Top patterns/stitching

[dw]

Gary,

I looked close at page 148 in Art of the Boot and if you're talking about the outline of the state in the center of the page, or the flag in the upper right hand corner, I'd have to guess that the pieces are just glued. I see a shadow under the edge of the white on both. But you'ld almost have to ask the maker to be certain.

That said, I have done similar work and seamed each piece. Careful selection of the leathers used and even more careful skiving can almost eliminate any bulk whatsoever. But the problem is, that in the process the leather seams have to be flattened pretty good to get rid of that bulk. That almost always means that the seam itself will have to be spread a bit and some evidence of the stitching will show.

I don't see any evidence of stitching, but it very well could be just a really good job...particularly on the flag in the upper left hand corner. I could almost believe that that one's sewn and turned. If so, it's a dern good job.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

Gary.
I don't know what size these Texas flags are but if they are very small they probably have the edges folded and cemented with all-purpose. I don't believe these small inlays have any sewn seam. I would make the flags or Texas inlays larger and sew them. This is the way I do them. There is one on my web page done this way....TR

[gcunning]

Thanks Guys.
My wife has said if I don't have her a pair by the Wichita show she will fire me. I really don't know what that means but it scares me!
I thought the flags might be glued. It just looks to smooth to be stitched. Tex, I'm just about to get all "honey do's" out of the way. Are you still going to let me come down and bug ya a little?

[dw]

Here's a bit of an update on the "hidden tie-off" technique I outlined above.

Still using .008" guitar wire, I made a twisted wire bristle to use instead of the "needle threader." It works as well or better. Twist the wire really tightly, and then about ten twists beyond where you want it to end up--it will un-twist five twists or so--and then smooth the point with fine emery paper. You could even silver solder the twists if you are adept at that technique, but I haven't found it necessary.

2165.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lenboden]

DW,
Would it not be bit easier to just buy a couple of the small twisted bristles many use to inseam with, rather than get the wire and make'em?

[dw]

Len,

It might be, Len, there's only two problems I see with that...and both of them might very well come from my relative inexperience with wire bristles. The first is that I've never seen any that were thin enough. The .008" guitar wire makes a *really* thin bristle. And the second is that the wire that they use for guitar strings seems to hold the twist really well. So well, in fact, that you can smooth out the tip without knocking the twisted wires apart, if you see what I mean.

But play with it. Heck, a guitar string costs, what? a little over a buck and a half? That's a lot of bristles for a little scatch. And once you look into a pair of boots that are completely devoid of those ugly black flyspecks on the inside, you'll be convinced.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

Sorry, I was meaning to get to you the first time you posted this technique. Kismet? Who knows. But, what you've [re] discovered is a technique described by Rees, and I've seen it on archaeological shoes back through the 1750s. When hand-closing you're working with a thread with a bristle on both ends, right? For some reason, if a closer didn't start the seam up on the upper, in order to finish the seam down in the lasting margin where it doesn't matter how you finish-off, they'd take a few stitches on the back-side of the shoe tongue, for instance, just to secure the thread ends as you've illustrated. If they'd started the seam up on the upper, and used a separate thread for each seam, the first stitch would always be the half-way point of the thread, so no need to tie knots, etc. But, if you are going "backwards", or using bits of threads, the loose ends are up there where it matters--and you certainly don't want an uncomfortable or inelegant knot there--a few of these stitches solves the problem, and they seem to hold fine, even after 250 plus years of wear. How's that for quality and longevity

[bct]

Do you Top Stitch Historical Cowboy Boots or just stitch Handmade Cowboy boots?

Burk Boot Shop in Burkburnet Texas used a treadle 31-15 to do all the tops stitching including 4 rows of stitching and attaching vamps and counters.
Anybody else out there using a treadle to make a modern 4 piece cowboy boot?

I for one am grateful for Modern Machines!
Brian C. Thomas

[mnewberry]

I have a treadle base 31-15, and I do use it sometimes. Mostly it's a spare, and somewhere to send my six year old when we both want to sew at the same time. It's really no big deal to sew on.

Matt

[dw]

Brian,

Just a thought...take the time to really look at and study cowboy boots...or full wellingtons, or men's dress shoes--you choose. At what period in time do you think cowboy boots (if that's your choice) were at their best both technically and esthetically? When did the artistry reach it's peak? When was the choice of leathers the best? When did the techniques used to make them produce the very best quality? All the characteristics by which we judge quality and beauty. When were the standards set, in other words?

Now, you can't say the present, because the present never sets any standards until it's comfortably the past and what we think of when we think of a cowboy boot didn't originate yesterday or even 50 years ago.

Ok...so when do you think that hey-day was? The late 1800's? The early 1900's? The '20's? The '30's?

Whatever time period it is, ask yourself what was available to the makers then. What did they have to work with in terms of tools and machines and materials that allowed them to make such fabulous boots? If you admire that work, if those standards are your standards, then it follows that the best way to achieve something close, is to come as close as you can to using the same tools and machines, and materials.

The sewing machine was invented in...what?...1840? (I don't have a head for those figures but Elias Howe died in 1867 so it had to be somewhere in there) By the mid 1800's, the skiving machine had been invented. By the turn of the century the curved needle stitcher was in place, the finisher was in common usage, and and a lot of that machinery was powered.

The point of this...well, two points, actually...is that the sewing machine is *not* modern machinery--even on a power stand; and you can be as traditional as traditional is and if you're making cowboy boots, at least, you won't have to change much of what you're already doing to remain true to those historical standards.

That is unless you're using a Dremel tool...



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[bct]

DW just having a little fun! I had to take a second look at the 31-15 after admiring the top stitching on there boots. And wondering who else had a treadle topstitcher.

Still Riding For The Brand
Brian C. Thomas

[dw]

Two photos to provide a glimpse into a discussion we had some weeks ago...

The first photo is of a front panel--a close-up showing all the potential tie-off points. Each initial has several tie-off points and of course every truncated line of stitching is a tie-off point. Lots of "fly specks" on the lining.

2208.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

This second photo show the lining side of this very same top panel. Fly specks? Did I say fly specks?

2209.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

D.W.,

Great Work!

I have a question concerning the lengthening/shortening of stitches while sewing tight curves, or around inlays or letters as you have done here. Have you ever heard of grinding the upper roller pressor foot very narrow to compensate for this characteristic of sewing curves?

In the past, I've tried to feed more material into the machine or retard the material to try to alleviate this problem.

[dw]

Jake,

Thanks! I should give due credit to my better half who did the stitching--does all the stitching except for the boots I make expressly for show. And it should be mentioned that although the stitches look about a quarter inch long in the photos (ain't that a good photo? taken from about three inches with a digital camera!!) the stitching is actually about 17 or 18 to the inch.

I've always done what you do...fed or retarded the leather under the roller. I've never heard of grinding down the roller wheel. Have you tried that? Does it work? I had one of those sewing machines that are gear driven with a bottom feed wheel. It was smooth and very positive going over skived areas and such but I hated it, in fact simply because you couldn't manipulate the leather to lengthen or shorten the stitches in the tight curves.

Got the 2 1/2 inchers, BTW. Thanks much. They're maybe a tad too small. I'm thinking three inch might be about right.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

D.W.,

I've mentioned this a couple of times already, but I feel impelled to say it again, there's another GOOD hand in the Frommer Shop besides D.W. Another thing I noticed was that she stitched back over stitches while keeping her thread on the correct side (all at 17/18 spi)! And that is a good photo. Aren't they great!

I was talking to Bob Booth at Wichita Falls a few weeks ago about compensating for the short/long stitch phenomenon, and he mentioned thinning the upper roller. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to. Seems like I've been putting out fires ever since I got back. Anyway, while I was at Gary's house filling up my gut, I bumped into a lady who sew's boot tops for a living (Mary ?--Dick please help me out---I apologize Mary). I was talking to her about it, and she informed me that she used a very narrow upper pressor foot prepared by Bob. So, I'll let you know if I like it or not.

I agree with you concerning the gear driven bottom feed wheel machines (Singer 110 series). I bought a couple of Singer 110W124. They sew sweet on straight lines and such, but if you start trying to manipulate around tight curves, watch out! I've gone back to the Singer 31 series with bottom feed dogs. It might be a little more "bumpy", but you have that fraction of a second to rotate the goods and keep them from binding while turning tight curves. Now, I know I'm gonna catch hell from Tex, Lisa, and Mary, because they all use gear driven bottom feed wheel machines. The only way you can use these, in my humble opinion, is to raise the pressor foot after each stitch and rotate the goods. I never could make my stitch line look smooth. It always looked "jerky". Maybe I didn't try long enough.

Glad you got the awls. Like I said, they were a little too small for me too. Guess we're gonna have to order some 3" ers. Anyone want to piggy-back on my order?

[jake]

D.W.,

Talked with Toby Booth this afternoon (Bob's son). He's going to send me a narrowed upper roller presser foot. It will take him about a week to get it to me. So.....I'll let you know how I like it after I use it a couple of days.

I could have ground one down myself, but I didn't have any extra and didn't want to narrow my "only" roller for a machine.

[dw]

Jake,

Let me know what you think of the slimmer roller foot. I was sewing some tops this morning and thinking that with this dime size wheel, it would be pretty hard to make it much narrower. But I'm real interested in your take on the re-worked version.

With regards the awls...are you offering to steward a Buyer's Consortium to Barnsley? If so, I'm in for a dozen 3" sewing awls.

BTW, thanks for all the kind words about the tie off photos. You always did have a keen eye...seeing what most other folks miss or overlook. Your remarks about my alligator filigrees that I posted in the Gallery recently were particularly insightful--it actually startled me. It takes an eagle eye, and a critical eye, to be a good bootmaker, in my humble opinion.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[rileycraig]

Jake, DW,

I had one of the dime size wheels on my 31-15, but changed it out a couple of years ago (for some reason I don't recall) to the larger one. Regarding top stitching...does the smaller wheel make that much of a difference? I won't even ask about making it slimmer, I can't even imagine.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[jake]

D.W.,

First of all, Thanks for the kind words. All I can say is that I had (still have) a good teacher!

Yes, I'll organize a Buyer's Consortium with George Barnsley & Sons. It's not just for awls either. People need to give me their wish list. I believe I'll order some 3" ers too. I'm getting more confident with my inseaming and believe I can handle the smaller awl.

I believe I'm using a 5/8" roller presser foot. Mine is not too narrow. It could stand some narrowing. Toby said they narrow them to an 1/8" or narrower. Mine is much wider than that. We'll see how it works. I've been thinking about it ever since Bob and me were talking. I guess it's like fatter tires on your truck. There's alot more resistance to turning sharp turns with fatter tires.

Riley,

You and D.W. say dime size? That's pretty darn small. My "smaller" wheel is between a nickel and a quarter (5/8" I believe). Then there's the "bigger" wheel, which I believe is more like a 1" in diameter.

To answer your question about "smaller" and "bigger" presser feet, it's my personal opinion you can manipulate tighter curves with the smaller wheel. I can't think of an analogy to give you right now, but it does make a difference. As to being narrower, well....I'll let you know as soon as I try them.

[dw]

Riley,

Personally, I think that the dime size wheels are better for tight curves...sometimes I'm sewing around inlay holes that are a quarter inch in diameter or even smaller. But I would add one caveat--they should be ball bearing mounted...is that the right word?...anyway, many of the roller presser feet, large or small, made as replacement parts for Singer machines are not ball bearing-ed. And they are crap as far as I'm concerned.

Also just to add interest to this discussion...I have the following by private email from a fellow who doesn't wish to post or be identified:

Mr.. Frommer,

I have tried the narrow presser foot and the big problem is when you set the roller directly on top of the feed dog, where it should be, you are too far away from the needle. If the feed dog is set per Singer instructions and the pressure is set in the same manner the problem with long stitches should go away. The polishing of the roller foot will allow it to slide, causing problems, I've tried this also and it works O.K. until you have slight angle on the work such as padded inlay etc.

Please share this info if you care to and please it will not be necessary to mention my name, thank you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

BTW (forgot to include this thought) I too like my wheel to be close to the needle. The closer the better, short of the needle actually hitting the side of the wheel. And I think it's important that the wheel be centered on the needle, if you follow me. I can't count the times I've seen machines come from a shop (I was buying...or looking) with the wheel set behind the needle a little...or even ahead of the needle on occasion. This too will cause problems.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jake,

Yeah, the "dime" size wheel is probably 5/8". I have another machine set up with the larger wheel and like it for some things such as sewing the vamp on the tops. but for ornamental work give me the smaller wheel everytime. And with ball bearings!


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

D.W.,

I probably got the tips from you long ago, but I agree with you wholeheartedly concerning centering your wheel on the needle and placing the wheel as close as possible to the needle. Glad you mentioned it, because it has helped me a lot.

Actually, I like the bigger wheels for sewing fairly straight lines, but I keep the smaller wheels on my machine. Seems like I've always got a tight curve just around the bend.

As for the ball bearing actions, I don't have them on my machines. Dang you! Now I've got something else to buy!

As to something "anonymous" brought up, I'll have to check tomorrow and think about the feed dog and roller placement. I've never had any problems bringing my roller very, very, close to the needle. I bet you money my roller is not "directly" over my feed dogs either. But, with the upper roller very narrow, it could cause a problem. We'll just have to wait and see.

Anyway, good discussion from everyone. It's good to "stir" the pot every once in a while. By the way, I guess I didn't fluff any feathers with my comment on gear driven bottom feed wheel machines. I thought Tex would at least defend his gear driven Phaff!

[texrobinboots]

Jake,
No you didn't ruffle my feathers at all. I have used the 31-15 and the gear driven machines. I learned to stitch on an old 31-15. But when I bought the Pfaffs I never looked back at the 31-15s. And I don't miss them. I don't think the gear driven machines need any defending...TR