Top patterns/stitching

[jesselee]

To Y'all

How many here like to do fancy stitching, pegging, nailing on heels and soles? I tend to go very wild and wonderful on bottom work with designs, stars, tooled shanks. The hell of it is, is that the heel and sole have to be covered by a 1/8 in. rubber piece to preserve the beauty underneath and changed a few times a year so the sole and heel does not wear. That frustrates me.
JesseLee

[spider]

Mr. Candela:

I've done a lot of buisness with Texas Leather Trim. Do business with them now. You're right, they're pretty easy to deal with.

That said, I'll have to agree with Mr. Krause that it might be better to make your own if you've just got one pair. It's pretty easy to do and sure worth learning for those times when you just gotta have some welt.

Suerte.

Spider

[spider]

Mr. Cantrell:

I once courted a gal for nine months and probably spent two thirds of my meager cowpuncher's wages trying to get her attention. She finally consented to go to dinner with me.

She brought along her older brother. He ordered steak and lobster. Date over by eight, and I didn't even have enough dough left to get drunk.

It ain't quite the same, but guess we've all been frustrated some time or other.

Spider

[firefly]

Guys,

I would make my own but I don't think I have the equipment to do the skiving. I waiting on my 5 in 1 but I don't think that is going to do the trick.

If you guys have some alternative suggestions on how to skive the strips down without a skiver I'm all ears.

Thanks,

Mark

[spider]

Mr. Candela:

It's best to start with a thin leather if you can, but thicker leather just means more skiving. I cut a side welt five-eights of an inch wide and always just a little longer than I need. Then you'll need a sharp knife (ain't no other kind) and a hard smooth surface. Skive both sides to nothing, run rubber cement over them and fold in half. I usually just line up both edges and fold, just like a sheet of paper. Then I'll put the side welt on a piece of scrap leather and put another piece of scrap on top (to keep your welt clean) and tap tap tap with a smooth-faced hammer.

There are plenty of machines out there, but if a guy's got a sharp knife, a little patience and some heart, he's got plenty.

Suerte.

Spider

[firefly]

Spider,

Thanks for the response. I'll give it a go this weekend and let you know how I faired. I'm lookin' forward to it.

Nogales? Been there and had a lot of fun on the other side of the border. That cave restaurant that used to be the prison is a great place.

Gracias...

Mark

[dw]

Mark,

Spider is a heck of a lot better skiver than I am...I wouldn't want to try that. But I'm sure with enough practice it can be done--once upon a time bell skivers and band splitters were nowhere to be had.

That said, just two suggestions, maybe neither will answer, who knows? But one, you could use a strip welt--this would be a strip of maybe six ounce harness or tooling leather, cut half inch wide, sewn into the side seam and then trimmed after the boot has been lasted. Most of the boots made by Arch LeForce at Western Boot Company back in the early half of the 20th century...even the dress boots...used a strip welt. I've even seen really, really exquisite, English dress wellingtons from the 19th century that used a strip welt. Handled properly and the welt either left natural or dyed black (only two options) it looks really good and really authentic.

Two, invest in a couple of basic colours of kangaroo (or even goat) they will be almost exactly the right thickness to begin with. No skiving necessary...and you can use it for top bead too.

I think one of the best reasons for making your own is, of course, that you can match the side welt to the leather in the boot. But even more importantly, if you are circumspect about choosing your upper leathers in the first place, the leather will be "struck through" (dyed solid from grain to flesh) and you'll not have the boots coming back looking like you wish they were someone else's.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[spider]

Mr. Frommer:

What a wild world. By a strange coincidence, I was talking to Paul Bond today about strip welts and he brought up Arch La Force, whose boot company he eventually bought. Mr. Bond still uses a strip welt on sheepskin-lined boots.

It's hard for me to imagine not skiving side welt. That's one of the reasons that pre-made welt looks funny (corriente) to me. I can't imagine not at least knocking the edge off.

I'm not sure it matters. I just know that the ghost of Rafael Vasquez would come and get me if I didn't skive those edges to darn near nothing.

Spider

[paul]

I want to try strip welt someday.

I'm guessing there's some trick to burnishing the edge after assembly. What tool would work best for that? Maybe a dull beader swivel knife?

Or is it all burnished up before assembly?

Anybody have any pictures to show?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

Actually, on page 144 of Bootmaker's Choice I deal briefly with strip welts and on page 151 I talk about how to trim them and what tools can be used. Of the several mentioned, I use a Osborne #2 "Best Edge" edger. It differs from other edgers in that the cutting edge is triangular shaped and the horizontal surface of the blade is "V" shaped, if I recall correctly.

The strip welt is usually trimmed quite close to the stitches (but, of course not so close as to endanger them) and I like to do it when the welt is slightly damp.

This tool will trim the strip welt quite nicely, rounding the sides of the strip welt and leaving a slight burnish (esp. if done damp). Further burnishing is optional but I never do it. All you would need is a burnishing tool and some sort of support for the side seam as you work. Do this after your boots are treed and the last is pulled.

Truth to tell I don't know why I don't use a strip welt more often. I actually like the looks of it a little better than a beaded side welt--it's so authentic--and it's so much less hassle and worry. But customers more or less expect beaded side welt so that's what we do.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[spider]

Mr. Krause:

The only thing different I might say is that it seems easier to me to trim a side welt with the trees in the boot.

It also makes it easier if you trim the welt off the underside of the boot to the sole line after the boot's lasted.

Spider

[firefly]

Spider,

When you said patience you weren't kidding. I forgot to tell you that I am bit older than the rest and might not have that much time left.

I tried most every knife I had and...well let's say that I was a little short of successful.

I will keep trying because I do believe that it is great skiving practice but I can see it is going to take me some time.

Thanks,

Mark

[firefly]

DW,

I have read in both of your books about using strip welting for the side welt.

Just a couple of questions:

Do you skive it at all on the inside where you stitch or do you just stitch the side seem through the full thickness?

Can I use it for top bead as well?

You also commented that I could use goat without skiving. It seems to be about 1 1/2-2oz. My tops are actually goat and I would not mind the side seam matching the tops.

Thanks,

Mark

[spider]

Sir:

If you're using goat, not a whole lot of skiving is necessary. It's mostly at the edges. In your place, I'd go ahead and try it without skiving at all, and then try skiving the edges. Like I noted yesterday, that factory welt isn't skived. Maybe it's just me and a couple other crazy Mexicans who do it anyway. Kid (goat) is sort of "fluffy" and gives a lot when sewn.

One further precaution: don't skive the side seam. That just weakens the stitches. I was there, was that soldier.

I don't guess I've ever seen any top piping that was a strip. As far as using it for a side welt, I'd knock off an edge, but make sure it's the full thickness where the stitch comes through or it'll be weak.

I'll sure be interested in seeing what Mr. Frommer has to say.

The only way you ever get a bronc rode is to jump in the middle of him and start spurring. The minute you start to doubt, it's over. Someone once told me "Echale, echale, no tengas miedo." (Do it, do it, don't be scared.) Not bad advice. The worst thing that can happen is you start over, a little smarter. Yeah, a guy might get bucked off, but you'll durn sure never get him rode if you don't crawl on.

Spider

[jesselee]

Mark

I have 2 skiving knives, both designed for the bookbinding Trade. ine is about 1 1/2 wide, the other is 3/4 wide. The first is British made and the second is hand forged Japanese steel. I can do perfect skives with both, as as is my way, I like even what you don't see to be prefect and pretty.

and don't be gettin old on us... not many of us left!

JesseLee

[firefly]

Spider,

I like your metaphor. Though I have eaten my fair share of arena dirt it was always fear that got me to eight.

I am going to stitch a couple of pieces together this evening to see how the unskived (is that a word?) goat works.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Mark

[firefly]

Jesse Lee,

I think the expression goes..."It's not the arrow it's the Indian"

What that means is that I need some more practice.

Thanks,

Mark

[firefly]

All,

Another topstitching question:

If you cannot find an exact thread color match would you lean towards something lighter or darker than the leather on which you are stitching (if you want it to blend that is).

Thanks,

Mark

[dw]

Mark,

I do not skive leather such as goat or kangaroo. I cut beaded side welt 5/8" wide. I place/cement a length of 6 cord stitcher thread right down the middle and cement the strip. Then when dry, I fold the strip edge to edge sandwiching the thread in the middle. I use a wooden beader to define the thread and lock the leather down tight around it.

One of the reasons, I mentioned strip welt was that making and using beaded welt is a really touchy business requiring as much or more accuracy than any other procedure. If you do not cut the side welt strip accurately, it will not fold accurately. If it is not folded accurately (I'm talking about absolute...or as close as humanly possible...precision here), it will vary in width. If it varies in width you will not be able to mount it on the top panel so that you can stitch it accurately. Remember that you are stitching blind when closing the sideseam. A complacency here will result either in overcast stitches (esp. if you are using a machine) or a big fat worm-like bead crawling up the side of your boot.

All this can be avoided by using a strip welt.

For top bead I cut the same width (same pattern actually) but I skive both edges. Then I lay in the stitcher cord but I offset it a little less than an eighth of an inch from center. I cement as with the side welt but I fold the edge an eighth of an inch shy of the other edge. Beading tool and then pink the edge.

I have never seen strip welt used for top bead. When I use strip welt I do not skive it.

As for my opinion...I don't see anything wrong with skiving side welt if it doesn't weaken the welt along the stitch line but I've never seen it done before, even on historical boots.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Mark,

I seem to come in at the questionin' part. But I sure don't want to be thought of as 'know-it-all Paul'.

My thoughts while I was doing that Tiger inlay was that I didn't want to stich the white, because the holes would be a dark dotted line.

Therefore my thought as to your question about where-to-err, makes me think lighter would be best, (maybe). The lighter thread would tone down the dark impressions of the needle hope. Or, viewed another way, the holes would darken the thread.

How's that? Try it, then burnish with a bone.

DW,

I don't know how I missed that. I must have skipped over the details, leaving it for later. I'll study up on it. I think I'm going to be using it soon.

Spider,

If you don't quit callin' me "Mr.", I'm gonna drag you by that string tie of yours, in front of the board for not introducing yourself!
But you make me wonder just what you mean by, "trim the welt off the underside of the boot to the sole line after the boot's lasted"?

Con no miedo,

Pablo

[dw]

Just for clarity's sake...in my lexicon, "skiving" is paring down an edge. Making it taper, more or less, depending on the application, from full substance to virtually nothing.

To take a piece of four ounce calf down to the approximately 2 ounce is "splitting" in the terminology I learned.

I cannot do this freehand with any consistency. I am good with a skiving knife and I dern sure know how to sharpen, but I would end up with a strip of leather that was two and a half ounces in some places and half an ounce in others.

To my eye, this never presents well. It looks ragged and unprofessional. Which is why I applaud Spider and Jesse for their skill.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Mark,

I think it depends which thread you would choose. This is a question of colour theory. Some thread colours will contrast more even though they are basically in the same range as the underlying leather. Some will contrast less. What do you want? The finess of a subtle edge? Or the excitement of a well defined edge?

I took some art classes way back when and it led me to a study of colour and harmony. For instance if you want to make a dark...say oxblood...red really snap, you contrast it with a green. Red and green push each other. Blue and orange push each other, violet and purple, etc..

Black leather can be blue based or red based. Brown leather can have more red or green in it. Seeing the difference can tell you what to do.

Depending on what you want to do...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Jesse,

I'd like to see pictures of what you're doing. It sounds interesting. Though this probably isn't the right subject thread.

I carved a rose pattern on a sole once, but it wasn't for a boot. It was the he** of it.

Now I'm thinking of another design on a sole bottom with pegs. Coaching would be appreciated.

PK

[firefly]

DW,

For the response to the first comment. I always thought that skiving was the reduction of the edge and splitting was the complete reduction of the thickness of the leather but I have been talking with a number of folks about equipment and they keep referring to splitting machines as skivers.

I just thought I was using the terminology wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. I was right all along and wrong about being wrong.

Secondly I was looking to achieve the finess of a subtle edge here. In other words DW I'm trying to hide the mistakes I make with the 31-15. Ok now that I have said that.

Paul, what you are saying makes sense that the hole would darken the stitch line. I ordered about five colors that look like a possibility. As soon as I get them I guess I will stitch up some samples and run them by the ultimate authority THE WIFE and we'll find out who's really right.

Thanks,

Mark

[dw]

Paul,

Here's a photo of the #2 Best Edge edger:

4936.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member