Pattern making

[guy_shannon]

Hi Joel.

When I had a problem with a boot I would run down to the second hand store and buy a similar boot shoe etc. and rip it apart and make patterns from the manufactures product. I would explain it to customers as reverse enginering the product and it works.

Guy Shannon

[tomo]

Are there any advantages to using CAD programs to formulate patterns?
And if the pattern is bigger than say A4 how do you print it off.
Is CAD difficult to use?

More power t o y'awl.
T.

[tommick]

Tom O'Sullivan,

I've spent years of my life using CAD and engineering things. What is hard to explain to people about CAD is that you're not making a drawing, you're actually making a design. There is no "picture", everything is actually mathematics inside the program. You can zoom in infinitely with no loss of exactness.

The beauty of it is that you can fit things together. You can make easy adjustments without actually cutting out any patterns.

The hardest thing for people to learn is the CAD paradigm. You just have to forget about drawing anything. That's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

I have some boot CAD designs with designs based on Patrick, Koleff, Sharp, Frommer, Merrill each on different layers that I can turn off and on at will. I can see exactly how the patterns differ from each other.

I print out patterns on 8.5 x 11 cardstock and tape several together to get a final pattern. I have a layer with slanted gridlines that I turn on when printing and it allows me to line up multiple sheets.

There are freeware CAD programs on the web so you may just want to try some of those. The learning curve can be tough but for someone who already knows CAD then it seems quite natural to make patterns in CAD.

Mickel (Tom)

[dw]

Tom,

I can't speak directly to CAD programs...all I have is a drawing program--CorelDraw. But I do use it to design and print out patterns--primarily ornamental cutting and sewing patterns but some components patterns as well.

I have always found that there are really no shortcuts to good work, however. Pattern work included. I usually lay out a pattern in paper to get a sense of shape and proportion before I transfer it into the computer. Once it is in digital form, I can refine the pattern such that all lines are fair curves and each half of the pattern is symetrically mirrored in the other half. And that's just the beginning of what I can do to refine a pattern. After that, the main advantage is repeatability.

But a problem arises with CorelDraw (I don't know if this would apply to CAD). If I try to reduce the size of a pattern, going from a pattern suitable for a large man's boot to one for a smallish woman's boot, some of the proportions and elements of the patterns will grade so far down as to be unusable. Points become too small and too sharp to cut or stitch, etc..

I can get around this to some extent and with some fussing and fooling around. But, in general, reducing a pattern tends to reduce everything proportionately. Of course, I can stretch a pattern lengthwise or widthwise but then fair curves become mutant ellipssoids and need to be redesigned all over again.

I would be interested to see if CAD could get around these problems...especially the issue of fair curves.

Beyond that, I have included patterns that are way oversize in my books...which are in pdf format. I find that this works if you take the time to break the patterns into logical and discrete sections...with careful and accurate indexing marks...so that the reader may print them on standard letter size paper and reconnect them correctly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
at loose ends...

[dw]

Tom Mickel,

Hey Tom...are there any free cad programs that you can recommend that will do most of what is necessary without the distortions I mentioned above?

Or what would a person look for in a CAD program...I am pretty sure I don't need 3D capability.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

CAD?????

Ok guys, just finished shoeing the horse, went to the river for the water for the squirrel stew, got oil in the lamp...

I have never heard of it, I am barely computer literate enough to send a message. Is there any way to take old school ways to this program? I still cut standard pattern and ajust for heel and calf measurement with a tape measure and compare the crimp break with the counter, by hand and eye, on the last I will use. I can get the right throat measurement easy and the pull curve for the side seam is always straight.

Then again, that's why they call me 'Old School JesseLee'. Seriously, I would like to get together with someone to transfer the old school techniques to a program. It may help for those doing old timey boots, I think there are a few others. But it's really all in the boards, lasts, lasting skills and measurements.

Old School JLC

[frank_jones]

Patterns for uppers and producing them using CAD is an interesting area.

The commercial CAD packages used in shoemaking have several elements. These cover not only patterns for making footwear but data for last production; designing footwear on the screen which can be rotated, have its color and texture changed etc.; data for the production of dies and sole moulds and even data for rapid prototyping - just to mention a few items.

I am going to concentrate on CAD for producing upper patterns, so as to keep things relatively simple.

There are somewhere between five and ten major players in the field and I am talking about software and systems specifically designed for the shoemaking, not engineering based or generic CAD software. Shoemakers needs are different to many other CAD applications. To give two major reasons for this distinction - shoemakers make the finished product in say seven sizes and three widths, and shoes have many lines with curves based on biological shapes, which often have to have dependent parallel lines. I have never seen any generic CAD system that deals well with problems like these.

CAD software for producing upper patterns is often called Pattern Engineering Software and it normally follows shoemaking practice by working in two-dimensions. It could fairly be described as a vector drawing program with specific extras added. Think of Illustrator or Corel, produced specifically for shoemaking but on steroids.

However, the software is only part of the story. As has been questioned above how, do you get the patterns out of the computer in a form which can be used to make real footwear? I would add to that how do you get the flattened surface of the last into the computer at the start of the pattern process.

The best way to get the patterns out of the system is to cut them directly from the completed pattern data using a cutting table. These look rather like oversize desktop plotters, with a cutting head rather than just a pen and that is exactly what they are. In fact the data output format used by all commercial footwear CAD systems is a driver for a Hewlett Packard Plotter. The bigger tables, the ones measuring two metres by two metres or larger, start at $50000. However, smaller ones about 400mm by 200mm are under $9000. The alternative is to use a large desktop plotter (under $1000 even for a big size) and then cut out the patterns by hand.

One question was - are there any advantages to using CAD? If you make similar styles of footwear on lasts which are not unlike each other, you can easily modify any detail and then output the new patterns for any upper sections that have changed. It is rather like printing out a modified document from a word processor rather than typing the whole page again on a typewriter.

The other question was “is it difficult to use”. It is certainly a lot better now than it was say five years ago. That is partly because all the major systems now run on Windows rather than Unix and have menus with familiar items such as Open, Save, Save as, Cut, Copy, Paste, etc. However, they are not like using word processing software more like high-grade Desktop Publishing.

I will stop there for now.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

(Message edited by frank_jones on March 19, 2007)

(Message edited by frank_jones on March 19, 2007)

[rocketman]

Being a CAD victim myself, I can add to Frank's excellent description that a good way to get the pattern out of the CAD is to just email it to a clicker die maker and have them make a cookie cutter for a fee. If you are willing to invest in an expensive CAD package, the dies will be an acceptable expense. If you are a production shop, this would make sense and really speed up cutting.
I would however warn that CAD will be frustrating and you will end up spending a lot more time in front of the computer and less time making boots. I can't name a "good" cheap package because it must do what we called sheet metal designs (using thin walls and building hollow structures like duct-work) Those packages allow you to unwrap a 3D design and build the flat patterns. TurboCAD is in the 100$ range but I'm not sure it would really suffice. RhinoCAD is a great package for 3D and I remember it being in the less than a thousand range. AutoCAD is more in the 500$ range. ProE is in the 10K range. I'll bet the cost of the real shoe software is quite a bit more. I think I would agree with Jesse that maybe it's not worth it. Note that I have used all packages mentioned, except the shoe specific, and have left out what I really think of some of them.
FWIW, Lyle

[tommick]

I have years of engineering experience using 2D CAD. I am a part-time hobbiest footwear maker and I use CAD to do lots of things because I don't have to really think about the CAD process when I design something. All the keyboard commands are etched in my brain from 1000+ CAD drawings.

Would I specifically learn CAD to design footwear? Probably not.

I just completed making Birch Euro-style cabinets for my sons room and I used CAD to design all the cases.

I remodeled our master bathroom last year with a really complex tile pattern and I put it on CAD so I could get the number of each size tile that I would need and also to see how they would fit in the space and line up with each other.

So for me it's like using a hammer. You could use a rock if you had no hammer but if you already have the hammer and know how to use it then it becomes just another tool in your toolbox. Nothing special really. It doesn't give you anything that you don't already have (at least the 2D non-footwear specific kind).

But that being said, once I get a design input into CAD, I can scale it any amount in both the x and y direction. I keep stitch patterns on separate layers and I can scale those to the tops. I can change the scallop at will. Anything you can do on paper you should be able to do on the CAD system and for me it is tons faster (but I have no learning curve remember).

Don't be fooled, you can print patterns on a $99 printer. Yes, you will have to tape several sheets together but you only have to do that when you are actually ready to cut leather.

I make last drafts using the tape method. I scan them with a desktop scanner and I use a raster to vector translation program to get them into the CAD system. This all works great for a guy who doesn't have lasts made from CAD drawings and who doesn't have dies made or leather cut from CAD either. I just output paper patterns.

Hope this helps.

Mickel (Tom)

[tomo]

Thanks everyone for your input and various takes on the CAD system. What an amazing range of responses, from Frank's experience of it being directly applicable in the footwear industry to Jesse's rustic and down to earth explanation. Thanks Lyle and Tom for giving me an idea on using it from an other perspective and DW for your input on Coral.
You've all given me a lot to think about.

More Power to y'awl.
Tomo

[dw]

Tom Mickel,

I use CorelDraw the same way and I have the same bias's against too much "high tech" in the bespoke bootmaking process as you do. But like you I regard the computer as a tool.

Not to get too esoteric, but I think that the critical thing is the degree of seperation. For me, to have someone else stitch your tops is far more divorced from the bootmaking process than to use software to refine and print out patterns of your own design and invention.

I don't think we need to go back to knapping flint to cut leather in order to pursue quality or even traditional skills. Of course that's a bit of an exaggeration but the idea is the same across the board. If it is your idea and your labour and there is a direct link between your mind and your intentions, and the actual implementation of those ideas, then there is no difference between using a pencil to draw a stitch pattern and/or using a mouse pointer.

That's my take and, with all due respect and apologies in advance, to tell the truth I think that at bottom...in some fundamental, almost metaphysical sense...it is as "old school" as you can get.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

All,

This past week, I made a cutting template of easy to intermediate complexity (some curves needing to be very precise) out of some zinc sheeting I purchased a bit ago. I traced the pattern I wanted onto a sheet of typing paper and cemented it onto the zinc. Then I took a sharp exacto knife and "scribed" (cut) the outline of the pattern into the zinc. Then I used a jeweler's saw and rough cut the shape. (I could have...and did, where it didn't matter...cut all the way through if I had wanted but it was going to be too much work.) The exacto and chainsaw file worked to clean up the edges and bring everything down to the scribed lines.

I was pretty pleased with the results. The whole technique was surprisingly accurate. The zinc was just hard enough that I think it will resist damage when cutting for patterns but soft enough that I could carefully pare away the edges until I had it exactly to spec.

Of course, zinc was used for patterns historically but I wanted to check it out for myself. I'll use this cutting pattern a bit and see how it holds up and then I may replace a number of my patterns with the zinc. Personally, I think that if it works out, I would choose it over formica (what I have been using) or lexan or any other material I've encountered.

Just thought I'd pass these preliminary observations along...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on May 28, 2007)

[dw]

Just finished this set of three static or cutting patterns. All three of them are made from zinc. They are extremely precise...maybe more precise than any patterns I have ever made before. The two that are bilaterally symmetrical are perfect on both left and right edges. ..so that you could trace around the pattern, flip it over and the outline would match the tracing exactly.

Not any easier or faster than making formica or lexan patterns but not any harder either. But a lot more accurate.

5066.png

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Sorry about the extra post.

BTW, I just downloaded a small image editing program called paint.net [can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/b8xma ] and resized and cropped this last photo with it just to see how it worked. And I saved it in .png format.

This is a pretty good little program for the price--FREE!! It's only a 1.3mb download although it has to be unzipped.

Might be a good proggie for someone looking to edit and resize photos for posting to the internet.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

I justed designed a one piece upper hiking boot pattern, using George Koleff geometric design method, Upper, Bellow Tongue and Padded Collar.

I'm about to start the pattern for the lining and I'm not sure how it is suppose to fit with the upper.

Here's my problem, the top line around the ankle is padded. He is calling for a 5mm seam allowance around the top line. I don't understand why I need a seam allowance if the upper and lining are going to butt up agianist the padded collar. Or do I stitch the lining, collar and upper together and then trim the lining back with a french edger?

Isn't the padded collar going to act just like a top bead on a western cowboy boot? I thought the top bead was there to give the boot a more finished look. Wouldn't the collar do the same?

Also, If I rolled the edge of the top line on the upper, before I attached the collar, would that give the boot a more finish look?

If any could give some advice I would greatly appreciate it, Joel

[artzend]

Joel,

You need at least 5mm trimming allowance at the top so you can catch in the lining. You trim it back to the stitching later. You should probably make one row of stitching to hold the padding in place and then, when you have glued the lining in place, you make another row of stitching all around the topline and catch the lining in that. You may have difficulty holding it all together without the stitching.

I would also reduce the back by about 2mm too. By that you should put your fold 2mm inside the standard back line. The dreaded Orange Peel Effect again. Then reduce the bottom by 5mm as he says, which effectively makes it 7mm reduction which is as it should be.

Make sure that your lining is fairly light so it stretches into place. There are no curves built into this pattern.

Tim

[j1a2g3]

Tim

Could you explain this better? Are you talking about the lining here;

"I would also reduce the back by about 2mm too. By that you should put your fold 2mm inside the standard back line. The dreaded Orange Peel Effect again. Then reduce the bottom by 5mm as he says, which effectively makes it 7mm reduction which is as it should be."

I understand the 5mm reduction. I'm not sure what you mean by 2mm.

I was wondering if I could make the lining just like the upper, one piece with the seam on the medial side of the shoe or up at the toe area?

Thanks for your help, Joel

[j1a2g3]

Tim,

Here is the patterns I cut out for the 1 piece hiking boot.

5186.jpg

I don't like the two piece lining, especially where the seams are located. Do you have any suggestions. Thanks Joel

(Message edited by j1a2g3 on July 10, 2007)

[artzend]

Joel,

Your lining must be smaller than the upper or you will not be able to fit it properly. Just move the fold inwards by 2mm/1/8", you can cut it in one piece, that stays the same.

I don't really like that sort of lining either. Any seam run down the front has the potential to be seen through the upper. I tend to use an oxford vamp shape which means the vamp lining is smooth. When I close the front of the leg lining I tend to use a 10mm/7/16" overlay on one side. This is better than the closed seam that George was using, once again it doesn't show and is smoother. Leave one side net and add the allowance to the other. Where it has to curve, you can nick into the overlay so it will spread and fit.

Does that make sense?

Tim

[j1a2g3]

Tim,

Thanks for the advice. I think I understand it now. Joel

[j1a2g3]

Tim,

I see that you taught pattern making using George Koleff method of geometric design.

I increased all his lasting allowances by 10mm becasue I didn't think I would have enough leather in certain spots. I just saw that you recommend increasing the toe b2-b1 by 40mm. I think I have enough leather there but it is going to be tight. I will differently keep that in mind next time.

If you look at my patterns in the post above, the bellow tongue is suppose to be sewn under the upper. It doesn't overlap the front at all. I would like to change the tongue design so it is sewn on top of the upper and then folded under and away on each side.

By putting the tongue on top of the upper, it will allow me to cover the open seam of the lining and upper. This will help keep out any dirt and water that might work it's way in between the leathers.

Could you give me advice on how to design such a tongue using Koleff's Method? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, Joel

[artzend]

Joel,

I may need to change that instruction, you just need to add 5mm to make b1-b2 to 40mm not 35mm. This gives you a lasting allowance of 20mm/3/4", the other added measurements are there for the same reason. George used a 15mm lasting allowance and not the 20mm/3/4" one that I consider is normal. The main thing that is important there though is to drop the vertical from b2 and not get caught up with the line George drew from b2 to r3. If you follow that one you are bound to find that there is not enough material to last over the sides of the toe. I can guarantee that at some time that will happen.

The bellows tongue should have a 5mm trimming allowance added. Don't forget that the laces are going to be holding the edges together along with the eyelets and the stitching as well as any glue you have used to fit the bits together so I don't think that you will have to worry about anything getting in.

If you were going to add extra material for wrapping around the facing edges you would need to add at least 9mm to go over two edges and the surface of the facing edge plus another 10mm or so to give you enough material to put the wheel on when you sew along the facing edge again before trimming off the excess. This would add yet another layer to the problems you are already having with stitching this together.

To reduce some of that thickness you could try reducing the lining along the facings edges. You should have sewn up the outside of the reinforcement to hold that in place first, and that will hold efficiently, if you now trim the lining back buy 5 mm or so it may mean that the thickness on the edge is reduced enough for your machine to handle.

Did you try reducing the needle size you are using. If you go to a #18 there should be less stress on the machine as long as the thread only fills 1/2 the hole. You need a slightly bigger needle than standard when you sew heavy leathers but maybe the #20 is just too big for your machine. I always had problems with my post machine as it didn't like anything too thick, and did most of my sewing on a flatbed. You can do some really tricky stuff with only one machine if you persevere.

Tim

[mrs_hill]

could anyone help me with a sandal vamp question?

I am making a pair of sandals. I made the pattern by forming a scrap of leather on the persons foot and drawing on it the shape of the sandal.

Is the sandal vamp suposed to be somewhat symetrical? more specificaly, are the straps that attach to the sole supposed to look the same or be the same width on both sides?

here is a picture of a sandal that I am styling mine after:

5235.jpg

[artzend]

Wende,

The vamp on a sandal like that can be more or less symmetrical but really the inside of the pattern should be longer than the outside. It has to reach further forward to hold the big toe and reach behind the joint to grip the foot. The little toe is not as far forward so that means you can slope the front of the pattern. There is no rule that says you can't make it symmetrical though. The other straps will hold the foot.

When designing it is up to the individual what you do with the straps. I would think that in this case the straps on the inside could be a little wider than those on the outside if you make the design asymmetrical.

For an earlier question on lining, I reckon this sandal is made of unlined veg tanned leather or a veg retan or some sort of mixture of tans. Stretching is not going to be much of a problem with this sort of sandal as the rest of the straps also hold the foot back. Especially the one holding the top of the foot.

Also this sandal has a layer of foam glued to an insole and then covered with a thin leather layer and stitched through. You can just wrap the leather underneath and avoid the stitching if you go for this method. Cut the foam back about 5mm/3/16" from the edge or it will try to roll over the edge when you are trying to cover it.

Tim

[luckyduck]

Hey Wende,

I do not have a good picture of it, but my flip-flop style sandals are not symmetrical. They are close enough to be confusing, so I have to label them.

Maybe build a trial pair with both sides even because that would be the easiest way and see how they look.

The try a pair and see how they look method is a bit of effort, but I haven't found another way to be able to really see how they are going to turn out in looks and feel.

Good Luck.

Paul