Top patterns/stitching

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#251 Post by relferink » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:36 pm

DW,

I don't think there is a standard other than your own, what you like and what you find acceptable. Oh, and maybe what your customer requests but that you can steer in any direction you wantImage. Generally I'm not a great fan of the contrasting topline bead, specifically on a brogued shoe but that's just my personal preference.
What shoe in HMSFM are you looking at?

I use rubber cement sparingly and budget a lot of time for cleanup, one hole at a time. I have seen the top beat sewn on free hand, only once and I would not advise it but it can be done. Leaving it extra wide does also help, that way you can cement below the broguing but it gets harder to follow the topline when you get near the facings.

You could make a top bead of a contrasting color, add a piece of split that's the same as the vamp and quarters and cement that to the top beat, that way the vamp leather will show through the broguing. You'll need a good splitter in order not to have to much material build up on the top bead. Don't know why it's not done. If it's just a shortcut or just not practical to make a top bead that wide with multiple layers to follow the topline.
It would really surprise me if there's not someone out there doing just that. It may just not be any of the makers featured in HMSFM.

Just my Image

Rob

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#252 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:51 pm

Rob,

Thought you might like to see the idea I came up with to deal with my brogued topline. This is kind of a cross between your suggestion of making the bead wider and Tim's excellent technique for folding a topline and necessity.
6353.jpg


Of course, it requires a good skiving machine...set to split...and a good knowledge of how to set that machine to split. But after that it's all gravy. And best of all it just drops in along the topline with a little Hirschkleber or dextrine and no fuss, no muss.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#253 Post by romango » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:06 pm

DW - did you shape this piece by gluing it to the manila folder shown (with a template line drawn)?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#254 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:40 pm

Rick,

First, I cut it to shape. I did that by tracing the facing and topline edge on a separate piece of pattern paper and then adding about a quarter inch (plus) for the turn and about a half inch for the under-the-broguing part.

Then I cut it to shape, split it, and skived it.

Then I traced the topline again on manila folder paper, cemented the split to the manila folder and turned it to match the traced line. Even if it is slightly off, you still have enough flexibility to adjust the placement of the bead itself so that it is very even. Actually, this is far more accurate for final placement than a standard bead simply because when placing the bead you have the tension of trying to go around curves which in turn makes it want to slip out of place. None of that with this method.

That said, it's a bit more labour intensive.

Hey, it's just an experiment at this stage to solve a problem. Which it seem to have done. Image

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#255 Post by romango » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:49 pm

I like the approach. A little extra effort up front keeps away the tears at the more difficult attachment step.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#256 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:15 pm

Rick,

Well, I went through six...seven?...strips to get what I wanted. but as I said this was an experiment and I went through those strips entirely trying to set the skiver to split evenly. In the end I cut the strips to size and shape and then split them. that worked pretty well. Before I had cut large panels and tried to split the panels and then cut the strips...if you follow.

Anyway once I got that procedure down it all went smoothly. Here's a couple of photos of the bead mounted on the quarter. Like most techniques, it's only hard the first half dozen times...Image
6356.jpg

6355.jpg


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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#257 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:18 pm

Hey, I didn't even notice until I posted the photos...looks like I've got a hanging chad or two on the end of the facing. Guess I'll have to go back and fix that.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#258 Post by romango » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:27 pm

Nice quarter panels! Yes, I've been through that process of trying to create topline trim strips with the skiver. It can be frustrating. It would be nice if someone sold rolls of leather ribbon in various colors.

Or, possibly a lighter duty hobby splitter might work better than a Fortuna.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#259 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:10 pm

Rick,

Thanks.

You know there are companies that make and sell both top bead and side welt already made up. Of course, that wouldn't address the issues I was dealing with in this shoe. Nor, frankly is the quality that high. But they're out there.

BTW for you and Rob and anyone else...I have been using Hirschkleber for counters and so forth but recently I read...here, I think...that dextrine was available as a product called Yes! I got mine at Michaels Craft supplies.

I am almost ready to say that it is the best glue for shoemaking I've ever tried. Mind you, I didn't say "cement."

But I mounted the top bead on the quarter with Yes! and all I had to do was spread a thin layer on the bead itself and then hold it in place for about thirty seconds. At which point it was sufficiently stuck that it would not move. Water soluble and seems moderately flexible too. I like it.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#260 Post by romango » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Yes! is indeed dextrine as you can see here on the manufacturers web site: http://www.ganebrothers.com/products/adhesives/yes_paste.htm

Dextrine is apparently another spelling for dextrin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextrine "a group of low-molecular-weight carbohydrates produced by the hydrolysis of starch."

Sounds yummy!

Thanks for the tip, DW!

(Message edited by romango on January 11, 2008)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#261 Post by relferink » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:16 pm

DW,

That's an innovative approach. Little more time and material but it certainly works. Are you running a cord through your bead?
Looks good on the quarter.
Thanks for the reminder about the Yes. I had read that but last time I was near a Micheals I forgot what I was there for. Not only do I hate when that happens, I really hate it when I have to admit itImage.

Rick, the Fortuna is the best tool for the job as long as the bell knife is razor sharp. From the top op my head I don't know the model numbers but for upper leather you need the machine with a rubber or stone/ceramic feed barrel. From there it's a matter of learning all the different ways you can set it up to skive and split.
For upper leather you should stay away from the top feed machines and the ribbed metal barrels, even the ones with the very fine ribs.

Rob

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#262 Post by dw » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:18 pm

Rob,

Thanks.

No, no cord. I might be tempted where there is no gimping but I think from what I've seen the points of the "chads" need to be just at the edge of the bead. Why that would make a difference if I had the cord running through it, I don't know...just a hunch that I wouldn't want it.

The dextrine is not a contact cement, it's a glue, so I knew I couldn't expect the same kind of instant tack as with rubber cement. But that said, it is pretty adhesive in just a small amount of time--that's what I like about it...it's almost "contact glue."

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#263 Post by romango » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:45 pm

DW,

I'm just starting to play with gimping on my Singer 31-15 and broguing . Are you gluing the piece to be gimped to something to use as a blade-stop? (don't know if that is the right term). If so, are you using leather blade-stop or plastic? What kind of glue, if any?

Are you putting on the edge brogue before or after gimping? I'm being a little lazy here but I thought I might benefit from your experiments so far.

- Rick

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#264 Post by dw » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:11 pm

Rick,

Well, this is a case of the blind leading the blind if there ever was one. Image

I have to say, by way of nothing in particular that I have really, really been happy with my gimping tool and the whole set up...and I am proud to have been a part of this by creating the prototypes and getting Dick interested.

In any case, I started out using HirschKleber to adhere the piece I wanted to gimp to a say, eight ounce piece of scrap. I never did use plastic. I ended up using the same thickness of leather for a "punch pad" but not gluing it at all--couldn't see that it helped much.

One thing about using this set up (and it might be a universal problem on any setup that one could find) as you come into a tight inside curve, you nearly have to place and gimp each point individually. I had to make two sets of counter covers for the semi-brogue derbies I am making (in between boots and student) because the gimping was so distorted up near the topline where the counter cover curves drastically.

As for broguing...well, I noticed in HMSFM that they gimped first so that's the way I did it. But I also played with broguing first. Either way, you have to have a pretty controlled gimp margin--what is being cut off--as well as a well defined distance from that edge to brogue along.

Hope that helps...

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(Message edited by dw on January 19, 2008)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#265 Post by romango » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:30 pm

Yes, thanks. Can I also ask what type of dye you use to antique?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#266 Post by dw » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:56 pm

Rick,

I have been playing with thinning Meltonian cream with Fiebings Leather Balm with Atom Wax. There's a world of possibility there and it seems...at first blush...to make a good antiquing. I would apply it with a fine bristled toothbrush or a round glue brush.

It also makes a pretty good bottom stain in the limited experiments I've done. Mike Strong was asking about this the other day and the responses he got, made me start looking at it for that function. One thing I found (leftover from other techniques that I employ) is that the cream will tend to streak. This is no problem. You need a final seal coat anyway and I use common, paste floorwax. Rub it on with your fingers or a soft cloth and the streaking will disappear. When dry buff.

Finally, Prime Finishes sells an antiquing in a number of colours that is heavy on wax as well. It is more a liquid and the consistency is close to what I've been trying to get at with the Meltonian/Leather Balm with Atom Wax. I will say that it is a deep stain...but right nowImage Trying to rub it off or ameliorate the stain out towards the margins of the broguing pattern is problematic at best.

Let us see how you are coming along. It is good to have another shoemaker/fanatic in the area (roughly) and I would guess that you will excel at this quickly if only because you don't have anything else to tug at your attention...'cepting Tango, of course. Goes without saying. Image

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#267 Post by romango » Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:14 pm

I've not got too far yet. Image
6687.jpg
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Is the Meltonian cream your colorant? Do you have some of this Prime Finishes antiquing stuff? (Warning: I'm gonna have to drive over there to get some, if you do).

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#268 Post by dw » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:27 pm

Rick,

Well, that what they're using in HMSFM--shoe polish.

What's that bar on your machine? Is that some sort of presserfoot lifter...moved to the front?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#269 Post by dw » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:29 pm

PS. I thought the polish...even the cream...might clog the broguing, that's why I thinned it.

PSS. Yes, I have some of the Prime Leather Antiquing--sample amounts only, however.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#270 Post by romango » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:37 pm

I don't know what it is. Came that way and I havn't been able to make any sense of it.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#271 Post by fred_coencped » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:58 am

Rick,DW,
It might be a Quilting Foot,I think......Also For gimping and brouging, I have been in a couple of shops that utilize ordinary split soling from shoe finders.It is 1/8th" thickness and about 75 durometer.It holds the leather ,does not damage the punches and maybe should not need pasting.
I had the opportunity to purchase a few brouging tools made in Mexico I believe and passed on it.They were multiple standard punches.like the 1 large punch and 2 small punch patterns.
I will try to find the source from my old employer and his makers and post it,since these tools are scarce.They are set also for the Singer 31-15.
I saw about 10 or more different set ups for $10.each,and have always regretted the lost opportunity.
Fred

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#272 Post by dw » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:04 am

Fred,

I always had heard that there were tools like that for the 31 class Singer, but I can't for the life of me figure out how a three punch block (if that's what you're talking about) could possibly work in a sewing machine...even one like the 31 class. If you can set the stitch length to 1cm (the distance between the large hole and the large hole again)...which I'm not entirely sure is possible...it might be workable but anything less and you'd have problems. I thought the better solution would be to have a single punch (large, relatively) and a double (both very small) but even that would entail a feed that was capable of a one cm stitch length. I don't know of a "vamping" machine capable of such a long feed.

I got some single "micro" punches from a student of mine several years ago. He got them in Taiwan, I think. They were tiny ...nothing like them available domestically that I know of. And, of course, they were strike punches, not made for use in the machine. But they were very hard to use. The barrels clogged almost with the first strike and if you punched three holes in a row you had to clear the barrel with a dressmaker's pin or you'd never get it cleared.

Still, that was all I had until just recently when I picked up some punches from Goetz in Germany. Strike punches again but the punches themselves are separate from the handle. The really eye opening thing (more like mind-boggling, actually), is that they are both precise in the interior diameter of the barrel and also polished inside the barrel. So the "nibs" just come floating out no matter how many strikes are made.

I would think that would be an issue with a broguing attachment for the sewing machine as well. Especially if the punches were not manufactured to extremely strict tolerances...as the German punches are. I believe you could either ruin a job or even split a punch if the barrel tended to clog up.

Having said all that the German stuff is spendy. And If there were less expensive alternatives that would let folks get into this kind of work a little more readily it would certainly be worth exploring. I'd be interested in seeing what was available.

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(Message edited by dw on January 20, 2008)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#273 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:04 pm

Hi Folks
I have seen a Brouge punch as described with one large hole and two offset and a tiny guide pin to register with the small hole. But it was a hand held unit like a rotary punch tool but fixed in place.
I might add my two cents worth. you might be trying to do something that is done with a "Clicker press" with a die all the shapes, holes, alignment marks are made in one big stomp 3,000 + lbs.

I can not remember seeing anything like that for a machine.

I bought a set of "pattern makers Punches" from Michalle Simard Ltd in Cambribge Ontario, Canada. Many years ago they are many sizes if circles, suares stars etc in many sizes. thry had one handle and you swapped out the heads. Good quality rarley clog. but I can't see a name but i'll look again. They are delicate but usefull.
Regards Brendan Balon

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#274 Post by romango » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:06 pm

DW,

The edge guide on my Goetz brogue tool seems to have a minimum standoff of ~7mm which seems fine with this double row of stitching but seem a little far from the edge for a single line of stitching. Does yours have the same minimum standoff?
6690.jpg
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#275 Post by dw » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:32 pm

Rick,

Well, I'm chuckling a little bit...and at least a little bit out of embarrassment. Image

First, I determined right off the bat that I was going to strip the edge guide and the "spacing"(?) guide off and just use it as a simple strike punch.

Then, when I tried to use it, I found out that my #8 punch set was defective.

So I sent the #8 set back to Goetz for exchange (just got the replacement Friday) and proceeded to do it all by hand and eye...one hole at a time. It was tedious and took more time than I would have liked but I guess that's the way it's done lots of places.

For me, after looking and looking, and studying every photo I can find, I have to say that I am not fond of two rows of stitching on either side of the broguing.

Having said all that yours looks pretty good but I can't visualize how you maintain an even distance from a gimped edge with that edge guide...seems like it would be forced into the "v" of the gimping at one spot and held on the outside of the "^" in another spot.

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