Pattern making

[tmattimore]

What has worked for me is using franks method(Patrick book)I find B-X divide in thirds for V. Set the form on the fold of piece of pattern paper from A-B. I put a 3 oz shoe tack (I do this on a cutting board) at V and trace the vamp from A to past X. I then rotate the form until B-I is on the edge of the paper fold and trace the rest of the shoe.
Two things to keep in mind. Depending on the angle of the last cone the point v you rotate on may rise closer to b On some lasts with a high cone and a high heel ( 1 inch+) I have rotated on B.
The second point is I have found that this tends to elongate the top line and you need to shorten it at the heel curve.

Also I find that adding the seam allowance after springing helps. This has worked for me other opinions may vary.
Tom

[artzend]

Alexander

Sorry mate, I thought you did.

Tim

[fishball]

Tom,

Thanks. I think my teacher taught me something like that, I still have to digest what you said.
If some one can so me pics, then it will be more easy to understand.

Tim,

That is alright, I bought the Koleff's book from you, IIRC. May be you just mix it up.

Alexander

[tmattimore]

I will try to take some pictures this weekend.
Tom

[fishball]

Thanks a lot, Tom!
Looking forward to your pics.

Alexander

[courtney]

I know I originally posted the Jodhpur standard that was given to me by another member of the forum but,
Now that I am really thinking of making some I see that it is pretty blurry.
Would anyone be willing to either repost or email me a clearer scan?
Now that we know its in the Patrick pattern cutting book.

Thanks if anyone can help.
Courtney

[lancepryor]

Courtney:

Done.

Lance

[courtney]

Thank you.

Courtney

[lancepryor]

For you shoemakers out there, I am curious what you have settled on for the height of your quarter pattern (relative to the feather line) for the inside, outside, and back of your shoes?

Thanks,
Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Well, I don't know that I am qualified to answer this but I am using 1/5 SLL for the medial top line height, (1/5 SLL) plus 5mm for back height, and (1/5 SLL)minus 5mm for lateral topline height.

I arrived at this after making FM adjustments for several customers.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on September 13, 2010)

[romango]

Lance,

If you refer to the top line of the quarters, I place this according to the ankle height. Many people have low ankle bones on the lateral side. There's nothing worse than having the top line cut into your ankle. Usually around 5.5cm.

The medial side usually can be higher by as much as a cm.

The back of the heel I usually put at 7cm, with some adjustment for very small or very large feet.

- Rick

[dw]

Lance,

Not fair! You haven't told us how you do it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:


I'm still trying to figure that out!

I think for some of my shoes, I've made the quarters too high, so that is why I'm revisiting the topic.

I think Terry uses 1 3/4" for outside quarter height, 2 1/4" for inside, and 2 1/2" for back height, but I may be mistaken, as I have some other notes that seemed to indicate something different.

I need to find my Sharpe, but I've misplaced that.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

See, I don't understand that. I'm not doubting Terry but unless proportions such as those are indexed to the size of the last (and foot) then they are bound to be too high on some shoes and too low on others.

I used Sharpe...and Patrick and Golding too if I recall correctly...to establish the formulae I gave above. In fact I used them nearly unaltered from Sharpe except I added one for doing the lateral topline, as well.

The real problem that no one seems to address...and I've had to fudge together a work-around for...is Standard Last Length. Frank gives a small table in the latest pattern book but it's UK sizes. It's hard enough to convert to US sizes but it really gets complicated if the lasts you're using are not sized to a (universally agreed upon) US Standard. Or if you're using an extended toe last.

Without a reliable SLL all the rest begins to fall apart.

I suppose if you're trained to make patterns directly off the last, it would be a lot easier. But I'm groping my way in the dark on that score and need something like Frank's pattern book...at least for the time being.

Are you gonna be at Delavan?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

I agree with your reasoning and logic. On the other hand, if a single size is 1/3 inch, and the formula for the quarters and back is essentially 1/5 of the last length [with a standard variance therefrom], then we're talking about a change of only 1/15 inch per size, or less than 2 mm per size. Terry may increase these measures by 1/8" for every 2 sizes, though I'm not sure about that.

Terry also does all of his work directly off the last with a paper forme, and so I'm sure he also eyeballs his marks to make sure they look good to him. For example, for someone with a very padded outside heel, perhaps he would add a bit to the outside quarter to bring up the quarter a bit on the last, since the last would have a longer circumference than someone with a bony/non-fleshy heel. A standardized approach wouldn't do this, since the SLL wouldn't change between these 2 types of feet.

In terms of 'SLL', I would think perhaps you could take the foot length and add 2 sizes (2/3 inch), since I believe the standard last would be 2 sizes over the foot length. Alternatively, I think if you add a 1/2 size to the UK size you will arrive at pretty close to the US size, ie. a UK 8E is about a US 8.5D. Technically, this might be off by say 1/6th of a size (perhaps a UK 8E would equate to a US '8 1/3D'), but any resulting error in quarter/back height would be trivial in terms of quarter height -- less than 1mm by my estimation. At the end of the day, these are aesthetic judgments, so there is no absolutely right or wrong answer. That is part of what motivated my initial inquiry -- i.e. curiosity about what others have found to work best.

Yes, I plan to be in Delavan; haven't booked things yet, but will do so soon. When do you plan to arrive and depart? I might go a few hours earlier if you'll be around on Friday afternoon, and we could arrange a rendezvous.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Yes, I see your point regarding the minimal differences. My next question is "is it easier to have a formula you can rely upon, or a set of arbitrary(?) measurements that you fudge with every shoe?" [By arbitrary I just mean not indexed to size but based entirely on observation--something like my "passline."]

I suspect that when you get good at this, some fudging goes on, or ought to, no matter how you approach it.

On the other hand, from talking to lastmakers, I have come away convinced that SLL is not really a standard last length even in a particular size. I've been told that an 8E is necessarily longer than an 8A.

And to make matters worse, especially in American lastmaking, lasts don't grade geometrically--there is a greater difference in those two full sizes for small lasts than for large lasts. We talk about 1/3 of an inch or "one barleycorn" but that's mostly just a rough approximation of the reality. The difference between the length of a size 11 and a size 12 will be closer to 3/8in., scaling down through the range such that the difference between a size 5 and a size 6 will be less than 1/3in..

We intend to be in Delevan Friday afternoon through Monday morning. Because of the dog, we are staying at the Super 8(?) rather than the Comfort Suites. But I suspect registration will be at the Suites and we'll show up there shortly after we get in.

Looking forward to it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[producthaus]

I am following the mean forme construction via taped last from Pattern Cutting. The picture below shows that SLL for Vamp Point (Counter Point is OK i think) is quite a bit off, when doing the first measure before removing the tape. Vamp point comes to my fingernail, which is well forward of the cone.

I then checked the VP, CP and Back Height measurements for a Derby pattern (adjusted for a size 10 English, since the book gives measurements for a size 8) and things line up proportionally.

Mean Forme:
- English 10 (USA 10.5) is 296.3mm
- VP = 3/4 of SLL = 222.2mm (way too far forward in picture)
- CP = 1/5 of SLL = 59.3mm (actually OK, when you add 10mm more for final Back Height)

Derby
VP = 206mm (size 8 = 195mm*1.06 to get size 10) as stated in the book. I didn't get a pic of this measure, but it's right at the front of the cone where it should be if following the books rules.

I noticed that Tim's book states VP for the mean forme as 70%, which would be 207mm, which seems like a more accurate visual proportion of Vamp Point being at the front end of the cone.

Is there an error I made somewhere? Style, and thus, guidelines, changing over time? Non-standardized USA lasts (I am using Jones & Vining), as mentioned in a post above?

11628.jpg

(Message edited by producthaus on September 29, 2010)

[producthaus]

Pattern Cutting doesn't mention to what a Balmoral vamp line is referenced to when constructing. Is it parallel to the floor? If drawn straight on the flat pattern will it deform when lasted - if so, are there any tricks for ensuring s straight line?

[producthaus]

I wanted to post this here instead of de-railing lance's thread in lasting...

I don't have access to a zig-zag machine to sew up medial and lateral patterns for draping. What are some other elegant solutions? Would adding a seam allowance and sewing a chain stitch affect the draping?

I was talking to Janne about a particular stitch that, when sewing two pieces together grain-to-grain, looks like this on the inside when flattened "| | | | | | |". Janne instructed to make one stitch, then remove the leather and maker another stitch; rinse and repeat. Does anyone have a picture of this, as I am just not following.

[dw]

Nick,

While you don't really need one, you can sew up medial and lateral patterns using a "patcher." Most of them come with a device or you can rig one to do a "jump stitch." You simply put the pieces grainside to grainside aligning the edges and "jumpstitch" over the edges.

When flattened, the drape will have "X X X X's" on one side and "| | | |'s" on the other.

Lots of good applications for this technique.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 10, 2010)

[producthaus]

DWFII,

This is a separate machine, or something I can do with my post-bed machine?

Like I said, I am blanking on this technique / failing with tests, a picture would be great.

Thanks for the quick response.

[lancepryor]

Nick:

I just add a seam allowance and sew the two pieces along the seams (vamp and back) with my post machine. Assuming the seam is sewn accurately, it should still give you a good feel for your draft, although I do this to make fitters, rather than to test my draft.

Lance

[artzend]

Nick

Just looking at you question about VP above, you should be looking at making US sizes 1 size up from UK sizes, not .5 of a size, that may help you.

For the stitching question, I have done a sort of zig zag by loosening the top tension a lot, not adding a stitching allowance, and then close seaming close to the edge. When finished, pull the two pieces apart lightly and then lay them flat with the two edges butted together. It's not very strong though.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[janne_melkersson]

Nick,
you can do this with the postmachine or a flatbed. One stitch through the tops, lift the presser foot remove the tops and next stitch down in the shuttle lift the presser foot put back the tops and so on.

It is not as complicated as it may look but it takes some time though. But I can assure you it is fast compare to doing it by hand. I am using this seam on shoes and boots where a backstrap will be sewed on because it creates a flat seam if done right.


Janne

[noonan]

If you got a stapler with a long throat, you can staple the thing together. If you close seam like Lance does, be sure to rub the seam out nice and flat. Don't use leather if you can help it. Use something like canvas, with no stretch at all.
We even put fit notches into the pattern, so's the stitcher makes an excellent butt seam. Like all the pattern work we do, we hand the project off, and hopefully don't hear another thing until the finished model is ready to last. Then I just go watch the shoe get lasted. The allowances better be right where I layed them out to be. So if you see you have too much material over the toe, or it's hitting hard at the back, or whatever, you just know where you are in reference to the draft. And without an excellent draft, and how your pattern is built aroud that base,there is no way to know if you are right on the money. I understand real well the difference between custom made, and engineering shoes for the masses...I got away with murder when I did it all myself. But last draft is one shortcut I can not take, and wouldn't know how to make a shoe without one. Get a zig zag machine...endless good uses. Lance, you shoulda grabbed mine while I was giving stuff away.
Have Fun,
Tim