vamp leather question

[lancepryor]

Someone I know has a very nice pair of handmade shoes (by Vass, of the shoemaking book fame). He is , however, not so enamored of their color, which Vass call Antique Cognac. The leather is a very high quality calfskin. He is interested in having the leather finish stripped and refinished in a somewhat darker tone. Anyone have any suggestions for who in the US might be able to provide such a service?

Thanks in advance.

[j1a2g3]

I justed pulled the last from a boot I made. I used 6/7oz leather (oiled), 3oz cream cow, 10/11 iron heel counter and 7/8 iron toe box with 5/6 coats of press cement. I wet lasted it with a drop of liquid soap. I don't feel the boot is stiff enough. The leather seemed firm before I lasted it. I was wondering if the soap would have soften the leather even after it was lasted? Would a mid lining help stiffen the sides? Would a Latigo form Horween's be a better leather to use for a boot and would english kip be a better lining for a stiff boot? Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

I doubt soap would have done much to soften the leather. The purpose of the soap is to break up any surface oils so that water can penetrate more easily and such oils tend to get floated out of the leather--which would make the leather a little drier (maybe not significantly) and hence a little firmer.

But some oil stuffed leathers tend to be very open in structure...whether purposely contrived so that they can carry more oil or not, I don't know. But they will soften up on lasting and even tend to "pin wrinkle" when the boot is worn--something that I dislike so much I avoid, if possible, using that leather subsequently.

Having said that, you may not like the feel of the boot but I seriously doubt that if you are using and choosing quality leathers that you need to add a midliner or a backing or more substance. That's already a heavy boot and despite the way it looks it may give years and years of service.

And while your milage may vary, I think Horween's latigo is one of the best work leathers I've run across.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

Dw,

I am going to call Horween's Leather today and order the Latigo and a couple horse strips.

Is there much difference between the Latigo and the Beaumont that Horween carries?

Thanks Joel

[dw]

Joel,

The Beaumont is a dry leather and the latigo is oil stuffed. Otherwise the tannage is the same--veg/chrome.

I doubt you need anything heavier than 4 ounce and you want to specify that it be mill dyed (struck through) and not dry split.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

I just finished crimping a pair of French Calf blockers for my 1st pair of dress wellingtons. I noticed some grittiness when I was chasing wrinklers. The leather hasn't dried yet, but the finish doesn't seem to have the same luster it had before I crimped it. Did the finish come off when I was crimping? Does this happen alot with French Calf or was this leather just sub-par?

It was my 1st time crimping french calf and it was a lot harder getting the leather to lay flat on the break then the oil stuffed leather I practiced with.

Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

As the leather dries, you will know if the finish was damaged or not. But all leather will generally lose some luster when worked wet. There is usually a wax finish--an acrylic wax which is water based--on the surface and that will slough off.

If, however, you look closely at the leather and notice that there appears to be patches where the finish--the colour--is broken or missing, you may very well have lost the finish. I've seen this happen. It should not happen. The "grittiness" does not bode well, frankly.

One thing I do to prevent this from happening is that I use Lexol, or preferably R.M. Williams, as a lubricant on the surface of the leather when chasing pipes and wrinkles. I also use a polished bone smoother to chase.

Where did you get the leather? When did you get it? Recently?

I had similar problems with the French calf vamps on the war bonnet boots posted in the Gallery. Again, it should not happen. All things being equal and a reasonable amount of care having been taken, this is a problem with the leather. If you feel like you have taken proper precautions and handled the leather with a modicum of care, my advice is to call the supplier and let him/her know of the problem. If no solution is forthcoming, then let everyone here know and stop using the supplier.

When I first got into this business, I never saw these kinds of problems...and I was a heck of a lot rougher on leather than I am today.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

Dw,

I brought the leather from Panhandle Leather. It arrived at my home on Wednesday and I cut the blockers out that night and crimped them yesterday.

This morning I didn't notice any patches or colour missing. The leather just doesn't have that gloss finish to it anymore. Can I put that gloss or finish back on after the boot is done?

I have another question. I order latigo and beaumont leather from Horween Leather. They told me it would take 4 weeks to process it because they didn't have any on hand at the moment. Does this happen to you a lot with them? Just wondering if I need to order my upper leathers ahead of time and then let customers pick their leather from what I have on hand. I didn't really want to keep a large inventory on hand but I'm beginning to think that might be a better way to go. Any suggestions, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

Well, maybe not exactly but if you call Prime Leatrher finishes and ask to talk to a tech rep, and tell him what you want to do---you want a finish system that can be applied by sponge...a conditioner, a dressing, and a top coat--you'll be able to bring the leather back up to "table." These are just acryllic waxes probably very similar to what was lost in the wetting.

Horween is infamously slow and sometimes it seems as if they don't want to deal with anyone. That's the word around the leather Trade...so yes, you have to anticipate and/or order ahead of time. Tell your customer there may be a delay for that leather. I have a huge inventory but it's all called for...I don't deal in futurities (except lining leather and sole leather and insole leahter and leather for tongues on packers, etc.. .

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

DW,

Didn't I read somewhere on this forum that you use a spray gun to apply your finishes? What would be the difference in using a sponge or spraying the finish on? Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Back in the day...when I first started to use a finishing system, I seem to remember that applying with a spray gun was the only option. So I have a spray setup. But somewhere along the line the chemist at Prime Leather Finishes mentioned that a sponge system was available. Since I don't have a spray booth or any kind of ventilation for hazardous materials, I tried it. And that's what I've been using ever since.

Frankly, I think the sponge system I'm using now is preferable to the spray systems I used to get years ago--they always ended up too shiny. They made the leather look like plastic. But to be fair, you can choose from any number of "systems"--a system from Prime usually consists of three separate compounds that you apply sequentially--and some will be shinier than others. I used to get one that was supposed look like an Italian wax finish, for instance. I kind of liked that one and, in fact, that's what moved me away from really shiny finishes to more "natural" looking ones.

Bottom line, though, is that for me the sponge coat finishes were easier to apply.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Mack,

Are you just using something like Meltonian creme? Is there a brand name that I would recognize?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

All,

Kangaroo leather question. This is the first time I'll be working with roo. Just ordered the skin, drum stuffed from Sheridan. It's not here yet but I like to learn about this leather from down under before I start making costly mistakes.

How does the stretch run in the skin, along the spine or is it more a circular pattern? Any pointers where and how to cut the vamps and quarters for a derby boot? Any parts of the skin to avoid?

Any lasting issues I can expect? My sample has a firm hand so I may have to wet last this one.
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Rob

[artzend]

Rob,

The major thing to watch with roo is that often it is marked and stretching will show them in all their glory over the toe if you are not really picky about where you cut from. Roo is a wild animal and has a pretty hard life with fences and ticks and tree branches, etc.

Stretch with roo skin is the same as any other, i.e. cut "tight to toe" as usual.

I would not think that you need to even consider lasting it wet. It is not a very thick skin and is usually beautiful to last.

Obviously the belly will stretch more than the centre and vamps should be from the butt end. You could put the top of the quarter closer to the belly edge, keeping the best part of the skin for the bottom section where it joins the vamp.

It's great stuff to work with.

Tim

[relferink]

Thanks Tim,

That doesn't sound all that complicated. I'll take a close look at the skins or scratches and defects when I get them in. I opted for the veg tanned, it seems nice and strong as my customer is extremely tough on his boots. On the down side the I have a leather that is firmer and the customer has a caves foot with some good size hammer toes, the toe box is about two and a quarter inches deep. I know I can do it with a nice box calf, the roo will be a challenge. Just figure I may have to wet last but will try dry first.

Is all roo wild? I hear they make a good steak so I was wondering if they farm raise kangaroos.

Again thanks for the heads up.

Rob

[artzend]

Rob,

I didn't realise you were using veg tanned so you may need to wet it. I never used veg tanned except for ladies toe puffs.

You can't domesticate roos. They have very limited intelligence and just jump madly around if they are frightened. Fences just get jumped into. So do cars if they are near a road.

Good luck with it.

Tim

[relferink]

Tim,

That's a good idea to use for women's toe puff. It's nice an thin, yet firm.

This customer thew me quite the challenge, he's post polio who does not want to go back to wearing braces. He's a professional photographer and ocean sailor. Shoes need to offer good structural support, light weight, durable, easy to get on and off, anti slip for sailing and look good enough for him to wear with a suite when he needs to photograph a function.
So after some searching I decided to give roo a try. I received some samples of chrome tanned as well but found it quite soft and wasn't sure it would hold up well enough for him. I did let him know if he wanted hot pink boots chrome was the only option. Maybe he'll go for those for his next pair.
Ordered the leather today and will start the patterns soon. I'll keep you posted on my trials & tribulations.

Rob

[artzend]

Rob

If he is going to wear these boots sailing then veg tanned is probably the wrong sort of leather. It will soak up moisture and be able to be re-shaped once wet. Chrome would be a better choice I would think, and use a nice heavy goat or calf lining with side pieces if you think the leather isn't thick enough. It will certainly be strong enough.

Tim

[romango]

Robert,

I recently made a pair of dance shoes with the Sheridan veg roo. My theory was that the reputedly strong roo could take a lot of scuffing abuse and still look good.

This turns out to be true. I have kicked the dickens out of them and a light buff brings them right back to almost new.

They do have a characteristic pitting from hair follicles and other life experience, but I like it. Here is a close up after several grueling nights of tango.

7333.jpg

[relferink]

Tim & Rick,

Good point of caution on using veg tanned for a customer who spends time on the water. By his account spray is the most that can be expected and his old shoes are significantly worn down but show no signs of water damage per se.
The toe puff, counters and all structural elements will be man made or not effected by moister. Between the wax in the skin from the stuffing process and my instructions to the customer to apply water repellent on a regular basis to prevent permanent damage to the shoe I hope I'll be fine. The way I'm looking at this right now, the benefit of the firmer leather and the durability aspect out way the potential deforming issues but thanks for bringing it up, makes me re-think to make sure I'm on the right path before continuing.

Thanks for showing that picture of your roo shoes, is this the drum stuffed as well? I don't know how wild a night of tango gets but I do like how the leather looks after wear. My reasoning was the same, stand up to scuffing and other abuse and still look reasonable. The other element I considered was the weight, If the shoe gets to heavy it will hold down the customer too much. I didn't think I could find a skin that would be strong enough to take his abuse unless I went with a much heavier piece of leather.
Do you use regular shoe polish on these? I hate to advise people to use a silicone sprays, I was wondering if a wax would be better than polish on the drum stuffed leather? Does anybody have experience with that?

When I first started looking at the drum stuffed roo from Sheridan I understood it was a combination tanning but yesterday I was told it's a straight veg tanning. I'll have to do a burn test to the sample to find out.

Again many thanks for helping me out.

Rob

[romango]

Robert,

All I know is that it is veg tanned. If they had another veg variety, the topic did not come up. It's 1 mm thick.

BTW, I loved the way it handled when wet. It turned from a firm hand into butter and then firmed right up again dry.

I also got a chrome roo skin from them too. It is softer and the dye is a bit brighter. I haven't used it yet.

[j_johansen]

Robert,
When you order the drum stuffed from Sheridan make sure you tell them what it's for. This week I got a drum stuffed kangaroo hide from them that looked terrible, very splotchy and when I called them about it the comment was " O, you wanted to make boots with it?". Most of their customers use it for making lace! She said if they had known they could have picked for what I was doing.
J.

[artzend]

Rob,

Chrome tanned roo is really strong and takes a lot of beating. It doesn't matter how much you knock it around it just polishes up again and looks great. Roo is also incredibly strong and will take any abuse. I used to use Athletic Roo (a very flexible product) for my joggers and have been wearing them for a lot of years now. (No I don't wear shoes much, but I can't kill these ones and I give them a hard time).

Tim

[relferink]

All,

I think I may have misunderstood when I first spoke to them about this leather. I don't see evidence of chrome in my sample when burning it. I did mention that I was going to use it for shoes. Hope they send me a decent piece of leather, if not it will go right back. It's too expensive to have a non usable skin laying around.

Tim, is Athletic Roo a straight chrome tan? Is it a specific tanneries brand or does it have to do with the tanning recipe? I did look at samples of chrome tanned and found it beautifully soft. I am certainly planning on using it as it seems to be a very nice leather. For this specific customer I feel more comfortable going with the veg tan. I may be wrong on this but choose to err on the side of firmness and structure.
I feel a pair of chrome Roo coming on for myself as the ultimate test. The need to experiment may give me enough reason to finally make myself a pair again and the tax man lets me write off the cost for research & development. If that's not enough reason to try it...

Rob

[artzend]

Rob

As far as I know it is a straight chrome tan. It is too supple to have any veg I think. It is a flat finish that takes a polish really well. I know it because that is what the tannery here called it and apparently it goes to the States for the big sports companies for their shoes.

I loved the stuff, just watch for marks.

Tim