Top patterns/stitching

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dw
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#326 Post by dw » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:02 pm

Not a great photo but maybe it will work for you...
11833.jpg


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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#327 Post by producthaus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:21 pm

Thanks DWFII. A few more questions about french cord:

Assuming a regular post-bed machine, how do you get the longer bottom thread seen in the picture?
In an industrial setting, the machine is set up to allow a longer bottom thread loop while still maintaining stitch strength. Does loosening the bottom thread tension actually result in a longer loop? The thread take up leaver is still traveling the same distance regardless of thread tension.

Any tips for trimming the lining so close to the thread? Do people always cut it and stitch it in long, then trim back? Can you cut it to final size and glue to the top line, removing the need to trim afterward?

Any tips for sewing the second line of stitching to match perfectly with the first line? Just practice I suppose?

(Message edited by producthaus on November 01, 2010)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#328 Post by dw » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:38 pm

I am not sure that the bottom thread is deliberately made looser/longer...if that's what you're referring to. I've seen and done French binding without loosening the bobbin thread. And, frankly, I think it looks like crap when the bobbin thread is exposed like that. I've never seen a truly top shelf bespoke shoe made that way.

As for trimming the lining...I've seen makers use scissors, but the easiest way, in my opinion is simply to use a small french edger. And, I suspect that every maker of experience makes the liner a bit big and then trims after sewing. Experience teaches that trying to cut the lining to size is a fools game.

Second line? You better be good. On many styles of footwear a second line is a must but an erratic single line is seldom remarkable while the second line only underscores and accentuates the problems with the first.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#329 Post by producthaus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:05 pm


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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#330 Post by dw » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Nick,

Yes, that's the one. I use a "0" (?) it's about one-eighth inch wide.

I have the whole series and you can't find a better french edger. period. Especially if you ask for the "Frommer Cut."

However, I have heard rumours that Ron's Tools wouldn't be in business much longer due to the health of the owner.[img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] Get them while you can.

You can find these on Ebay ever so often...the old CS Osbournes were pretty good.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#331 Post by frank_jones » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:38 pm

Apologies for not spotting the details of this discussion before. I am not at all sure about the edge treatment being called French Cord. I agree with Tim Skyrme. I think this is French Binding. The binding is simply pulled over very hard. Because the outside upper leather is quite thick and probably stiff you get the stitch “grinning” which looks like loosened thread.

The French Binding process has three basic steps.
11837.gif
11837.gif (1.32 KiB) Viewed 1276 times

The first is sewing the binding face to face with the topline of the outside leather, often with topline tape sewn on the flesh side through a guide on the post machine.
11836.gif
11836.gif (1.18 KiB) Viewed 1276 times

Then the binding is turned over the topline and stuck to the flesh side of the outside leather. The “grinning” mentioned earlier occurs at this stage.
Finally, a further row of stitching is done on the post machine.
11835.gif
11835.gif (1.18 KiB) Viewed 1276 times

Often, but not always, with a lining being sewn in place and trimmed as it is stitched by the underbed trimming device which commonly fitted as an extra on a post machine set up to sew toplines.

Lining leathers are often much lighter weight and therefore more stretchy than the outside leather. One result of this is the lining will stretch and generally behave very differently to the outside leather. To deal with this, a 3mm extra allowance is added to the lining along the topline which is trimmed to fit accurately.
A good french edger in skilled hands is a joy to watch when trimming the lining to perfection.

Frank Jones
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#332 Post by producthaus » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:58 pm

I am trying to follow Tim's words on applying topline tape for eyelet reinforcements, but I don't quite understand how it is to oriented...attached is a picture of two guesses. Are either correct?

As a second question, I should probably apply topline tape to the quarter curve where it is to be stitched...?

12471.jpg

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#333 Post by courtney » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:52 pm

I dont think he says to use tape for eyelet reinforcements, I think you should use leather.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#334 Post by artzend » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:55 pm

Nick

The topline tape does not need to continue past the curve at top of the facings (above the eyelets), and not down the front of the facings. It is put in to stop the topline of a shoe, stretching when being lasted up.

The eyelet reinforcement as shown on the left is fine. It could be a bit wider, and probably should be. Reaching from just short of the facing edge, to about 10 mm past the eyelet holes, so if you want to run a row of stitches outside your eyelets, it can be caught in.

This looks like the quarter of a boot, in which case, you don't need topline tape anyway, but you do need the eyelet reinforcement or the eyelets will pull out, as well as being hard to put in if there is no bulk there.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#335 Post by artzend » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:12 pm

Courtney

I missed that. Thanks

Tim

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#336 Post by romango » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:04 am

I use fiberglass tape that I got in Budapest for eyelet reinforcement. It is very thin an extremely tear resistant.

It's the best stuff ever but I don't know where it can be purchased in the US. I picked up a lifetime supply in Budapest.

andre

Re: Top patterns/stitching

#337 Post by andre » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:13 am

Courtney,
the effect of the top line tape will be stronger, if you fold all over the tape, like you have done in the beginning of the quarter, may be you need to adjust a bit in the skiving. The reinforcement you can make up to 20 mm wide and if you don't want to use leather, even an nylon tape will do as long the eyelette is properly clinching in the leather. If you feel, it's still moving, better increase substance of the reinforcement, most properly than use leather, instead of hammering on the eyelettes or adjusting your tools.
Andre

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#338 Post by courtney » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:38 pm

I am trying to do cording around the top of the vamp to simulate a moccasin plug like the boots Nick posted above,

I cut a backer alittle bigger than the plug and shorter than the tounge and lightly glued around where the stitching will be, Does this sound about right?

I'm not real sure how to pull the cording through though, I would guess I'd have to use some kind of wire to get it through the little bit of adhesive, I dont know.

Anybody ever done this that could shed some light?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#339 Post by artzend » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:52 pm

Courtney

If you mark the underside of the leather where you want the cord to be placed, apply a coat of glue and also glue the cord. When dry, lay the cord into place and then reglue a wider area so you can put a thin leather lining to cover the cord and reach about 10 mm each side, use a wider strip if you want. Skive it well, but don't press it down too well.

Turn the work right side up, and with a bone folder, press in against the cord, rubbing right around on both sides of the cord, this should raise it a bit. Then, with the needle against the raised cord, stitch around both sides, This should have the effect of pulling the cord up and making it sit proud. It is/was called air cording.

It looks like Nick's boots used a very heavy thread with a long stitch length, but if you want you can do it by hand. Someone else may have a better way to do it. I used the technique for stitching raised bugs on boot vamps but a boot maker may have an alternative for you.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#340 Post by courtney » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:05 am

Man, I should have done it that way!

I tried doing it how I thought D.W. does it on the toe bugs, putting the backing on sewing it and the trying to push a twisted guitar string through.

I dont know if I got too much glue in my tunnel but this did not work.

Oh well, the rest of the stitching didnt look that good anyway.

I have no idea if these are going to fit, I built up my last to accomodate the orthotics, so these will be my fitters, I'm hoping if there not right I can just adjust and relast them.

But, it would be great if they fit.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#341 Post by dw » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:29 am

Courtney,

Well, no offense but if you're thinking about doing the way I would do it, you need to either ask me or at least use the proper tools.

When I do a toe bug I use a bicycle spoke that has been modified (made into a hook) and stuck into a handle. The spoke is at least 2mm in diameter--much, much heavier and stiffer than a guitar string. This will push through the excess cement/glue where a guitar string would not, could not.

The next thing is that if I were going to do this on a large scale (and I've only done it once or twice) I would layout a very precise pattern for where I wanted the cording to lie. I would deliberately design the stitching almost as the first step so that I could control placement, width of the bounding rows and by extension the deoth and width of the cording.

I would transfer that pattern to the back and glue (not cement...maybe use HirschKleber) relatively short skived strips of a thin backing leather, like kangaroo, the length of the proposed cording. Don't overlap the strips much or at all.

Turn the piece over and transfer your stitch pattern to the front. Sew the front, being careful to keep your lines of stitching perfectly parallel.

Now from the backside you can run your cording tool under each successive strip of kangaroo, pulling a double or quadruple bunch of cord under and between the lines of stitching.

It would also be possible to cut and skive a kangaroo backing piece that was full length, and after stitching use an awl to pierce intermittent holes in the kangaroo to allow the cording tool access.

The cording tool will separate the kangaroo backing from the foundation leather much more easily if you use a glue rather than rubber cement or, heaven forfend, all purpose.

PS...upon re-reading this, I worry that my first sentence came off a bit chuff. Pardon me, I did not intend to be short with you. In fact, I was chuckling at the image of trying to shove a guitar string between the leathers pieces and the rubber cement.

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(Message edited by dw on December 01, 2010)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#342 Post by courtney » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:29 am

Thanks D.W., I did read your post earlier describing the spoke and socket, but not sure exactly what it is all about w/ wax in the socket and all. cant quite see it.

I actually used some thick bailing wire that failed also.

I think I made a mess of the glue, I'm guessing I should try to keep it just on the edges?

Anyway, I think not using barge is probably a really good first step, and the short sections makes really good sense.

Would you skive the edges that meet each other on the backing or only the top and bottom?

Thanks for saying that about being chuff, If thats the worst I get asking questions of master shoe and boot makers, I would guess I'm getting off light.

Thanks,
Courtney

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#343 Post by artzend » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:39 pm

Courtney

You may need to add some material to your feather edge because of loss of material taken up going over the cord.

Tim

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#344 Post by courtney » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:18 pm

Thanks Tim, good tip, I'm giving myself an inch lasting allowance this time, so I dont think I'll have to worry.

Courtney

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#345 Post by ccs » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:09 pm

I'm trying to think through how to do the edging around the ankle opening on my lightweight (3-4 oz) unlined ballroom shoes project. The worn out shoes I've examined either use a strip of very thin (20 mil... 1.25 oz?) leather sewn to the the outside capturing a 1/8" fiberglass anti-stretch tape, then folded to the inside and sewn again and glued, or use a piece of synthetic ribbon treated the same way.

Either seems fine in usage, but I'm not sure where to get the fiberglass tape (and dislike working with it). On my fabric fitter I used some synthetic ribbon which seemed stretchproof (at least compared to the leather I'm planning to use), but as a result it can't form to the 3-dimensional shape - the lower edge digs in and the upper bells out. Suppose I could try using a narrower ribbon in place of the fiberglass if I source the leather strip (skiving it evenly by hand doesn't seem fun, and yet one more component to buy)

On all of my commercially made shoes, the tongue ends up pulling to one side, and I don't really want the whole lace through the slit thing. Any reason when I make mine not to try sewing the tongue to the upper all the way up the side it usually pulls away from, maybe making it a little wider?

Also one of the pieces of leather I got a bargain on for learning experiments was from a rather grimy box on the floor of a shop... if it were fabric I'd definitely be pre-washing it. Would it be better to do that ahead of time and dry it under tension in some sort of frame, or do it right as I'm ready to last and let it dry on the last?

(Message edited by ccs on January 11, 2011)

(Message edited by ccs on January 11, 2011)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#346 Post by romango » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:31 pm

Chris,

For shoes we use top-line tape which you can get here: http://www.cordwainertools.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=40&product_i d=73

It is not fiberglass.

(Message edited by romango on January 11, 2011)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#347 Post by piper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:36 pm

Sorry, it's me again. I am new to working with leather. Do you have any suggestions for how to make it easier to insert a needle into the leather? I have pre-made holes but it is still a struggle to push the needle in. I'm not trying to do anything fancy, just a plain straight stitch using a blunt needle.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#348 Post by piper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:35 pm

Hmm. I think I may have found a solution that works. I made my own stitching awl by sticking a sewing needle, sharp-side in, into a wine cork. Seems to work well and now I can get finer stitches than I was with the stitching awl I bought online.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#349 Post by artzend » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:00 pm

Diane

If you are handsewing you may need a bigger awl to make holes big enough for your needle to pass through. That, or try a smaller needle, I would think that a cork with a needle stuck in it would not be good in the long term as the needle will penetrate the cork eventually and stick in your hand.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#350 Post by piper » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:36 pm

Yeah. What I tried to do was use my sewing machine to punch the holes so they would be even. Then hand stitch. It's like pierced ears growing back! My awl makes ugly holes.

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