DW:
One final thought/reiteration of my point of view on this.
What we are doing is taking a forme off the last, flattening it, drawing a pattern based on the forme, cutting the pattern, and transferring that pattern to flat leather, which is then cut, sewn, and lasted. As Frank once wrote, we are going from 3D to 2D to 3D. The first transformation, going from 3D to 2D, creates (I think we can all agree) some distortion. Likewise, transforming a (different) material -- the leather -- from 2D back to 3D also involves some distortion.
When one flattens the 'shell', the resultant forme is imperfect (distorted), and thus will need some manipulation of the pattern is to get closer to a 'perfect' pattern. When you use a piece of canvas laid, pretty much undistorted, onto a last and use this shell to make a forme, you must be introducing some distortion when the shell is flattened. It doesn't surprise me that you can then lay this forme back on the last and get it to lay flat, because the forme can 'undistort' and go back to its original shape -the rubber-cement backed canvas material has 'memory', or a desire to return to its undistored shape. To a lesser degree, I can get pretty darn close to the original fit with a taped forme, before I back it with paper. Backing it with paper makes it very difficult for the forme to 'undistort,' since the undistorted paper backing is difficult to distort.
However, note that when we are transferring a pattern to a piece of leather, the leather is undistorted, so then lasting the leather will require distortion of the leather (analogous to the forme 'undistorting').
Thus, the whole discussion seems to revolve around: what is the best way to reduce/minimize the distortion necessary in the 2D to 3D transformation (lasting)? I don't know the answer to this question. What I do know is that simply drawing the pattern onto the (flat) forme and cutting the pieces will (by definition) create an upper that must be distorted in lasting. Will the springing process improve the upper? I don't know, but as I wrote earlier, I don't think it makes much sense to worry too much about 'distorting' or modifying the pattern, because we know that failing to do so will generate an inherently flawed pattern. Hence, I think that experimentation in this process makes sense, since we are working with inherently imperfect patterns.
I hope others will experiment and report their own conclusions as to what works best.
Lance
Pattern making
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lancepryor
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lancepryor
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Re: Pattern making
DW:
A couple of pics of Tim's method. You put the last against the end of the table, with the cone and toe against the edge, and the pencil on the table top. Once the last is positioned with center point of the cone and the toe at the right height on the table, you can simply slide the pencil along the table and mark on the last. Hope these pics make sense.
A couple of pics of Tim's method. You put the last against the end of the table, with the cone and toe against the edge, and the pencil on the table top. Once the last is positioned with center point of the cone and the toe at the right height on the table, you can simply slide the pencil along the table and mark on the last. Hope these pics make sense.
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jon_g
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Re: Pattern making
DW, you asked about my pattern making and whether or not I worked off the taped last.
I am using two different techniques these days; for our theatrical work I am using the method that Jan-Erik outlined a few months ago, using leather. This produces a quick and precise outside form, from there I use a drafting method to draw the details.
For my handsewn work I am working off the taped last, using a method I learned from Marcell. This involves drawing a very accurate outline of the upper on the tape, then applying the inside and outside forms to pattern paper without slicing it. This must be done in a particular order so that certain areas are not distorted and the excesses are confined to areas that are easy to account for. This works well for me.
Frank Jones' book also has a precise method for creating forms that when tested, drape the last very well, they almost last themselves.
I am using two different techniques these days; for our theatrical work I am using the method that Jan-Erik outlined a few months ago, using leather. This produces a quick and precise outside form, from there I use a drafting method to draw the details.
For my handsewn work I am working off the taped last, using a method I learned from Marcell. This involves drawing a very accurate outline of the upper on the tape, then applying the inside and outside forms to pattern paper without slicing it. This must be done in a particular order so that certain areas are not distorted and the excesses are confined to areas that are easy to account for. This works well for me.
Frank Jones' book also has a precise method for creating forms that when tested, drape the last very well, they almost last themselves.
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paul
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Re: Pattern making
Isn't it wonderful to learn something new everyday?
Lance, and you other guys, you're really doing a fantastic job of teaching and sharing some real fundamental stuff. And in a very clear way, too.
This has been one of the discouraging parts for me when I've made the few pairs of shoes I have. This almost makes me want to cut into another pair.
Thank you very much.
Frank, I've just got to get your new book!
Lance, and you other guys, you're really doing a fantastic job of teaching and sharing some real fundamental stuff. And in a very clear way, too.
This has been one of the discouraging parts for me when I've made the few pairs of shoes I have. This almost makes me want to cut into another pair.
Thank you very much.
Frank, I've just got to get your new book!
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Lance,
I hope that wasn't really a final thought...I am enjoying the discussion and it is leading me to think about things in new ways.
I followed your remarks remarkably well...maybe I'm not so thick as all that...but it prompts a question or two:
Regardless of any and all measures to "undistort" the 2D patterns, when we last are we not, by necessity, distorting the patterns...distorting the leather?
If we start with a 2D forme and transition to a 3D forme and then back again to 2D ...all in preparation to end up as a 3D forme...and then we "spring" the 2D forme in a somewhat random (less than empirically controlled, at any rate) attempt to ameliorate some (not all) of that distortion, might we not introduce yet more distortion? Distortion that might interfere with the distortional forces that we bring to bear when lasting?
Jeez, that sounds ponderous, but I guess what I'm saying is that if the patterns are made carefully, lasting itself is the process that reconverts the 2D to the 3D, isn't it? Why isn't that good enough?
And that sort of raises the question of designing directly on the last as well.
We look at the last or the shoe...or any object...and unconsciously impose a symmetry upon the form we are seeing. We "see" a centerline whether we consciously want to or not. It seems to me that if critical points...visual references such as backseams, toe caps, etc....are aligned and in place, and there is sufficient substance all around to draft, then any set of patterns, sprung or not, will distort just about equally as the shoe is stretched/pulled over the last. The problem I keep running up against...as in the case of the Adelaide...is that when designing off the last, you can be as careful as you want to be--measuring, using templates, checking and rechecking--and when you cut the patterns off the last (even tape patterns) components such as the Adelaide "shield" will not be symmetrical. If you don't start with symmetry, it seems doubtful that you can expect symmetry as the final result especially when applied to a visual centerline.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I hope that wasn't really a final thought...I am enjoying the discussion and it is leading me to think about things in new ways.
I followed your remarks remarkably well...maybe I'm not so thick as all that...but it prompts a question or two:
Regardless of any and all measures to "undistort" the 2D patterns, when we last are we not, by necessity, distorting the patterns...distorting the leather?
If we start with a 2D forme and transition to a 3D forme and then back again to 2D ...all in preparation to end up as a 3D forme...and then we "spring" the 2D forme in a somewhat random (less than empirically controlled, at any rate) attempt to ameliorate some (not all) of that distortion, might we not introduce yet more distortion? Distortion that might interfere with the distortional forces that we bring to bear when lasting?
Jeez, that sounds ponderous, but I guess what I'm saying is that if the patterns are made carefully, lasting itself is the process that reconverts the 2D to the 3D, isn't it? Why isn't that good enough?
And that sort of raises the question of designing directly on the last as well.
We look at the last or the shoe...or any object...and unconsciously impose a symmetry upon the form we are seeing. We "see" a centerline whether we consciously want to or not. It seems to me that if critical points...visual references such as backseams, toe caps, etc....are aligned and in place, and there is sufficient substance all around to draft, then any set of patterns, sprung or not, will distort just about equally as the shoe is stretched/pulled over the last. The problem I keep running up against...as in the case of the Adelaide...is that when designing off the last, you can be as careful as you want to be--measuring, using templates, checking and rechecking--and when you cut the patterns off the last (even tape patterns) components such as the Adelaide "shield" will not be symmetrical. If you don't start with symmetry, it seems doubtful that you can expect symmetry as the final result especially when applied to a visual centerline.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Lance, Tim,
Doh!!
I don't know why I didn't see that. Very clear, very neat!!
Thanks
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Doh!!
I don't know why I didn't see that. Very clear, very neat!! Thanks
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Jon,
I'd like to see that method of working off the last. I have tried and tried to make it work for me but there's just some piece(s) of the puzzle that I'm missing. presumably. Because the patterns I get off the last, despite my best efforts to be accurate--using measurements and templates, etc.-- don't feel right.
Frank's books...both of them...illustrate several ways to create formes but patterns are all done with a flat layout (not on the last). Can you be more specific which method you were referring to?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I'd like to see that method of working off the last. I have tried and tried to make it work for me but there's just some piece(s) of the puzzle that I'm missing. presumably. Because the patterns I get off the last, despite my best efforts to be accurate--using measurements and templates, etc.-- don't feel right.
Frank's books...both of them...illustrate several ways to create formes but patterns are all done with a flat layout (not on the last). Can you be more specific which method you were referring to?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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lancepryor
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Re: Pattern making
DW:
I think that the lasting process (i.e. 2D to 3D) must involve some distortion -- that is unavoidable. However, just because something is unavoidable does not make it desirable. All things being equal, I'd love to be able to make a pattern that requires zero distortion when going from 2D to 3D, but that isn't possible.
In my evaluation of things, springing the pattern (however it is done, be it on the last or simply doing it [correctly] based on the flattened forme) may reduce the amount of distortion necessary in the 2D to 3D process. However, I grant you that springing the pattern could make it even more imperfect, rather than less. Nevertheless, it just makes sense, to me, that doing it on the last will result in a pattern that more accurately mirrors the way it will be when it is lasted, which sounds desirable to me.
To your point about symmetry, I think this captures what I hope to do by springing the pattern on the last. Think about it this way -- if we cut the vamp pattern and test it on the last, we can look at it and see if we like the way it looks on the last. Once we have the vamp pattern the way we want it (when it is put on the last), then we would want to minimize the distortion of that piece on the finished shoe. Lets face it, the vamp quarter seam is one of the major visual landmarks we see when we look at the shoe. If the vamp/quarter seam will be stressed in the lasting process, then won't this seam run the risk of being distorted? I think when you spring the pattern on the last, you are creating a seam which will not face as much stress from lasting, and thus is more likely to look on the finished shoe like it looked when you tested the pattern. Plus, given that the adjusted pattern seems to fit the last better, then lasting will be easier and require less distortion of the leather.
Hope that makes sense.
By the way, I think my comment that started this whole discussion was in error. That is to say, if you draw the pattern on the last, cut it off, then flatten the pieces, then you don't need to spring the subsequent pattern. What you'll find (at least in my experience) is that the vamp line and the cut at the front of the quarter piece aren't a perfect fit when flat (!). In essence, cutting then flattening accomplishes the same thing as what I demonstrated in my pics posted yesterday. Perhaps, to quote that great critic Emily Latella, I should just say "Oh, that's very different ...... Never mind."
Lance
I think that the lasting process (i.e. 2D to 3D) must involve some distortion -- that is unavoidable. However, just because something is unavoidable does not make it desirable. All things being equal, I'd love to be able to make a pattern that requires zero distortion when going from 2D to 3D, but that isn't possible.
In my evaluation of things, springing the pattern (however it is done, be it on the last or simply doing it [correctly] based on the flattened forme) may reduce the amount of distortion necessary in the 2D to 3D process. However, I grant you that springing the pattern could make it even more imperfect, rather than less. Nevertheless, it just makes sense, to me, that doing it on the last will result in a pattern that more accurately mirrors the way it will be when it is lasted, which sounds desirable to me.
To your point about symmetry, I think this captures what I hope to do by springing the pattern on the last. Think about it this way -- if we cut the vamp pattern and test it on the last, we can look at it and see if we like the way it looks on the last. Once we have the vamp pattern the way we want it (when it is put on the last), then we would want to minimize the distortion of that piece on the finished shoe. Lets face it, the vamp quarter seam is one of the major visual landmarks we see when we look at the shoe. If the vamp/quarter seam will be stressed in the lasting process, then won't this seam run the risk of being distorted? I think when you spring the pattern on the last, you are creating a seam which will not face as much stress from lasting, and thus is more likely to look on the finished shoe like it looked when you tested the pattern. Plus, given that the adjusted pattern seems to fit the last better, then lasting will be easier and require less distortion of the leather.
Hope that makes sense.
By the way, I think my comment that started this whole discussion was in error. That is to say, if you draw the pattern on the last, cut it off, then flatten the pieces, then you don't need to spring the subsequent pattern. What you'll find (at least in my experience) is that the vamp line and the cut at the front of the quarter piece aren't a perfect fit when flat (!). In essence, cutting then flattening accomplishes the same thing as what I demonstrated in my pics posted yesterday. Perhaps, to quote that great critic Emily Latella, I should just say "Oh, that's very different ...... Never mind."
Lance
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frank_jones
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Re: Pattern making
Wow, Lance what a response. You really hit the spot with your springing post. As my name has been mentioned several times perhaps I should try to make a few useful (I hope) comments.
Springing is one of those “dark” arts in shoemaking. Basics first. In my opinion there are three reasons for springing.
1) To modify a pattern in a way that improves the interlocking of the sectional patterns when cutting out the upper material. This is very important in factory production but almost irrelevant for hand made footwear.
2) To bring down relatively small sections which would otherwise be above the crease line of a standard (also called a shell) without losing the length of certain critical lines on the subsequent patterns.
3) To modify curves of certain upper parts so that when they are sewn onto the adjacent part, the upper material has to be pulled in or pushed out during closing. Simply by doing this, gives the upper some degree of 3D shaping. This makes the lasting of the upper easier and produces less stress in the upper in the completed footwear.
I used these three categories in a posting in this thread, dated 2nd June last year and went on to deal with item two in a lot more detail using drawings.
Item one is basically a factory technique to enable uppers to be cut more economically, so no further comment.
So now I will try to produce some drawings to give an example of the item three reason for springing. Maybe by tomorrow morning and hopefully using the seam between the vamp and quarter of an Oxford shoe.
Watch this space.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com
Springing is one of those “dark” arts in shoemaking. Basics first. In my opinion there are three reasons for springing.
1) To modify a pattern in a way that improves the interlocking of the sectional patterns when cutting out the upper material. This is very important in factory production but almost irrelevant for hand made footwear.
2) To bring down relatively small sections which would otherwise be above the crease line of a standard (also called a shell) without losing the length of certain critical lines on the subsequent patterns.
3) To modify curves of certain upper parts so that when they are sewn onto the adjacent part, the upper material has to be pulled in or pushed out during closing. Simply by doing this, gives the upper some degree of 3D shaping. This makes the lasting of the upper easier and produces less stress in the upper in the completed footwear.
I used these three categories in a posting in this thread, dated 2nd June last year and went on to deal with item two in a lot more detail using drawings.
Item one is basically a factory technique to enable uppers to be cut more economically, so no further comment.
So now I will try to produce some drawings to give an example of the item three reason for springing. Maybe by tomorrow morning and hopefully using the seam between the vamp and quarter of an Oxford shoe.
Watch this space.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com
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artzend
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Re: Pattern making
DW
Earlier you were worried about the centre line not being accurate, well when you make the mean forme, you sort all the inaccuracies out, so it isn't such a problem. You will probably not get them exactly right each time.
Tim
Earlier you were worried about the centre line not being accurate, well when you make the mean forme, you sort all the inaccuracies out, so it isn't such a problem. You will probably not get them exactly right each time.
Tim
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Tim,
I understand. The question really assumed greater significance as I struggle with trying to design off the last. There I think an accurate centerline could be an asset.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I understand. The question really assumed greater significance as I struggle with trying to design off the last. There I think an accurate centerline could be an asset.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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janne_melkersson
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Re: Pattern making
Lance, DW,
"Do you find springing the pattern on the last helps to improve the resultant pattern/upper?"
"Why is it necessary to spring the patterns? What does it accomplish?"
I am afraid I dont have the answer for your questions. During my apprenticeship we where taught that springing the pattern is about both the fit and the look. However, I have patterns with the spring and I have them without, both works!
Personally I dont think patternmaking is about a millimetre here and there and I think it is no right or wrong in this.
Lately I am more concern that the vamp point is not to far towards the toe. But that is another question!
"Do you find springing the pattern on the last helps to improve the resultant pattern/upper?"
"Why is it necessary to spring the patterns? What does it accomplish?"
I am afraid I dont have the answer for your questions. During my apprenticeship we where taught that springing the pattern is about both the fit and the look. However, I have patterns with the spring and I have them without, both works!
Personally I dont think patternmaking is about a millimetre here and there and I think it is no right or wrong in this.
Lately I am more concern that the vamp point is not to far towards the toe. But that is another question!
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Janne,
OK...here's that other question...
If I recall correctly you use the (S)tandard (L)ast (L)ength converted to stiches, measured from the (C)ounter (P)oint to the centerline on the forepart of the last, and then back up the cone one centimeter--that's your (V)amp (P)oint. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Are you wanting to move it even higher?
Personally, I think 7/10 SLL...as laid out in some patterning systems...is too far toward the toe. But sometimes I think SLL in stiches minus 1cm is too far back. I find the facings get pretty short.
Thoughts?
OK...here's that other question...
If I recall correctly you use the (S)tandard (L)ast (L)ength converted to stiches, measured from the (C)ounter (P)oint to the centerline on the forepart of the last, and then back up the cone one centimeter--that's your (V)amp (P)oint. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Are you wanting to move it even higher?
Personally, I think 7/10 SLL...as laid out in some patterning systems...is too far toward the toe. But sometimes I think SLL in stiches minus 1cm is too far back. I find the facings get pretty short.
Thoughts?
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janne_melkersson
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Re: Pattern making
DW,
I learnt the trade in a orthopeadic shop where we where taught to locate the VP at 2/3 of the last lenght. This is generally speaking a good system that works good in the orthopeadig trade. The opening of the shoe is big and it is easy for clients who don't ave normal flexibility in the ankle joint to enter the shoe.
Of course I made my non orthopeadic shoes the same way but when looking at other makers shoes I saw something is missing but I really didn't know what. Mine didn't have the "look" simple as that.
15 years ago I visited a closer in London and I showed him a pattern of mine and he told me what was "wrong", just move the VP back half an inch and you be fine he said.
Then he started to close my uppers and it was a great awakening for me. Suddenly my shoes got a new look which both I and my clients liked much better. Not only did he move the VP back but also did he spring the pattern much more then what I did before. His uppers where tough to last because they where so tight and you had to pull hard to get it right. I don't spring my patterns as much as he because I find it harder to close uppers with much spring in it. But as he said moving back the VP create a look that makes the shoe more elongated which most all find to look nicer.
When moving the VP back you are not supposed to shorten the facing, what happens is that the opening of the shoe will be shorter so this is nothing for clients without full flexibility.
Janne
I learnt the trade in a orthopeadic shop where we where taught to locate the VP at 2/3 of the last lenght. This is generally speaking a good system that works good in the orthopeadig trade. The opening of the shoe is big and it is easy for clients who don't ave normal flexibility in the ankle joint to enter the shoe.
Of course I made my non orthopeadic shoes the same way but when looking at other makers shoes I saw something is missing but I really didn't know what. Mine didn't have the "look" simple as that.
15 years ago I visited a closer in London and I showed him a pattern of mine and he told me what was "wrong", just move the VP back half an inch and you be fine he said.
Then he started to close my uppers and it was a great awakening for me. Suddenly my shoes got a new look which both I and my clients liked much better. Not only did he move the VP back but also did he spring the pattern much more then what I did before. His uppers where tough to last because they where so tight and you had to pull hard to get it right. I don't spring my patterns as much as he because I find it harder to close uppers with much spring in it. But as he said moving back the VP create a look that makes the shoe more elongated which most all find to look nicer.
When moving the VP back you are not supposed to shorten the facing, what happens is that the opening of the shoe will be shorter so this is nothing for clients without full flexibility.
Janne
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Janne,
Thinking on it, I realize that the facings won't be shorter but the top of the facings will end up higher on the cone of the last, won't they? Is that OK?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Thinking on it, I realize that the facings won't be shorter but the top of the facings will end up higher on the cone of the last, won't they? Is that OK?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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lancepryor
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Re: Pattern making
DW:
I think as long as the foot can get into the shoe, and the tongue, facings, and quarters don't cut into the foot, then higher facings are fine. As I posted previously, Terry places his VP at 4.5 inches up from the toe (for a UK size 8, I believe), and his facings go 3 inches up from there (again, size 8). That is for a standard toe that is 2 sizes over the foot length. It would be interesting to compare this to your VP as currently used.
At the end of the day, as long as the shoe fits, the rest is aesthetics.
Lance
I think as long as the foot can get into the shoe, and the tongue, facings, and quarters don't cut into the foot, then higher facings are fine. As I posted previously, Terry places his VP at 4.5 inches up from the toe (for a UK size 8, I believe), and his facings go 3 inches up from there (again, size 8). That is for a standard toe that is 2 sizes over the foot length. It would be interesting to compare this to your VP as currently used.
At the end of the day, as long as the shoe fits, the rest is aesthetics.
Lance
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Pattern making
My gents, we are nearing the flaming war of hand cut dovetails on a wood working forum.
I' throw in a thought or two.
I do mostly orthopedic work. I used the tape method.
When you need so make two different shoes/lasts look the same.
If you try any geometric work you will dye an ugly hairless person.
2-3 layers of clear packing tape, layed at angles. Hit it with a heat gun to take out major wrinkles.
Get out a Bic pen. Draw your heel centre line then eyeball the centre of the front of the last. Put a few dots along your site line from the top of the cone to the toe. Debate as much as you want depending on toe shape.
I use a flexable steel ruler to connect the last center line dots. If all your dots arn't lined up, use a straight edge and average the centre line. If It does not look right just wipe the pen marks off with a rag.
Once you have you centers marked. Just draw away.
Given a few perameters, which is in Sharp etc. Just get out your tape and lay it out on the last. If the vamp looks short move it. If the quarters are not symetrical, move them.
Vamp opening on slipons and tieons you can play with it. If you want counter foxing, toe caps, logos, just draw it on. Wipe off till your happy. Then put one more layer of tape over to protect the designs.
If the forme is symetrical then cut the centre heel and vamp line. Slitt he known areas of stretch, toe and heel. If you are making a laced boot you have to account for the facing opening. and flatten the tape on to paper. Add your seam and lasting allowance. Cut the parts.
On ortho cases with very non symetrical quarters. I cut each quarter and vamp from the tape. Look at the last and see were you have to account for counters, build ups, rocker soles etc.
This knowledge comes for experiance and making mistakes. Making fitting models will help you learn!!
As for "springing" the old mentor did it to higher heeled footwear, to avoid excess material at the featherline.
I also remember reading a book more focused on commercial footwear manufacturing, they would spring the pattern a bit to maximize yield in the clicking phase.
Taking a 1D material to a 2D pattern to a 3D form.
Again as my mentor told me " you must build tension in the footwear" He would grab a shoe and pinch across the ball, upper to insole. If it did not rebound it was garbage.
Pattern making, may ways, the outcome should be the same?
I' throw in a thought or two.
I do mostly orthopedic work. I used the tape method.
When you need so make two different shoes/lasts look the same.
If you try any geometric work you will dye an ugly hairless person.
2-3 layers of clear packing tape, layed at angles. Hit it with a heat gun to take out major wrinkles.
Get out a Bic pen. Draw your heel centre line then eyeball the centre of the front of the last. Put a few dots along your site line from the top of the cone to the toe. Debate as much as you want depending on toe shape.
I use a flexable steel ruler to connect the last center line dots. If all your dots arn't lined up, use a straight edge and average the centre line. If It does not look right just wipe the pen marks off with a rag.
Once you have you centers marked. Just draw away.
Given a few perameters, which is in Sharp etc. Just get out your tape and lay it out on the last. If the vamp looks short move it. If the quarters are not symetrical, move them.
Vamp opening on slipons and tieons you can play with it. If you want counter foxing, toe caps, logos, just draw it on. Wipe off till your happy. Then put one more layer of tape over to protect the designs.
If the forme is symetrical then cut the centre heel and vamp line. Slitt he known areas of stretch, toe and heel. If you are making a laced boot you have to account for the facing opening. and flatten the tape on to paper. Add your seam and lasting allowance. Cut the parts.
On ortho cases with very non symetrical quarters. I cut each quarter and vamp from the tape. Look at the last and see were you have to account for counters, build ups, rocker soles etc.
This knowledge comes for experiance and making mistakes. Making fitting models will help you learn!!
As for "springing" the old mentor did it to higher heeled footwear, to avoid excess material at the featherline.
I also remember reading a book more focused on commercial footwear manufacturing, they would spring the pattern a bit to maximize yield in the clicking phase.
Taking a 1D material to a 2D pattern to a 3D form.
Again as my mentor told me " you must build tension in the footwear" He would grab a shoe and pinch across the ball, upper to insole. If it did not rebound it was garbage.
Pattern making, may ways, the outcome should be the same?
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frank_jones
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Re: Pattern making
I promised to have a sprung pattern to demonstrate how springing can put shape into an upper.
The first picture show patterns for the vamp and one quarter of an Oxford shoe. The quarter is exactly the shape the sewing machinist is given. You can see the prick marks indicating the seam allowance. Also that clearly the two curves are different.
The second picture shows the two upper sections once they are “sewn”. The seam is normally sewn from the bottom starting at the lasting edge. The machinist has to ensure that the vamp just touches the prick marks by pulling or pushing the upper sections during the seaming process.
The third picture is exactly the same but the vamp has been folded along the crease line of the pattern to show that the springing of this seam has put shape into the upper. The top edge of the facing is crank up above and at an angle to the crease line.
For information, these are copies of actual patterns in use in a UK factory that makes top-of-the-range Goodyear welted footwear. The springing was done flat on the cutting mat using the technique which Jan described in his first 4th June posting.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com
The first picture show patterns for the vamp and one quarter of an Oxford shoe. The quarter is exactly the shape the sewing machinist is given. You can see the prick marks indicating the seam allowance. Also that clearly the two curves are different.
The second picture shows the two upper sections once they are “sewn”. The seam is normally sewn from the bottom starting at the lasting edge. The machinist has to ensure that the vamp just touches the prick marks by pulling or pushing the upper sections during the seaming process.
The third picture is exactly the same but the vamp has been folded along the crease line of the pattern to show that the springing of this seam has put shape into the upper. The top edge of the facing is crank up above and at an angle to the crease line.
For information, these are copies of actual patterns in use in a UK factory that makes top-of-the-range Goodyear welted footwear. The springing was done flat on the cutting mat using the technique which Jan described in his first 4th June posting.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com
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romango
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Re: Pattern making
I thought the vamp point was related to the golden ratio.
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Rick,
Two thirds, eight-twelfths, SLL in stichs. Isn't all the same?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Two thirds, eight-twelfths, SLL in stichs. Isn't all the same?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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janne_melkersson
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Re: Pattern making
DW,
As Lance said, as long as the facing don't cut into the foot it is no problem.
Another possitive thing with this is that the fit around the heel will be very good because the shorter opening and the tight fit will hold the foot in place and support it well. First time clients use to comment this is as an sensationel experience
As Lance said, as long as the facing don't cut into the foot it is no problem.
Another possitive thing with this is that the fit around the heel will be very good because the shorter opening and the tight fit will hold the foot in place and support it well. First time clients use to comment this is as an sensationel experience
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dw
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Re: Pattern making
Janne,
Now that's reason enough!
Thanks!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Another possitive thing with this is that the fit around the heel will be very good because the shorter opening and the tight fit will hold the foot in place and support it well. First time clients use to comment this is as an sensationel experience
Now that's reason enough!
Thanks!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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lancepryor
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Re: Pattern making
Before Frank posted his pictures, the same thought had occurred to me. When I've sprung the patterns, I've noticed the shape that doing so had put into the sewn upper.
Here is a series of 3 pictures of the sprung upper pattern shown earlier, along with the last. I've marked on the vamp piece a pair of lines that show where the widest part of the last is (the outside joint area). Notice the shape that the springing has put in the 'upper' and where that shape is located. It may go without saying, but the 'unsprung' pattern would be completely flat on the table top through the joint area.
Lance
Here is a series of 3 pictures of the sprung upper pattern shown earlier, along with the last. I've marked on the vamp piece a pair of lines that show where the widest part of the last is (the outside joint area). Notice the shape that the springing has put in the 'upper' and where that shape is located. It may go without saying, but the 'unsprung' pattern would be completely flat on the table top through the joint area.
Lance
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tjburr
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Re: Pattern making
I have just caught up with reading this set of posts which by-the-way are wonderful to have on this site for history. I wanted to add a few thoughts I have had on the subject in the past.
The books I have read deal with making a mean form by taping the last, drawing the middle line on the last, cutting the down this middle line, laying the two pieces out flat and averaging the results. You then draw the pattern pieces using the mean (average) form.
My image of springing the pattern, based on some trial patterns I have made are ...
Tape the last, draw the center line AND the rest of the pattern pieces on the tape, cut the tape on the pattern lines PRIOR to flattening the tape. Then flatten the pieces and define the individual pieces.
I have seen the cases where people have drawn on the last, but the descriptions have not been very informative as to when to cut the pattern.
On a derby or oxford, if you split the vamp down the middle and then connect the pattern pieces as shown in Lance's picture you will get a little "spring" in the pattern just like Lance's picture.
By doing this you are getting a better image of the 3D object in your 2D pattern.
Since it appears that at least some makers are last their shoes dry, this helps to get the leather flat against the wood/plastic by requiring less stretch. It would also seem that even in wet lasting this allows for a more uniform stretch.
I wish I had pictures of when I tried this.
The big problem I was having was; my drawing skills were less than perfect and was having trouble getting a symmetrical look on the last. So I can see adding the spring after taking an average of the two sides as solving this problem.
I would think you would also not want to combine the two techniques.
Terry
The books I have read deal with making a mean form by taping the last, drawing the middle line on the last, cutting the down this middle line, laying the two pieces out flat and averaging the results. You then draw the pattern pieces using the mean (average) form.
My image of springing the pattern, based on some trial patterns I have made are ...
Tape the last, draw the center line AND the rest of the pattern pieces on the tape, cut the tape on the pattern lines PRIOR to flattening the tape. Then flatten the pieces and define the individual pieces.
I have seen the cases where people have drawn on the last, but the descriptions have not been very informative as to when to cut the pattern.
On a derby or oxford, if you split the vamp down the middle and then connect the pattern pieces as shown in Lance's picture you will get a little "spring" in the pattern just like Lance's picture.
By doing this you are getting a better image of the 3D object in your 2D pattern.
Since it appears that at least some makers are last their shoes dry, this helps to get the leather flat against the wood/plastic by requiring less stretch. It would also seem that even in wet lasting this allows for a more uniform stretch.
I wish I had pictures of when I tried this.
The big problem I was having was; my drawing skills were less than perfect and was having trouble getting a symmetrical look on the last. So I can see adding the spring after taking an average of the two sides as solving this problem.
I would think you would also not want to combine the two techniques.
Terry
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noonan
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Re: Pattern making
After you have drafted about 1000 different styles of last, you'll figure out little tricks on your own to make accurate drafts. Even though we have a couple of guys here who scan all our new last, we pattern guys still take the data and average the medial and lateral to get our draft. By the way, these scanned drafts are so accurate, we have to scale them up 1.037% otherwise our draft is too tight, because The scan is the actual surface of the last. We always make a "drape" of the draft, just the medial and lateral drafts zig zagged together, and this should just lay onto the last , and without tugging or rubbing, the feather lines should be dead on. If not, just adjust a little, and make another draft. They always come out perfect though.
When we still drafted last by hand, I would take a peice of clear Scotch Magic tape, about a foot long and tape it to my cutting board. Then with my ruler, draw two straight lines the length of tape. Then cut these two strips of tape away, and there you have an already drawn, perfect straight line. Just lay it onto the cone center, and heel center and cut a draft. Or with a steady hand and good eyes, think like a land surveyor, plotting a straight line over the land he surveys, or the slope he is planning to install a ski lift, which needs to be perfectly straight. This always works too.
By the way, the argument between all pattern men and the best method for last drafting has been going on for a century at least. Kinda funny.
Tim
When we still drafted last by hand, I would take a peice of clear Scotch Magic tape, about a foot long and tape it to my cutting board. Then with my ruler, draw two straight lines the length of tape. Then cut these two strips of tape away, and there you have an already drawn, perfect straight line. Just lay it onto the cone center, and heel center and cut a draft. Or with a steady hand and good eyes, think like a land surveyor, plotting a straight line over the land he surveys, or the slope he is planning to install a ski lift, which needs to be perfectly straight. This always works too.
By the way, the argument between all pattern men and the best method for last drafting has been going on for a century at least. Kinda funny.
Tim