Pattern making

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dw
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Re: Pattern making

#1051 Post by dw »

All,

Some thoughts...some may be reasonable, some may not:

I am not sure where the distortion is in a forme. If we use paper to make our formes, it seems that the most distortion is where the slots are cut. Indeed visualizing the paper being applied, I see the side of the last being nearly flat and the paper conforming to what discrepancies are evident fairly easily. The real problems begin when we try to deviate from that (relatively) flat surface and bend the paper over the dorsal surface of the last; or under the arch, or around the heel.

So...that leads me to wonder if springing the formes in an area that seems to not have much distortion is really addressing the problems of distortion.

When I look at the sprung formes posted above, I see the vamp being cocked upward and an bit of extra substance being incorporated into the distance from the heel seat to the toe. The first...the springing of the vamp...might make it easier to last the forepart but I'm not sure what the second does.

If a pattern (or a drape) lies on the last such that the featherlines are already congruent..."dead on"...then when the shoe is lasted it would seem to me that components that are already in their proper place and alignment, will be pulled askew and out of place.

My biggest reservation is that when patterns are drawn on the last the very distortions that we talk about will affect the symmetry of the finished shoe.

I'm still fiddling with the Adelaide patterns and if I draw them on the last, the facings, when cut off, will have one shape...and generally a mirror image of each other...but the quarters will have another shape that doesn't correspond to the facings. This makes me hesitant because if the quarter pieces are cut to the patterns and the facings are cut to the patterns, the quarters will have to be stretched to fit the facings, which, in turn, will distort the facings....OR the facings will have to be compressed.

Either way, symmetry is destroyed.

I understand that a flat form doesn't reflect that contours of the last. But it seems to me that flat components "sprung" to emulate some minimal aspect of those contours doesn't really address the issue especially when you factor in the lasting process. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any answers. I'm "questing" for one.

Maybe this whole issue would be a good subject for presentation at AGM?

Someone?

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Re: Pattern making

#1052 Post by noonan »

Hi DW,
Your'e worries are over if you lay out a "shell" to create patterns, with all the components built into the shell. Then you "split parts" from the shell. The parts will always fit together however you as the pattern maker decide, whatever the shoe you build, with close seams, lap seams, folded edges,lasting allowances..etc...If split from the shell, which derived from your draft, your base.
Lines distort a little when you lay out a 2D pattern to be fitted over a 3D last. First lesson ever is that to make a shoe with a straight tip, you make the line slightly curved, from your vamp score line. These things just started making sense to me after about 10 years of doing it day in and day out. Then it starts to just come naturally.
See Ya,
Tim
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Re: Pattern making

#1053 Post by dw »

Tim,

Thanks for the reassurance but as I mentioned...it hasn't worked for me.

If you make a tape shell and design your components on it then cut those pieces out, flattening them so that you can cut leather from them distorts them such that pieces no longer line up or fit together easily. By easily, I mean without stretching or compressing of some seamlines or parts.

It's not clear to me how to go about compensating for such distortion. The example on the oxford is clear enough but it's not immediately clear that it will apply to all styles. Nor is it clear that stretching a seam line to make it fit isn't just adding more distortion.

I guess I need to see it done.

Will you be coming to AGM this year?

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Re: Pattern making

#1054 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

To my way of thinking, we want to get the upper to be 'undistorted' when it is on the last/lasted. If the two edges don't marry up perfectly when they are 2D/flattened, I think that is because they are distorted by the flattening. If we can manipulate the leather so that, when closed, it is consistent with the sprung lines, I believe that the upper will be 'undistorted' when it is put back into 3D by the lasting process. That seems desirable to me.

So, if I were doing the 'shell' cutting, I would add a consistent stitching margin to the underlying piece of leather and sew to the where the edge of the flattened pattern piece was before the margin was added. Any manipulation you have to do when sewing is, IMO, because the pattern is still basically 2D, not 3D. If somehow you could lay the unsewn pieces on the last before sewing, then sew them together while they were on the last, wouldn't the pieces fit back together pretty much perfectly?

When Terry springs his pattern on the last, he is using the line that you will see 'as is,' and springing the underlying piece. This minimizes the distortion of the line when the upper is lasted. So, for example, if you were to spring the adelaide shield on the last, you would cut the vamp piece first (since it is the overlapping piece whose edge you see in the finished upper), then spring the facing piece. Assuming the vamp piece is symmetrical when the pattern is cut, I would think this would yield a pretty symmetrical finished product. However, YMMV.

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Re: Pattern making

#1055 Post by dw »

Lance,

This sure seems like a good subject for an AGM presentation. Will you be there this year?

I was think about all this last night and it seems to me that I recall someone--Thornton perhaps, suggesting that the components be placed on the last as they were being assembled. In other words...if I understood correctly...the patterns pieces would be outlined on the last and as the quarters were finished it would be attached to the last such that it was in the same place as the design line indicate. Then the vamp would be cemented/glued to the quarters...in its original position...and the quarters and vamps gently removed from the last intact. Then they would be closed.

Might be worth a trial run anyway.

I guess I just don't have the confidence to design off the last and trust the resulting cut-a-ways. So far, none of them have matched up...but more importantly, as I indicated, some parts would need to be compressed or stretched to match up with other parts. That's almost the definition of distortion in my book...and if I did stretch or compress, I would be the one adding the distortion.

Hey, I'm still working on it....


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Re: Pattern making

#1056 Post by noonan »

Gents...
I think if you saw a set of patterns, a simple one, like a plain Oxford, with all the parts of the shoe, and the shell from which each part was "split"...then all would be clear as day how simple it really is.
Lance...while I was cleaning out my office, I know I pulled a couple pattern bags out of my trash and gave them to you to look over. Inside these bags, (actually these are 10" x 13" envelopes) just they've always been called "bags" were each part ie; toe cap, Qtr, Foxing, tong, counter..etc...and even though I was working from these patterns myself, I still marked them up with my instructions, be it folded edge, eyelet size, stitch and turn, whatever. Well also inside the bag is the shell of that shoe. This shell has everything representing the shoe to be made. It's a blueprint really. You see the draft, the seam allowances, where the markers go, how much lasting allowance I gave it, score lines for uppers and linings. Everything. So when I hand off this job, there better not be anything missing. And when my shoe comes back from sample room, any problems that might arise, can then be fixed on a new shell, made form the first shell. Of course I got away with murder in my own shop. I was doing all the hand cutting, sciving, stitching, lasting blah blah blah. I did take shortcuts, lots of em. But I always cut all my components out before I started. Sometimes I'd have 5 or 6 jobs cut, in shoe boxes, waiting to get stitched. This saves a lot of time, and guess work. All engineered from the beginning. Sounds like a lot of work,and it is, but it's the right way to do it. Especially if your'e in a production environment. If one fit notch is missing, a job gets graded, and dies get ordered, you are in deep trouble man!!
See Ya,
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Re: Pattern making

#1057 Post by lancepryor »

Once more into the breach....

Okay, so I did basically like DW suggested -- I made a quarter and a vamp piece in a fairly firm 4 oz. leather from my forme, with the quarter a bit long and including a 'sewing margin'. I marked on the quarter where the vamp seam would be when the two pattern pieces are laid flat -- this line is shown on the quarter piece in black.

Here is the quarter piece of leather under the original quarter pattern and the vamp pattern adjacent. This shows how the two lines are entirely parallel, as they should be since they were cut from a single forme which was flat on the cutting surface when the vamp/quarter line was drawn and cut.
11326.jpg


Then, I traced a line with a black pen where the vamp met up with the quarter when the two pieces were laid flat.
11327.jpg


Then, I placed the quarter in its appropriate location on the last and 'lasted' it into position, then did the same with the vamp piece. Here is the pattern 'lasted.' I traced in red the location of the vamp on the quarter with the pattern lasted. The leather was pretty tight to the wood.
11328.jpg
11329.jpg
11330.jpg


Then, I took the pieces off the last, and compared the quarter piece to the 'sprung' quarter paper pattern I did a few days back. A pretty darn close match, even though the paper effort was pretty 'quick and dirty.' (The original vamp/quarter line is shown on the paper pattern in black; the cut edge is the 'sprung' pattern's edge.)
11331.jpg


To me, this shows the value of springing the pattern, whether that is done by cutting directly on the last then flattening, or by springing the two paper pattern pieces on the last after cutting the desired shape of the top piece.

Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on June 09, 2010)
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Re: Pattern making

#1058 Post by dw »

Lance,

You've really gone the extra mile! I, for one, appreciate it immensely. Thank you.

I have to give this a try. I don't know how it will work with the Adelaide pattern or whether it can be applied as the shoe is actually being assembled but you have convinced me.

Thank you again for the time and energy.

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Re: Pattern making

#1059 Post by chuck_deats »

Excellent demonstration. I know nothing of pattern making, but doesn't this address the same issue as over crimping in boot making, i.e. Cruel crimping boards,etc. The leather fits snuggly down on the cone of the last and pulling the toe down puts tension along the top of the vamp as opposed to compression if the toe is low. Compression would tend to cause wrinkles.
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Re: Pattern making

#1060 Post by dw »

All,

Slept on this overnight...and woke up with this question:

Why not adjust the vamp line rather than the quarter line?

which component has more intrinsic distortion?

Chuck,

I do see that to some extent and I wonder if...as we (I) do when making a boot...lasting "seats up" doesn't mitigate some of that?

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Re: Pattern making

#1061 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

Because you draw the vamp line as you want it to look on the shoe. If you adjust it, it no longer looks the same way. Plus, if the springing affects the inside and outside quarters differently, then adjusting the vamp would render the inside and outside asymmetric in appearance, since the vamp line would be different. (To reiterate a previous point, on a derby the vamp is adjusted/sprung, since the quarter line is the edge that you see.) Finally, I'm not entirely sure how you would adjust the vamp line to achieve the same effect? If you simply cut it longer toward the heel and sewed to the original line, I don't think it would actually put any spring in the upper(?).

Of course, you still could adjust the vamp instead, if that is your preference.

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Re: Pattern making

#1062 Post by romango »

I have a customer that is interested in having me make a shoe of their own design. Well, not really their own design - more a derivative design. It is basically a saddle shoe as shown:
11344.jpg


I haven't made a saddle shoe but I think I can figure that part out. I'm wondering about this seam up the middle. It doesn't seem to be a real seam but rather that the leather has been scored from above then pulled together to give this effect.
11345.jpg


Can anyone tell me about how this is done?
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Re: Pattern making

#1063 Post by dw »

Rick,

I can see why you think it is only scored from above...and it may be some variation of that...I see an uncut area right where the toe seam meets the vamp shield. That's tricky.

But I think (and I could be wrong) that the leather is cut and given a 45° bevel on the fleshside of each edge. Then a grain-side piercing stitch is made to come out just edge-wise of the bevel and entering edge-wise of the bevel on the other piece.

Tightening the stitch draws the bevel together. Flattening the two pieces along the seam makes the ridged seam. Don't get too far away from full substance with your stitches.

I'll be very interested in other approaches to this technique.

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Re: Pattern making

#1064 Post by courtney »

Has anyone made the jockey or coachmans boots from Golding volume 1 pg. 108?

I started laying it out and then it gets to, " at the front of the calf E1 make a 1/4" to the left"

but He doe say how far to draw the line, I am sure your supposed to measure your self or customer but you must have to add some extra, cuz you dont want it skin tight.

anybody have any input on this?

I am trying to make engineer boots w/ a side zipper, Tom Mattimore has givin me alot of help but I would like to be able to draft the patterns so I understand what i'm doing and how to adjust it.

Courtney
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Re: Pattern making

#1065 Post by mack »

11362.jpg
11363.jpg
11364.jpg

Rick,
I get to see lots of hand sewn seams so I may be able to help.
I think the shoe you featured has the seam done in the following way.
You lightly score the surface of the leather with a sharp knife.Your only looking to just cut the surface and if your too heavy handed it will weaken the seam.
You can pre mark your stitches or stitch free hand and depending on how you place your awl the seam will lay in different ways.The desired look is for the cut to be on top of the seam or slightly to the inside.Picture 1 shows this method on a scrap piece of leather.
I suggest you close the apron seam first and then cut and close the toe seam, this is how you get the uncut part that DW mentioned.
Picture 2 shows the same kind of seam but without the cut and picture 3 shows the seam DW talked about .This uses seperate pieces of leather and is better done with heavier leather and is much harder to do.
Hope this sheds some light on your approach to this job.
Mack.
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Re: Pattern making

#1066 Post by romango »

Jim & DW,

Thanks. That's very helpful. I guess it is easy enough for me to try on some scraps too.

I'll keep you posted on my results.

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Re: Pattern making

#1067 Post by dw »

Rick,

I may be wrong...it's hard to tell with the photo, but I suspect Mack's last photo is of a technique that Lance used on his split-toes (in the Gallery) some time ago. The "apron" (?) is pierced from the grainside as a tunnel stitch which emerges on the straight-cut edge of the piece. The awl then pierces the fleshside of the quarter and emerges on the grainside.

A little different than what I was describing...and much more difficult and elegant.

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Re: Pattern making

#1068 Post by mack »

DW and Rick,
Yes the last photo is the same technique as DW describes.You see it on a lot of Edward Green and G&G shoes, they call it 'skin stitching'.
If done well it does look very good.The type of leather you choose will help your result.With this stitch the toe is usually seamed blind.
My first picture shows a similar seam to your original shoe, it will stand out more if done on heavier leather than I used.
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Re: Pattern making

#1069 Post by romango »

DW or Jim,

Something like this?
11371.jpg
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Re: Pattern making

#1070 Post by dw »

More like this, I suspect..
11373.png


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Re: Pattern making

#1071 Post by mack »

Rick,
DW's diagram is a good explanation of how it is done.Its pretty tricky to do well, but have a go
nothing ventured as they say.The stiffer hog bristles may make it easier.
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Re: Pattern making

#1072 Post by fishball »

Could anyone recommend a pattern making book other than Frank and Koleff books?

My teacher taught me how to make a pattern for "wholecut" using the forme, but I forgot how to do it. Any help? I just remember need to hold a point, then rotate the forme, then hold another point, and rotate the forme again till the vamp to be straight.
Sorry for my poor english. I really don't know how to say it better in english, just try my best to express myself.

Alexander

(Message edited by fishball on September 01, 2010)
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Re: Pattern making

#1073 Post by dw »

Alex,

I would like to see a book that included a pattern for whole cuts. I don't think it exists. I am somewhat familiar with most of the literature out there but I have never run across a pattern book that covered whole cuts, or adelaides or chelseas or split toes, etc....

A lot of us on this side of the pond use a crimping board to shape the vamps (quarters, etc.) for whole cuts. It just seems a lot more predictable and over-all easy.

You can easily derive a crimp board from the mean forme. I might spring the toe a little on the board, however, simply because the leather will relax a little once it comes off the board.


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Re: Pattern making

#1074 Post by artzend »

Alexander

If you have a look at the springing in my book, it uses the method that you have described. You will need to do pretty much the same as the example I used for the front of the boot.

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Re: Pattern making

#1075 Post by fishball »

Thanks DW & Tim.

Sorry, Tim, I don't have your book.

Alexander
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