Pattern making

[relferink]

Tim,

You caught me in between naps. Do you (or anyone else) know of any books that offer a good description of the Lunati method other than the Italian results Google throws at me.
Oh, hold on. Time for another nap.

Rob

[artzend]

Rob,

I have only seen a photocopied handout, I don't know if there is a book anywhere. The handout had a lot of notes added by students so may have been less than a full account.

Tim

[bill_harris]

I spent the holiday weekend wrestling with George Koeloff's geometric method of making patterns for shoes.
It takes longer to put this geometry into my old CADKEY 98 program but making changes in the geometry is cut and paste.
I compared Koeloff's method with the mean forms from lasts that I had made by Dawkins in 1982 and from lasts that were made from my own foot casting.
These mean forms were made using the method in H. J. Patrick's book and the 2 mean forms were practically identical.
Patterns from these mean forms were made per Patrick's book and the boots made from these patterns fit well.

When Mr.Koeloff's line from J to H was extended by 15 mm to the right along this line from J to H my mean forms lined up pretty good with the rest of Koeloff's geometry.
This 15 mm is about the difference between the radius of the heel and the perimeter of the last from the side of the heel to the back of the heel.
Point H2 can stay about where George put it for a 1-5/8 heel.
The heel radius on my mean form is about 65 mm.
This arc starts tangent to a line through my new point H that is parallel to line A to D and this arc finishes near George's point H2.

In Analysis,

Bill Harris

[big_larry]

We are talking about patternmaking, yes?

My level of development is just now getting to improving on details. As we take a moment to catch our breath from shoe design, I wish to give a special thanks to D.W. and his counter part in 1962 for debating the "Short Heel" method of designing the boot top. I am playing and working with that instruction and direction given in that exchange of ideas. Thank you for the pictures that make the top fitting so much more understandable.

This section was like a "bright light in the night" to get the right fit and not just guess and trust the pattern supplied at school. Please note that I am greatful for the school patterns, and I have done well by them, but now I want to be right on the money. DW, thank you again!

Larry Peterson

[dw]

Larry,

Heck, I don't know who or what you're talking about in 1962...in 1962 I was still two years away from Vietnam.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tim,

On another note, I wonder if the fact that you used a boot last is the reason you have the gaping between the facings, I would still like to see a photo of the top surface. Firstly the back of the last is probably a bit thicker than a shoe last and also the shape of the cone of the boot last is sometimes a bit more upright and thicker than a shoe last. When you last wet it is possible that the extra stretch available has allowed the gaping to happen. I don't see that the little slit in the lining is a weak spot, it really doesn't make a difference I don't think.

I'm not ignoring you...and this has been suggested several times...although I'm skeptical I'm withholding judgement until I try things on the shoe last I have coming.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

That's ok, I was just thinking aloud (or silently) and trying to troubleshoot where your problems were.

I dont like to leave you hanging with something that doesn't do what you want it to and I can't think of anything else to look at now.

Tim

[big_larry]

DW

Oh how the years pass by and time runs togather. Please forgive my error. I was refering to throat measurement in 2002.

Thank you, Larry Peterson

[dw]

Larry,

Oh that one! Yes, that was interesting wasn't it? Although, for me the main thing I learned was to reinforce my contention that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Al Saguto is a terrific boot/shoemaker and his perspective, while not the same as mine, surely works as well...at least for him.

Glad it helped.

If you want a piece of advice (I'm known for giving it gratuitously)...don't get too far afield from what you have learned and are comfortable with, especially at first. Taking snippets of technique from one feller or another is fine but when you start incorporating major design elements or theory from one maker into the procedures of another, you'll almost always end up with a problem. Just be careful.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Thank you DW.

Just as a side note, and if I remember correctly, wasn't my teacher one of your students? I appreciate your counsel and I will be careful. My psychiatrist tells me that I do not have to be obsessive, nor compusiive, nor neurotic to be a boot maker. But he also said that it would help a lot if I were.
Thanx again.


Larry Peterson

[dw]

Larry,

Yes, he came to one of my seminars. Was he a student? I wouldn't say that, if only because he was a bootmaker in his own right when he came.

In point of fact, that was a lot of years ago...I was just then beginning to develop my understanding of how to fit a foot, particularly with regard to the short heel, and I'm afraid that I didn't serve him as well as I would have hoped.

As far as your psychiatrist's advice...he's not far wrong--you just need to set standards for yourself that are always just a little...and not much more than just a little...bit beyond your reach.

Whenever I run across someone who knows how to do the job right and yet chooses to take shortcuts, I think that that person must be a bit bored with it all. I can't think of anything sadder.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Question...when designing aqnd making an oxford...is the standard made such that the facings are closed at the top or does one design so that a small gap is created at the top?

When lasting...do you build the last shy of the instep girth and last the facings tight together, or do you build the last to exact measurements and last so that there is a small gap in the facings at the top? Or...do you build the last spot on and last so that the facings are together?

Getting ready to start another...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

The top of the facings should be 8mm apart, or 4mm down on the mean forme but at the bottom there is no allowance.

You fit the last exactly (no point in trying to guess fittings) and when you last leave the gap at the top.

So to answer the longer question, you build the last accurately and last as you want the shoe to be finished and if you don't leave the gap at the top you have no adjustment.

Go for it.

Tim

[tjburr]

Robert,

Sorry it took so long to respond, but I had to find time to do some research and was tied up on getting the program to the testers.

For anyone who volunteered to test, I should have all the copies out by tomorrow evening.

You mentioned in the email

"So my question to Terry would be how hard it will be to scan in the mean forme and set up the pattern from there in the software you are developing. Maybe in the next version?"

Thanks for thinking past what I had implemented so far.

I re-educated myself on the mean forme, thanks Tim for such a good description in your book. I am still educating myself on lasted shoes, with only about a dozen shoes completed to date; my main experience has been in unlasted shoes.

To restate what I think you are suggesting is; A way to take a scanned image into the program and overlay a geometric design on it. The user would then scale the geometric design so that the mean forme can be fitted to the standard. A user could select a style such as derby and this would define all the key points for the pattern itself.

I think that would be fairly straightforward to do, and the architecture that I have in place with the program would probably allow this fairly easy.

I actually really like the idea. I have a goal to carry the program beyond generating only the standard, to having a way to build the standard and define a set of pattern pieces off of this.

The user would size the standard to a particular foot and it would print out the actual pattern pieces so the user did not have to take the standard and make the pieces themself.

Using the mean forme this way would still fit in well with this since even using the mean forme you could size the geometric design to match that of the mean forme and use the program to generate all the individual pieces.

I would be interested in knowing if that is what you were thinking as to capability. I would like to make sure I understand the desired process since if this is a useful option I would find it interesting to implement.

If this is what your were thinking, I would be interested in getting some feedback on how best to scale the pattern to the forme. For instance would scaling the overall standard width and height be good, or would you want to have control over more items than that; like the joint line location. Scaling would occur by grabbing parts on the design with the mouse pointer and pulling them to where you want. I was also thinking that one of the things you want is the ratios to remain constant for some things so things like the toe cap are in the correct location.

So I will have to research a little what the user should be able to re-size and what they should not be able to.

Terry

[dw]

Tim,

I kind of figured that was the deal...that's the way I did it. It's also the way I design and make derby boots. But I see all these high shelf shoes presented with their facing laced tight together and even though I was sure that was just a presentation thing, I was curious.

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

Yes it doesn't makes sense to me to design with no adjustments, Even if you have the measurements spot on, you will probably need adjustments at some stage and you can't put it in later. At least, not easily.

Any other method seems to be playing with guesswork.

Tim

[dw]

Tim, Rob, all..

Well, here's my first pair of bona fides...actually not a pair but only a single. I made a lot of mistakes. Learned a lot of new techniques as well as what can be done and what cannot--such as:

I learned that a very thin (6 iron?) heel stiffener made from shoulder is plenty hard enough for a shoe. I learned that an even thinner piece of shoulder can be made into a very respectable toe stiffener. I learned how to put in an inserted (rather than sewn-in) heel stiffener with Hirschkleber.

And that's just talking about the characteristics of materials..

As I said I made so many mistakes--from dumb, inattentive mistakes (some patterning, some technical, to simple ignorance of technique or materials. But all in all I came away more fired up than before and hopeful.

Here's a couple photos...since it wasn't a pair I didn't think they deserved to be in the Gallery. Next time.

5431.jpg

5432.jpg

BTW, both converted from raw images.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW,

Looks good, very neat. The boot last does give it a bit of a different look at the front and it will be interesting to see if the shoe looks different on a shoe last. I would be keen to see that.

That stay stitch is a lot higher than I would have put it but I think we covered that before. As I said, a very good first pair.

Tim

[shoestring]

DW,

I think that's a positive job after all you may have thought boot but you finished shoe.I look at it this way you were driving an automatic and now went to an 5 speed,a car is a car.If that's a boot last it's mighty fine.

Ed

[dw]

Tim, Ed,

Thank you. Yes, that stay stitch...well, what can I say? I wasn't operating on all cylinders on that one. I knew it almost immediately. That's just one of my mistakes. I tell myself it's because I really want the vamp point to be 5mm higher. If it were, the stay stitch would be in the right spot.

Also, the toe cap could have been 5mm back further. That, however, was a patterning mistake.

The welt was too thick, and too soft. I cut it from insole shoulder as an experiment.

The outsole was too thick. Like Ed said, "thinking boot."

Other things I learned:

A 7 iron insole is adequate for channeling and inseaming...even by a bootmaker. The outside channel or feather could be a hair wider (cut deeper in toward the centerline of the insole) in the forepart and a lot wider in the waist. I've got to think three-eighths or so for the channel in the waist.

Six eyelets is too many for an oxford. The eyelets could be placed in a gentle curve, widening apart at the bottom.

Pegging the medial waist is a really good look but may not be so pleasing on a lower heeled shoe. "Fiddling" (?) the waist may be a better idea on both lateral and medial sides.

Use linen thread for the stay stitch..so that it can be coloured to match the vamp. Dacron doesn't get it.

I'm going to have to clean up my act when it comes to channeling and hand stitching the outsoles. Using welting that is too soft is a prescription for disaster.

Dye welt ahead of time.

Need to find a really good recipe/technique for antiquing the edges, seams and...when the time comes...gimping and broguing.

Need to find a good source for shoe trees.

Three things to improve on:

Patterning.

Closing.

Bottoming.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

On the last, the high crown really gives it a boot look. But that seems to be gone on the foot view. This is one mystery for me... if there is a function of the high crown other than perhaps making the boot look better on the store shelf, so to speak. That is, if we use the same girth measurements for a shoe or a boot, does the last shape in the crown area make any difference to the fit or look, once on the foot?

(Message edited by romango on September 08, 2007)

[dw]

Rick,

I have always understood (from my talks with lastmakers) that the high cone on lasts that were particularly suited for pull-on boots, evolved to open the throat of the boot and prevent the break from slipping too far down the cone...which would, in turn, induce an unwanted forward lean...at least with the kinds of patterns I am familiar with. So I think it is both a matter of mechanics and esthetics.

It might be well to recall, however (I just did), that lasts suitable for making English riding boots more closely resemble the foot (or a shoe last) than what you and I are calling a boot last.

I have talked with bootmakers who claim to have good results using plaster casts (which would result in a last that modeled the foot much more closely) or shoe lasts that attempted to duplicate the actual topography of the foot.

I cannot speak to those results one way or the other. In the end, even if we don't care for the esthetics of a boot made on a foot shaped last, if it fits it is a sucess.

Do you like the looks of the oxford on the boot last? I have put my thoughts on that in abeyance until I have worked with a shoe last in the same size. And...can also eliminate the variation that might be due to lasting wet vs. lasting dry.

I do think that if the measurements are correct in all dimensions, the shoe will fit regardless it being made upon a boot last or shoe last.

I am rushing to judgement in a sense, I suppose, when I observe that bootmakers who consider the short heel, a high and low instep, and even the long heel as they build up their last may have a edge on shoemakers, in this regard, who might not be so rigorous. [I don't know how rigorous individual shoemakers are, but certainly common patterning techniques would suggest something short of what I consider critical.]

There have been a number of bootmakers who made derby style shoe/boots quite sucessfully on boot lasts. Lasts that were much more at odds with the shape and configuration the foot and of the lasts than I, at least, use.

So in that sense, and from this one experience alone, I can offer a tentative observation...handled correctly in the fitting up process, the only difference in making a shoe over a boot last, versus making one over a shoe last, is possibly esthetic. Certainly from my limited experience, fit is not an issue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on September 09, 2007)

[romango]

I have made several pairs of shoes on foot cast lasts. The finished shoe has a noticeably open and round topline compared to a pair made on a commercial last. The later looks better on the shelf but, once worn, I can no longer see the difference between the two.

Your Oxfords look very nice. I agree the toe cap looks a touch low. To my eye, the topline swoops a little low toward the front. I usually think of the low point as centered on the ankle. From my very little experience). Thickness of the welt seems more of a style thing. But if you are going for a dance shoe, thinner is more the norm.

[dw]

Rick,

I thought they sat a little low on the last (although the patterns I used did put the low point of the topline more further forward than you suggest) but I am not sure if that's not just a result of wet lasting and perhaps pulling a little more over the toe than I needed to.

That said, when they are on my foot, I don't know if it would serve to have the shoe further up my instep. I just don't know--they seem secure where they are. Maybe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

Terry,

To restate what I think you are suggesting is; A way to take a scanned image into the program and overlay a geometric design on it. The user would then scale the geometric design so that the mean forme can be fitted to the standard. A user could select a style such as derby and this would define all the key points for the pattern itself.

Yes, that's along the way I was thinking. I don't know if this makes sense to others but that's along the lines I make my patterns. It would be nice to have the key points projected automatically as long as there is a way to tweak them to a slightly different position as needed when working with non-conforming lasts. The key points projected according to the geometric system are a great starting point but I find myself tweaking the points as I see fit, just to improve fit or function.

Secondly it would be really nice to be able to have the program lead to the standard and the individual pattern pieces.
I feel like a little kid here, you give a finger and I want to take a hand.... Guess that's only human.

I'll "play around" with the program to get a really good understanding of it's current possibilities and limitations and give you more feedback (and an updated wish list ) from there.

Rob