am feeling my ignorance I thought I would post a small jpg to reassure myself as much as anyone that I do have some skills along this path from bootmaker to a more "complete" shoemaker.

PS. Rob, I'm fresh from the razor this morning....

5314.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, I posted a bunch of questions on the wrong thread earlier, some of which have already been answered here, but not all.

Do you cement your midlinings to the lining and/or upper leather?

I am also wondering if I should forego the midliners for the time being, so the shoes I am working on now can adjust to my feet more easily if I don't have the treadline in the perfect place...

Jenny

[artzend]

DW,

Have a look at my book. I show how to put the oxford together there. You can stitch the upper to the linings but that means that your stiffener may have to be shortened to fit into a pocket governed by the design of the vamp line.

It is really better to have a bag lining, it look neater without the stitching showing on the inside of the shoe.

Tim

[artzend]

Jenny,

Yes I think that sidelinings at this stage are going to just give you more work for not enough result yet. For a start the skiving must be really good, they can not show through the upper.

About the treadline, have you marked the joint on the side of the last? I would like to see that because it would then tell us if the treadline is in fact in the right place or not. Can you post a photo of that please. I am a bit concerned that changing the bottom of the last is a bit hit and miss.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

I just shifted to your book (I have several...from Golding to Koleff to Patrick) looking for information on closing. Haven't read through it yet but when I do I'm sure I will have some question or other.

I am just starting to create patterns...I have them drafted, just need cutting patterns. But, I haven't figured out what to use for leather yet.

I have a pair of alligator boots I have to last right now...this minute.

I'll get back at ya....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

There is a complete closing sequence there for oxfords as well as for a derby. Any questions will be slickly passed on for others to answer.

Tim