Top patterns/stitching

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dw
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#226 Post by dw »

Mark,

I hear you. Try stitching four lines of black on white tops (or vice versa)!

BTW, I edited my message about thread a few minutes ago...man, there must be something wrong with my spell checker!! Image

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#227 Post by firefly »

DW...

No thank you!! I think I'll leave that on the table for you guys with real talent.

And hey can we get spell checker on this thing? I sure wish we could. I have to type most posts in Word and cut and paste so I don't look like a complete illiterate (sp?).

Thanks,

Mark
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#228 Post by jesselee »

Mark

You are right, and practice is what makes it all enjoyable.
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#229 Post by jesselee »

Paul

I will have 2 pairs done by the end of the month. I tend to take my time and use this Craft as my spiritual meditation. Finishing up the boots of Dona Maria Sanchez and another Tex/Mex 1880's pair (for me). I would love to see the flower design.
I can't save on this computer, so I have to send to my photobucket site. But soon I will have 2 pairs photographed and all the written stats.
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#230 Post by dw »

Mark,

I know one is available...I'll look into it...but in the past it just slowed things down.

Personally, I don't worry about other people's spelling as long as I can figure out the meaning. that last one of mine made it hard.

I use my regular email program (it has a spell checker), replying to the posts and then cut and paste. You've got to be careful though, sometime folks just go ahead and hit send and then the reply just comes to me and never gets on the forum.

I tell myself, it's just a matter of slowing down and proofing what I've written but sometime i cnat mkae haesd orn ailts fo ti. Image

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#231 Post by jesselee »

Mark

Wadda ya mean talent! We just all crazy to be in this Trade... Sure is a lotta good brains to pick here!
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#232 Post by firefly »

Jesse Lee...you ain't just a whistlin' Dixie there. And I happy to have all of you because your helping me make a dream come to life.

And DW, surpirsingly enough I actually understood that last comment. Image

(hair on fire guy, I love him)

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#233 Post by spider »

Mr. Krause:

Yeah, I write worse than I speak. Lemme see if I can explain myself. The strip welt sticks out a half inch or so. So after you last the boot and tack it all down, it's a lot easier to cut it at the bottom where the sole's going to end up and trim it off the bottom end, leaving it flapping. Then when the boot's done and you trim it, you don't have to worry about trying to reach in and cut the last little bit at the sole. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

I'm building a pair on my last now. Maybe I'll just use a strip welt.

And leave my tie alone.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#234 Post by artzend »

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20259#p20259

Mark,

I realise your last post was a few weeks ago, but referring to the problem of having stitch holes showing and being dark behind white thread, this can be avoided most often by hammering the thread on a solid base when the stitching has been completed. This flattens the thread and tends to fill the holes making the stitches look much better and smoother.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#235 Post by dw »

When applying topline tape around the topline of a shoe, what do you do with the tape as you come around a corner--inside or outside? Do you just fold it on itself or do you snip it tio relieve the tension on the e4dge the way you do with leather?

Also, what is a good width for topline tape? Currently, I am using a "D" weight tape that is 1/2" cut in half length-wise--so my topline tape is effectively quarter inch wide. Is that about right?

BTW to Bill Harris...that dacron tape you sent was, I think, some sort of topline tape for women's shoes or perhaps some other particular application. But it didn't look like anything I would even imagine sewing with.

I could be wrong, but I've never seen or heard of it being used that way.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#236 Post by tjburr »

Hello everyone,

I was on vacation and did not have the internet access I had hoped I would, so I ended up with more time to work on the shoe pattern program more than I would have expected (it was also raining).

On top of adding features and changing the look some, I added in some capability to put a mean forme in the background. The present capability allows for the mean forme to be used as a background image, the user can adjust the x, y and rotation. The user also adjusts the measurements to fit. These adjustments are done from inputs to the main screen (background image position on the bottom, measurements on the side). I hope to add the ability to drag the background image with the mouse and drag points around in the future.

The image below is a mean forme I produced. This is my first one ever, so there may be some errors. I only had to adjust the foot length by 1mm, the joint by 1mm, and the short heel by 5mm to get the match shown. Since I have not worked with mean forme's before I was not sure everything was positioned correctly, but it should give you the idea. I changed the color of some of the lines to make them more visible relative to the mean forme.

Terry
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#237 Post by tjburr »

I am going to have to work on my image sizes when I post.

Does anyone have a pixel size they modify their images for?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#238 Post by admin »

Terry,

640x480 at 72dpi or thereabouts.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#239 Post by artzend »

DW,

You don't need anything as wide as that. I only used 3mm synthetic gift tying tape and all that a folding machine puts in is about the size of a monofilament fishing line.

Topline tape only stops the topline from stretching and so you don't need anything very much. This eliminates the need or even desire to cut it. Just glue it into place.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#240 Post by dw »

Tim,

That helps, thanks. I wonder though, if that's the case, if a person were adding a topline bead, why a linen thread core in the bead itself wouldn't suffice?

Hmmm, maybe because it's not getting caught by stitching?

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#241 Post by lancepryor »

I was doing a tape forme from a last yesterday, and I thought once again about a question I've had.

If you are doing a shoe pattern for a one-off last -- i.e. bespoke -- it there really any reason to combine the inside and outside formes to generate a 'mean forme'? Really, what purpose does the mean forme serve for one-off, bespoke lasts? In particular, if the lengths around the inside and outside of the last differ, doesn't the mean forme just cause the back line of the pattern to be off the centerline of the back of the last?

I guess without the mean forme making/lining up some things such as toe-caps could be a bit of an issue on the vamp, but still wouldn't the inherently (it seems to me) superior fit of the two forms be preferable to a mean forme generated pattern?

Any thoughts would be welcome.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#242 Post by artzend »

Lance,

I reckon you have answered your own question. If the forme on one side is innacurate then that would lead to problems in fitting to the last properly.

If you are going to the extent of making the formes it doesn't take much more time to get it accurate. You also need to adjust the back of the mean forme and so on.

The short answer is that it can be done, but I have often wondered how many pairs you have to stuff up to learn how to do it accurately.

I would recommend completing the mean forme for your own peace of mind, not to mention the extra work involved if it doesn't work.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#243 Post by artzend »

DW

If you are using a topline bead, you don't need the extra tape, but you didn't mention that you were going to do that before did you?

I don't think that you would get the finish you want on the topline by doing that. If you want to have that sort of look then a French Bound edge would be neater. Mostly you only do that sort of thing if using heavy weight leathers, otherwise I would say fold the topline.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#244 Post by dw »

Tim,

I am working on a pair now that I am using a bead on.

When I review shoes being made by some of the top shelf makers around the world, I see that top bead is used almost exclusively rather than a french bound edge. In fact, I've not seen a french bound edge on a bespoke shoe...at least not in the photos that are on the internet.

I think it would be hard to do a french bound edge under the following circumstances (which are pretty common)...a one piece upper; a brogued oxford where the topline of the quarter is gimped.

In the photos I seen and in my experience, I also note that the bead is much more refined than a french bound edge could possibly, theoretically, be.

I am very conservative on my boots...making the top bead so thast it does not exceed the substance of the leather that it is being mounted on, and when mounting, not allowing much more than the same thickness to peek out from under the edge.

But the top bead I am seeing on shoes is even more refined than that. And contrary to my own training and knee jerk inclinations, the top bead on the very best shoes is almost never...if ever...a contrasting colour to the leather of the quarters.

It's all new to me and exceedingly interesting.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#245 Post by dw »

Lance,

Take this with a grain of salt as you know my level of knowledge lags behind Tim's or even your own by a considerable amount.

But I have not had that problem myself.

I think...based on limited experience...that if a centerline is marked on the last at the back of the heel and the formes are cut very carefully to that line and then lined-up correctly when making the mean form (there are several books that describe how to do this) then the mean forme will result in a straight and centered backseam in the finished shoe. So far so good in my...again, limited...experience.

I have been told however that one could use either of the formes--inside or outside--"as is" to generate patterns that will work. After all, if we can generate reasonable patterns with geometry alone...no formes, at all...then formes may just be refinement not necessity.

But for me that's precisely what I'm looking for--refinement as opposed to mere necessity.

So, I'm still working on formes and mean formes. A couple of weeks ago I made a set of formes using the tape method then I made another set using flat paper with "cellophaned" windows.

The results were so nearly identical I was flabbergasted, althought the "windowed" method was much faster.

But I think the thing that really convinces me about formes is the profile of the heel. It is not a radiused curve as we might generate from a geometrical system. Taken from a last it tends to be more parabollic, if that's the correct term. But I believe that might be important. So it's mean formes for me...at least for now.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#246 Post by lancepryor »

Tim:

I'm not sure I understand your reply -- are you suggesting the mean forme is better than using 2 separate formes for the inside and outside portions of the shoe? If so, why?

DW:

I think this is perhaps more theoretical than real, but it seems to me that if the (say) inside feather edge distance is shorter than that of the outside, and you use a mean forme, then the inside pattern is too long, since you average the heel lines of the two formes. Thus, if the inner pattern is too long, then you end up with excess leather along the inside feather edge. Then, if you center the heel seam of the actual upper, which is of course easy enough to do, then you have to deal with the excess leather in the lasting. So, why not just use the separate inside and outside formes for generating patterns? I think if you marked a couple of points in the vamp before cutting the formes, one could figure out a way to make the vamp pattern match the two formes while retaining the unique requirements of the the last's inside and outside shapes for the balance of the upper. Furthermore, at least in the approaches I've seen, one has to end up 'swiveling' one of the formes at some point in the generation of the mean forme, which activity must introduce some distortion into the resultant mean forme --and hence also the pattern -- relative to that side of the last. So, again, wouldn't it just be better to use the separate formes to generate inside and outside patterns?

I would think the mean forme approach is good for pairs of lasts that are identical in the left and right shoes, since you can then use the same pattern for both uppers, but with bespoke lasts the two lasts differ, so again for an optimum fit wouldn't we want to do two patterns anyway?

I am just trying to understand what, if any, value there is in using the mean forme for bespoke shoes....

I have never tried the paper patterning approach -- I never have quite been able to figure out how to do it. If you want to post a video, that would be great! (hint, hint)

FWIW, the beading that the closer I watched use was simply skived, glued and pounded leather -- nothing such as cord in the middle.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#247 Post by dw »

Lance,

I read somewhere...maybe in Golding...that some makers do use an inside and outside form to create patterns. My only thought on this is that there are a lot of patterns or styles of patterns that are a merging of two halves. The quarters are, of course separate pieces and if you make your topline higher on the inside than on the outside you already are using two different patterns. But a one piece vamp is generated on either side of a fold line that, theoretically, at least, represents the centerline of the last. And, of course, toe caps and even vamps are taken from the standard and mirrored to create a whole pattern piece.

But a pattern created from a mean forme addresses any insuffiency on either side of that fold, and most of that will be trimmed off in the course of inseaming, so I guess I don't see any advantage in using separate formes for the vamps. Beyind that, I'm using the mean forme within a geometric matrix to generate a standard and the pattern pieces are then derived from the standard so again, I think the mean forme would be simpler than creating patterns from separate formes.

Of course, I'm speculating more than expressing firm conviction so take it all with a grain of salt. I'll be very interested in seeing how you develop this concept.

As for the beading...yes, I know. I saw that somewhere--on the upper you sent(?). But old habits die hard and not only was my beading leather too thin to come anywhere near the substance of the quarters if I just folded it, I have an an image in my mind in which the edge of the topline is skant skived and the bead fills the gap and thereby "hides" the raw edge more effectively than otherwise. Could be totally off base, but it's worked that way on boots all these years.


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(Message edited by dw on September 25, 2007)
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#248 Post by artzend »

DW

Sorry I forgot you are gimping the new shoe. Yes you just use the tape in the bead, although in lots of cases you can get away with the bead being enough to stop the stretch to a large extent. Because it was cut differently from the quarters it often serves the purpose of the tape.

When making shoes with a padded topline I didn't use tape as well. You can't under those circumstances.
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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#249 Post by artzend »

Lance

I think it is too difficult to get an exact middle front and back and therefore making a mean forme of the inside and outside quarters is the only way to be accurate.

Don't worry about the differences in lasting allowance. That is the least of your problems. Getting the backseam and any pattern pieces on the front accurate are more important.

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Re: Top patterns/stitching

#250 Post by dw »

I have a deep and disturbing question for long time shoemakers...and/or anyone else who either has an opinion or wants to speculate:

When mounting a top bead on a boot, I was taught to use rubber cement. And that works with a boot top. But I am playing with a semi-brogued derby at the moment and the topline is brogued. I hate using rubber cement up against that broguing because it clogs the holes. What do you guys use to mount topline bead and what was used before there ever was rubber cement...anyone know?

Here's another question right from the same shoe. I notice in HMSFM that at least some of the brogued shoes have a contrasting topline bead and that along the topline the colour of the bead is allowed to shoe through the broguing rather than backing the broguing with a split of the vamp leather as is done under the toecap and facing broguing. Is that the standard...if there is one? Or is it just a question of hurry up and hope?

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