vamp leather question

[dw]

Tim, Terry,

Neither here nor there but I have also seen black that was red based...meaning that a red dye was presumably applied first.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Janne,

Yikes!! I'm not sure I want to go that far.

But I seem to have some memory that if the leather were swabbed or spritzed with water before dyeing (not enough to soak the leather, just enough to open up the grain surface) that the dye will penetrate better and even itself out.

I don't know what has gotten into me...maybe the imminent SS check that I will receive beginning in June...but this past month or so has been a very creative time for me. Especially with regard to tools and materials.

The more I think about English kip the more sanguine I get. At its best, it is a very strong leather and firm enough to gimp and brogue without risking distortion. It has a super smooth grain surface and I have no doubt that it will shine up marvelously. If the issues with dying can be resolved sufficiently to become a non-issue, think of the possibilities!

Parenthetically, East India kips were once once the basis for the original (and still champion) "waxed calf."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[athan_chilton]

Pertinent to this ongoing discussion...would someone offer a definition of 'crust' leather? I have heard of it, seen photos of shoes made with it...but don't really know what it is, except that it appears to be leather that has had its original color removed, to be replaced with color/s of your choice?? Thanks for any explanation!

[dearbone]

DW,

I found spray dyeing works well for dyeing veg tan leather,damping the leather with water is not a bad idea to prepare to increase the leather affinity to take the dye,There was/is a product for this purpose and it's called "Dressing spirit",I have no idea where to find it,I spray a first coat and rub the leather pieces with damp cloth and check if a second coat is needed and in most cases that proved to be the fact,wait for the first coat of dye to dry well before spraying the second. My two cents worth.

Nasser

[dw]

Athan,

As mentioned above, in this country "crust" can mean almost any unfinished leather...veg, chrome, retan.

In high end shoemaking circles, especially in Europe, "crust" is generally a veg tanned calf that has not been dyed or finished. There may be other characteristics that i am unaware of but that's a preliminary answer, at any rate.

That said, Janne's most welcome post notwithstanding, it is not, generally speaking, a leather that has had the dye or finished removed...it was never there to begin with.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Nasser,

Good point about spraying. You'd want to have a good spray booth and exhaust system, I suspect. I'm not sure that it's really worth the effort and hassle for relatively small pieces unless absolute uniformity is required. I am reluctant to go to those extremes without some initial experimentation, at any rate.

The dressing spirit sounds promising...I'll have to dig a little deeper into that. Thanks for the tip.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I see your point about indoor spraying,The spraying is best done outside, A sunny day will be a plus and a suitable mechanical spraying apparatus and a pair of gloves,Watch for the wind direction if you decide to spray.

Nasser

[tomo]

All,
There is no 'black', so they use other colours such as blue, green or red as a base for the black dye. That's why some times you see a black that looks as though it might be say navy (dark dark blue). Some saddles - Enlglish ones eg Stubben, will have a very noticeable green partina to the leather when they get worn.

Hence the reason Tim's suggestion to do a dark base colour first works so well.

More power to y'awl.
Tom.

PS. I use Methylated spirits to give the leather a wipe over before I dye it. This removes any surface grease or oil and helps even the surface colour up. If I do a big dye job like recolouring a saddle, I'll go over it first with a solvent that I get from the dye supplier. I think Fiebigs sell a leather degreaser too (but this isn't as hard core as the solvents).

You could use denurtured (sp?) alcohol, thta's basically what some of those shoe stretch products are.
T.

(Message edited by Tomo on February 08, 2011)

[janne_melkersson]

DW,
here is a photo that shows what I am talking about.

12821.jpg

Foster & Son are using chloride (I think that is the name for it in English?) when they take away the colour of the leather, at least they did some ten years ago. Unlike the veg tanned crust it is used on regular chrome tanned boxcalf leather that is aniline dyed.

I guess other stuff that is solvent could be used instead of chloride anything that take away the aniline and leave the leather kind og greyish and not make the leather hard will work. From that point you do the same as on veg crust leather.

(Message edited by janne melkersson on February 08, 2011)

[tomo]

Jan,
Do you mean Chlorine,
http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/cl.htm

My brother works with the stuff as a water filtration engineer, it's pretty strong stuff!
cheers
Tom

[janne_melkersson]

Tom,
yes Chlorine is the stuff. It's the same name in Swedish but with a K instead of the Ch,
Thanks
Janne

[lancepryor]

I think they use (chlorine) bleach, perhaps diluted with water to reduce its strength.

Lance

[tjburr]

DW,

I unfortunately did not take any notes on what dyes I used and it was about 18 years ago. The only thing I do remember was that the standard "RIT", from 18 years ago, was not that good. The book was copyrighted in 1980, so I imagine dye technology has changed. Unfortunately I have moved 3 times since then and when going to look for any notes, I was unsuccessful.

I however may try to reproduce some of the tests. I really liked the results at the time, though since then I did not have a considerable need for dying.

I know at the time I was attempting to find a blue and green specifically that I liked better than what I could accomplish normally; primarily the ability to look good after sitting in the sun and avoid the "graying" that occurs normally.

I originally made a whole bunch test swatches and put them through many tests; leaving in direct sunlight for months, wet/dry cycles, etc. If I remember I had one swatch that I left in the dark in a closed area and two others that I tried to inflict nature.

Another dye the book mentions is made by C.I.L.

Terry

[tjburr]

Interesting link on dyes...

www.pburch.net/dyeing/ineractive.shtml

Terry

[tomo]

I often use an airbrush for small jobs, especially if using spirit based dyes or I want to achieve a special effect.
I think Paul Krause does too.
The pigments that I use are great for finishing leather. They can be put on with a wet sponge but spray really well and are usually finished with a sealer and top coat.
Also some of the dyes are both spirit and/or water based.
As an aside, dye penetrates into the leather while 'pigment' sits on the surface. If I wanted to maximise a finish I would put dye on first then pigment, sealer and finally top coat.

T.

[paul]

Tom,

I don't have an airbrush, but I would like to to when I have the space (maybe soon).
The spray effects I've gotten in the past, particulaly on my sole bottoms, are from the "pigment" spray cans for leather. I've used other areosol spray set ups also, like the Preval Sprayer for over all spraying.

Otherwise it seems that your general methods for dying are the same as mine. No wonder we get along.

BTW, for those who want to try the steel wool method of dye removal and preparation, be sure to use really fine steel wool with a light hand. I'm not sure of the grading unit, but 0000 comes to mind. Degalzer is an effective stripper of the pigment coat and is sold by shoe repair finders. But sure to condition the leather well and often when finished.

Paul

[dw]

So...here's my first attempt at dyeing English kip. It's a bit rough but do-able, I think.

I started with some scraps I had in the bin...not even sure of its provenance. About two ounce. I wanted a light brown because I thought that that colour would be the hardest to achieve with any kind of grace or finesse--there needs to be a certain transparency in a light brown that is not required in a dark brown or black.

In the first photo you can see the original colour serving as a background for the shot of my dyed scrap pulled over the toe of the last. I shot the underside because the colour there is closest to what I got before antiquing the rest.

The second shot is the toe after treatment with lexol, burnishing with gum tragecanth, polishing with Leather Balm w/ Atom Wax, and applying a spitshine on the toe. In that order.

12834.jpg

12835.jpg

It's a little rough but I'm more or less making it up as I go along...with dyes, etc., that I have on hand. I'm confidant there's lots of room and possibility for improvement.

PS...on edit...some of the spitshining was done with a dark brown polish to deliberately antique the toe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on February 10, 2011)

[lancepryor]

DW:

Very interesting. I look forward to seeing how this moves along.

In terms of the dye, what did you use and how did you apply it Once you've mastered this, I hope you'll post a step-by-step guide.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Well, I did it all by hand and I am fairly confident that it can be done reasonably well on small pieces without a spray gun.

What I did was make up diluted solutions of dye...a weak yellow dye (for luminosity), a weak light brown dye and a bit stronger light brown dye. I used wood (?) alcohol but I suppose Johnny Walker Red would work (it's not good for much else ).

I dyed with a sponge brush and was liberal. Front and back. The yellow dye first. The alcohol saturates the leather and subsequent solutions spread through the fibers so fast that dark spots are almost impossible to create. When done with all solutions, I saw no obvious "overlapping."

When it was dry I pulled it over the last.

Then I made a mistake. I had been fooling with the idea of "hand plating" (not that the kip needs it), so I wet the leather with water and began to rub/burnish it with a bone. At a certain point burnishing the damp leather will cause it to get dark.

Later I realized that burnishing with gum dragon alone would work just as well and not create those kinds of problems. I also realized that I had failed to re-condition the leather after it had dried and needed to include that step in my procedure to account for whatever effect that the Lexol would bring to the process.

Nevertheless, the basic outline is there. If I can get this far, this well, stumbling all the way, I feel hopeful that it can be done to a "professional" standard.

BTW, I got some 3.5-4 ounce English kip in as a sample today and I began another experiment to see if it was thick enough and strong enough to round close...split and lift. I haven't begun to stitch but it is certainly thick enough to hole with no fear of tearing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tomo]

Hey DW why not try chewin' tobacco on that spit shine? Chris La Doux swore by it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XAsSHfrW3I&feature=related

Nice job. What you're really doing is burnishing the Kip like when you set an edge. And making it up as you go works good with that stuff. Probably using spirit based dyes is harder to control than creames, when the dye strikes it takes no prisoners so often I'll antique over the top and it achieves a finish similar to your's

Often I'll apply a darker colour around the borders and fade it into the centre. This really highlights the form. Years ago in the '70's I worked with some hippie dudes and they were seriously good at finishing leather.

I was serious about the tobacco too BTW.

More power to y'awl
Tom.

[dw]

Tom,

"Strike!" That's the word I was looking for! Thank you.

The diluted solutions...especially the first one which is more alcohol than dye...so permeate the leather that it prevents the subsequent solutions from striking. That was, I think, the breakthrough realization for me. I just hope it holds true and that subsequent re-conditioning will ameliorate the effects of the alcohol.

Re: chewing tobacco...interesting. I've never chewed but I did learn to spitshine in the service. I can put a shallow spitshine on a shoe in less than ten minutes.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[holly]

Hello.
I'm looking to make some (hopefully)simple flats like these from ostrich leg.

13742.jpg

Anything you could tell me about working with ostrich leg will be more than I know. I am particularly intimidated by how to handle the larger plates/scales at the visible edges. I am guessing that I must avoid these plates at the lasting edges? This is probably a too big question, but any information is helpful.
Thanks!
Holly

[paul]

Holly,
Maybe it is a too big question, but you could simply do a french turned edge with matching roo, sewn on right sides together, turned over and stitched under your lining. Try a test.
Paul

[holly]

Ooh, that sounds scary...but fun.

I have a million different but-what-will-happen-if questions, but just trying it is probably the best answer to all of them.

Thanks.

[1947redhed]

My two cents on ostrich for those pictured flats:
The bumps and ridges on the skins will be a challenge for the thin anklestraps and the runner
strip covering the insole board. So, you may want to make those parts out of matching or contrasting smooth leather like kangeroo or kid.
Georgene