Pattern making

[luckyduck]

Thanks DW and Paul,

Got it now. I was imagining one big step instead of 2 little ones. Now it is just the distance between knowing what to do and being able to do it well.

Thanks again.

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

further to your question of cutting the vamp--the quarter curve and tongue here are two rough photos that illustrate how i do it. Bear in mind that there was no one to hold the template in place so they are just laying on the vamp more or less as they would have been when I made the cuts..

10794.jpg

10795.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[amuckart]

DW,

I recall you mentioning making those zinc patterns some time ago and I'm curious; do you have them in graded sizes or do you use essentially the same tounge pattern for multiple sizes of boot?

Thanks.

[dw]

Alasdair,

I use the same quarter curve pattern for all boots. And sized tongue templates, front and back--small and everything else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

Here is a jodhpurs uppers i said i will make, the mean form is taken from a shoe last, they sitting on a boot last,but surly can be made on shoe last with some build-up as Jan mentioned.

10797.jpg

Nasser
HCC-Member

[jkrichard]

Wouldn't the choice between a shoe or boot last on a jodhpur or other ankle type boot (or any boot for that matter) really be determined by desired heel height/last's toe spring?

Most of the roper/walking heel type boot lasts that I've seen have a similar instep shape and cone area to that of a shoe last--- their toe spring and max heel heights (before zeroing that toe spring) are about the same. The difference is mainly in the heel cup shape---I would think because of the difference in the thicknesses of counters applied (boots v shoes).

A last meant for a riding heel (or higher) has a much more pronounced instep and greater overall cone surface area---as the heel is elevated significantly above the ball and pushing the navicular bone forward.

I can see putting a small instep build on a shoe last for a jodhpur or riding boot that is actually going to be placed in stirrup---as English riders are constantly posting in trot--- and therefore changing heel to ball elevation and therefore displacing the navicular bone--- an allowance would be a good thing, I think. But for a jhodphur that was going to be worn solely for walking/fashion...I would question the use of a buildup on the instep at all.

Janne (et al) of course has been making shoes for at last one day longer than I have... so... with that in mind.

-Jeff
Member, HCC

[dw]

Jeffry,

I went through a process with regard to boot lasts and shoe lasts myownself. While I am not convinced that a boot last is needed to make a jodphur, there is a difference between shoe lasts and boot last...at least as i know and understand them.

All boot lasts even those set at lower heel height do have substance move higher on the last than shoe lasts. The cone is pushed up. This is necessary so that the foot may enter the boot more easily. The short heel is important.

On shoe last a great deal of the substance is pushed down under the cone and to the lateral side. The cone tends to be much narrower as is the comb (the top of the heel area).

While some of the old West End lasts seem to have a substantial curve to the cone many of the newer lasts are nearly a straight line from the waist to the high instep. I like that feature although it is not always possible to achieve when modeling a foot. And whenever I have a choice as to where to add substance when modifying a last I tend towards flattening the cone. It makes the facing lie straight when lasting.

My first shoe looked like a boot that had been cut off at the ankle. Since I started using real, sure enuf, shoe lasts, the overall effect has become much more elegant and sophisticated. And much more comfortable.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

To all the advocates of shoe last to be used for the jodhpurs,you are correct,here is the boot in-seamed today on a shoe last with some build-ups.

10803.jpg

Nasser
HCC-Member

[dw]

It's a nice looking jodhpur, Nasser. Are you going to "tree" it?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

Thank you,this is my first born Jodhpurs so to speak,since you brought up the subject up,i went ahead and made an upper i never made before,i think i made the front a little too high for blocking or i will try to do better blocking on the next,but i will try to tree them to get rid of that little crease on the top,if not the foot has to do it for me.

Best Regards
Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Well the reason I ask...and I don't think the front is too high to block, BTW...is that I was wondering where and how you would get trees made for this style of boot/shoe if you were gonna tree them. ??

I don't know anywhere to get sized trees made reasonably.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

Nasser,

These look great!

Thanks for showing both sides, it is good to see the strap attachments.

Is the back of the shoe in two pieces, or did you block the back of the shoe as well. Most of the examples I have seen had a seam up the entire back, but one did not.

What heel height is the last designed for? I find the discussion on the last of importance since I was hoping to make a pair on a shoe last since I did not want a real tall heel, and I do not have a boot last with a low heel.

Terry
HCC Member

[dearbone]

"Trees" I inherited some odd ones from a dead shoe/boot maker,but they are for taller boots,so i don't know if they can be of any use for this boots,but i will think of something,i also know the top of my board was a little forward for this boot. on a different note, i wish some of our wood working/last makers members will take the challenge and make some boot trees,i will buy some.

Terry,

Yes, The back is in two pieces on this one,but i can see it being done in one piece,provided good veg tan leather and good board and trimming the back to the standard after the stretched. the heel is about an inch and quarter or so and keep in mind a good blocking board is important here when you make yours.

Nasser
HCC-Member

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Nasser
Nice Jodhpurs The only ones I have seem had a lower type heel.

As for the boot trees. I'll bite. I have made a few over the years.

2 piece - 3 piece? Hardwood?

I would need a drawing and some measurements.
Regards
Brendan

[janne_melkersson]

Nasser,
great looking jodhpurs!

The crimping board you used did it have the same angle as a board for dressage and western boots?

[dearbone]

Gentlemen,thank you

Jan, the crimping boards i used were made by me,and i never seen a properly made dressage or a western boots trees up close.

Brendan, I was hoping you will read the post about the wood workers making some trees,i am interested in short/ankle boots trees in 3 pieces which are mainly front,back and the middle, i will see if i can find you a picture or maybe Jan or someone else has some ankle boots trees to post here. Thanks again and hope all is well,beside being frozen in your neck of the woods.

regards
Nasser

[janne_melkersson]

Nasser,
You did a good job making your crimping board without having seen any!

I was asking which style of board you where using because I have different boards for jodhpurs and dressage boots.

The one for jodhpurs has less step angle to avoid to much space between the shin and the crimped vamp.

I don't tree jodhpur boots but if a client ask for boot trees I order a pair.

[dearbone]

Jan,

Thank you for your input into this and as i said earlier i never made this boot before,but it represented a challenge,i realized the problem was in the shape of my crimping board and maybe was too lazy to do some rasping to get to the shape of my jodhpurs front on the pattern,point well taken on less angle to avoid too much space between the shin and the vamp. on a different note, i really like your village,it could be many places in Canada,stay warm.

regards
Nasser

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Nasser and Jan
any info appreciated. I am going to make the assumtion that the last is out and the tree goes in?

I have a couple nice huncks of maple.

Nasser I noticed the Wafov safer tape in the background

And yes the weather! last week was brutal -40+with a wind. School busses did not run. But my old chev truck ran with the block heater plugged in. roads are really icey . lots of deer running around the roads. You may get a chunk of deer off the grill of my truck.

But today a balmy 0c and no wind but fogged in.
Regards
Brendan

[headelf]

For those making trees, here are some photos from my collection. Other than the obvious Dehner boot pix, sources lost over time.

10807.jpg

10808.jpg

10809.jpg

10810.jpg

10811.jpg

10812.jpg

[jkrichard]

DW (or anyone, Nasser?),
Is it best---or, rather, is it a good way to approach the jodhpur as a mini-Wellington (*insert Austin Powers impression here---->____. I attempted to pattern a jhodhpur this past weekend and was left with much frustration with the vamp... I thought I re-approach this with an oversized block, treat as a wellington, then, essentially make quarter cuts with a template...

-Jeff
Member, HCC

[dearbone]

Jeff,

Can you be more specific what kind of issues you had trying to produce the vamp for the jodhpurs?Producing a good Castor pattern from the standard and correct crimping board is important,i am making two new crimping boards for this type of boots.

Georgene,

Thanks for posting your good looking trees,i see them being more useful to owners of ankle boots as Jan suggested.

Nasser
HCC-Member

[jkrichard]

Nasser,
I think my problem was largely in part due to leather choice. I chose a very stretchy Italian kip that simply would not play nice with the crimping board.
My questions was about the best approach to use with ankle boots, or rather, the most common approach. Was it best to crimp an oversized vamp, then use a (I'm not sure what a Castor pattern is...) template based off the breaking point of the last and crimp board (similar to making quarter cuts on a vamp---though vertical, vice horizontal) ?

-Jeff

[dw]

Nasser,

From your description, I don't think the leather was a problem. Generally speaking, the stretchier the leather the easier it is to block. The other side of the coin is that stretchy leather makes a soft and somewhat "rumpled" boot....not always the best for a clean elegant appearance.

I have a jodhpur in the works somewhere down the line here and what I will do is layout the standard and then design a crimping board to replicate the profile of the front.

I will choose a nice veg calf (if I can get it) and cut it oversize.

The castor patterns will be taken from the standard--it is the pattern you will use to cut the blocker to size and shape...including folding allowances, etc..

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

Jeff,

Modern tan kip i don't even use for lining at the worst of times,let alone on top and for this design which the front needs to be crimped,nothing short of a well tan veg calf or well tan chrome calf will do well here,I am also beginning to dislike most modern chrome tanning and considering joining Al Saguto veg tan only school.On a different note,there is no one approach for ankle boots,but each is has it's own approach, you can make oversize the the area where the straps will be attached for tacking and crimping and than can be trimmed to size,but i am warning you,but not discouraging you,that it is not an easy boots to make well without preparations,at least that was the case here.

Nasser
HCC-Member