vamp leather question

[cwsaddler]

DW you might look at the shell cordovan shoes from Alden for some clues on edges. I have a pair and some edges are unfinished and others colud be turned or have a bead put in. Remember that cordovan does not breathe.

JimK

[dearbone]

DW,

For certain leather which folding the top line and facing are not easily done,like on snake skins,lizards,etc, A strip of 10cm wide fold-able matching leather can be used.just a suggestion,Here is a picture i found,In this shoe the leather was fold-able,but the customer wanted made this way.

11048.jpg

[dw]

All,

Well, I talked to Skip Horween today and he graciously gave me some pointers and sent some sketches. Working off those sketches I thought I would share the information I got from him.

We had some connection problems and I completely forgot to ask about turning the edges but here is what I did get:

The straight edge is indeed at the backbone...or near enough. The best, smoothest, and thinnest leather is where it wraps around the back of the leg.

So vamps should be cut as you see in the following diagram--of primary importance is cutting parallel to the backbone and tucking the toe into the best leather. I guess you could slide the vamp closer or further from the straight edge:

11050.png

That's what Skip advised although he did say that vamps can be cut just about anywhere and any direction you want.

He also said that the biggest issue with "nap" is that if all pieces are not cut in the same direction, pieces cut at odd angles will often appear to be a different colour because the nap causes the leather to reflect light differently.

Said Shell doesn't mind water, hates heat. Last with some moisture. Apply polish sparingly.

I'm still a couple of months away from cutting...waiting on a last...and will probably email Skip or call him again to get the skinny on folding but the more I see of it I think it might indeed be better to skant skive, dye, and burnish the edges (works great with black but what dye will match whiskey?)

Hope this helps...I thank those who responded--at least it got me off my duff and prompted me to call the source.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Great info!

Humm, matching whiskey?
How about Feibings British Tan?

[romango]

DW,

In your post above

You mention

Waterhouse leathers is just introducing this new aniline dyed veg tan calf

Have you tried this leather yet? If so, what is your opinion?

Thanks, Rick

[dw]

Rick,

I have tried the leather and I like it. Only intermediate versions, however. On those, sometimes the finish has been kind of iffy--needing "plating."

The most recent iteration (I've seen samples) is a definite improvement. Nice hand, nice finish, nice weight.

That said, I have to backtrack a bit and tell you that a burn test reveals greenish-blue ash...on all samples. So rather than a full veg it is a re-tan. Still pretty nice for shoes, IMPO.

Peter has been trying hard to get this deal firmed up...I think he might be on summer lock-down right about now, however.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[luckyduck]

I didn't find a section this question fit into very well, so it goes in the vamp section for now.

Making 4 piece western boots I have issues with making the tongue work out on my vamp leather.

I am using Hartke calf. It is moderatedly firm and has the waxy finish on it.

The issue is that I can't seem to get the tongue cut properly and it leaves a little bubble on top of the instep.

Here is a picture of the last pair with an arrow pointing to the bubble. This one is difficult to see since they have been worn, but it has been there on every pair I've done.

11582.jpg

This is how I cut the vamps. After crimping I used the quarter template.

11583.jpg

Then the trouble starts. As shown below, the small template will not lay flat and match up to the sides at the same time. The center fold has to be past the top of the template to get the edges to line up. DW posted a picture similar to this a while back and after repeated tries on different leathers, I can't figure it out.

11584.jpg

Here is the vamp set back on the crimping board to show how it was on there.

11585.jpg

Any thoughts on what I am missing would be most welcome.

Thanks

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

First, in the third photo, with the red arrows, the vamp needs to be "cocked" upward more and the curves of the tongue template need to match the quarter curves that you cut with the quarter curve template (in the second photo).

Those red arrows should push the vamp leather inward such that you don't see any leather at the curves of the tongue cutting template.

Beyond that you have the tongue cutting template set right, it doesn't need to go higher nor much, if any, lower--only to get the curves to line up with the quarter curve of the leather.

I don't know if this is making any sense but even as you have it pictured the curves of the vamp will match up with the curves at the sides of the tongue cutting template...IF...you simply pull the toe of the vamp higher and hold the sides of the vamp closer together--the quarter curves will come inward.

If you take the vamp off the board and do not open it up any further than it is when it comes off the board that's how it should be sitting in photo #3. Yes, the tongue area has to flatten some; yes, the area immediately adjacent tot eh quarter curve has to flatten out on the table, but the main "foot area" of the vamp should not flatten out or spread apart anymore than you can help it--the closer to the original, off-the-board configuration you can maintain the better.

If this doesn't makes sense,m I'll try to explain it again...and/or you can bring your crimped vamps and templates to Delavan and I'll walk you through it.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Paul,
Paul here!

When I first saw your querry, I thought, "Oh goody, avoidance behavior".

Actually, I'm with DW, afterall it's his system.

I'll affirm that your tongue looks to be spread too wide. I think you'd get the results you're after, if you bring the sides of your quarter curve in to match your template. And then cut the tongue.
I think what will happen, is that the vamp will lay down better on the instep of the last and there will be more slack to fit the cone.

Here's the thing. One of the features that makes the tongue template crytical(when combined with the quarter curve template for the first cut), is the proscribed distance between the inside edges of the quater curves.

Think about it; the distance between those two edges is part and parcial of the Short Heel measurement, as reflected on the boot. You'll see it as soon as you look at the side of your boot.

So the fold needs to be raised up between the tongue template's arch, until your cut edges line up with the templates edges.
I've outlined my tongue on my cutting board. So then I just rubber cement along the tongue and curve of the crimpt vamp, being careful to line it up with the curve of the drawing, then outline and make the rest of my tongue cut.

And this fact allows you to make minor corrections from your fitter. If you need to adjust the entry of the boot which otherwise fits in the instep(and Long Heel).

After I realized this, I began to "feel comfortable playing in the field of creative tongues".

I hope that helps.
Paul

(Message edited by paul on August 25, 2010)

[luckyduck]

Hey Paul and DW,

Thanks for the info.

I can see what the goal is, and my last try since reading your posts is better. It seems to take a lot more persuading the leather flat under the top of the tongue pattern (above the cut out) than it seemed like it would.

Anway, I'll definitely bring some in process boots to Delevan. Along with a wee dram of Rye and some shoe adventure stories that are not quite appropriate on the forum.

Paul

[luckyduck]

DW & Paul,

Figured out what the problem was. With the stiffer leather, I did not get the fold all the way flattened out when using the quarter template.

The extra material in the "not flat" fold caused the quarter curve to be several mm wider than it was when it is flattened all the way. The extra width at this cut made the fine cut difficult to match to the template.

Thanks again, because doing this correctly makes the directions on aligning the vamp with the top make a lot more sense.


Paul

[dw]

Paul,

One of the things I do is to draw a dotted line with silver pen down the center of the "fold"--the blade edge of the blocker. Just from the tip of the tongue area to the throat area.

Using my templates and my system, I then measure 9/8" (inch and an eighth) from that center line around to the side of the blocker. I mark that distance in half a dozen closely space places.

It is along these marks that I align the curve of the quarter cutting template.

Doing it this way ensures that the tongue is always cut the same width regardless of how thick or thin the leather is or how proud the fold.

Increasing or decreasing the distance from the centerline makes a difference as to how far the vamps will settle down onto the cone of the last...especially if placing the tongue in the same position on the tops as when using the standard width. Right there you have a ready technique to alter the lean of the tops, the closeness and cupping of the heel stiffener, and the smoothness of your boot in the throat area.

While "treeing" can have a salutary effect, experimenting with wider or narrower tongues would probably get rid of that "bubble" you are concerned about, before the boots even get to the trees.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[luckyduck]

Thanks DW,

That makes total sense to me now. I can see that my mistake led to the little bubble that just would not pull out when lasting and how you could change that on purpose to give a different fit. That extra 4-5mm extra tongue width was the culprit.

Thanks again.

Paul

[dw]

All,

I recently ran across the notion of using English kip...in lieu of crust...as a vamping leather for men's shoes. Especially since crust...calf crust...is almost non-existent in the States.

The leather has to be dyed, of course, but so does crust. Which is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But I am kind of interested in playing with this approach.

I think that English Kip would be exceptionally smooth grained without being plastic looking...something that I would gravitate towards almost as a primary consideration. The leather itself would be veg tanned and firm, generally very good quality and could be polished to a fare-thee-well.

So...anyone tried this?

Al? Lance? Rob? Jon, Mack? Anyone?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

I'm interested in a crust substitute too. Where can you get the English kip in the US?

[dw]

Frankford has it and I think Seigel of California carries it. Stevenson-Paxton used to carry it too I wonder if Matt has it at Maverick?

I'm looking for it in a 3.5-4 ounce which may not be available anywhere.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Rick,

I called Frankford today and although they carry a 2.5 ounce English kip, they indicated that they were primarily finders for shoe repair products and didn't wish to look into a 3-4 ounce weight...which is what I would be most interested in.

I haven't called Seigel...still looking.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Newsflash!

Just talked to Peter at Waterhouse. He has or can get English kip in the heavier weights. Yay!!

He told me something interesting...he said English kip was 20% tighter grained and denser on the grain surface than any other veg tanned bovine calf. Said it was a little tricky to dye for that very reason--needed patience, that's all.

I shouldn't get excited too early in the game but this might be the breakthrough I've been looking for.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

I look forward to seeing how this works out. Out of curiosity, how would you plan on dying the leather? I've tried to dye lighter leathers with Fiebings dyes, but I can never get a consistent, non-streaky result.

The crust I have is a light brown and can be finished with just shoe cream and/or polish -- it doesn't need dyes to achieve a mid-brown result. Also, if memory serves, the fold at E Green seemed to just use polishes and dyes to finish their crust leather. OTOH, the continental bespoke makers do seem to use more in the way of dyes to achieve their huge range of finished colors.

Obviously,the off-white kips would need some sort of dye to get to a range of brown tones. Perhaps the difference between crust and kips is in the tanning, but my impression is that the crust does have dye introduced somewhere in the process.

On a different note, has Peter gotten his plated (?) black veg tan in? IIRC, at the AGM you said he was trying to get the black to show alot less surface variation than on the leather in your black oxfords.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

I think Fiebings dyes would do it but Prime Leather finishes offers an aniline dye that is significantly more powerful than the Fiebings.

That said, I think several applications of Fiebings with a large shearling dauber would be adequate. I suspect that any inconsistency of colour, as long as it is not too egregious, would only add to the interest of the leather. Good aniline dyed kangaroo, for instance, always has a bit of variable tone which ultimately adds to the "depth" that is so characteristic of aniline dyed leather.

What's more, finishing, polishing, waxing and antiquing will go a long way to making such variations "of a piece," as who should say, if not moot altogether.

I admit, I have never handled or even seen the kind of crust being used by the premier makers in Europe (in the States "crust" can be almost anything, including chrome tans such as "pearl cow." ). But I have been told that the European crust is fundamentally an undyed, vegetable calf. How could you achieve a midnight green, for instance (which looks fabulous to my eyes), or a deep scarlet or even a navy if the base leather is brown?

In any case, I suspect that the dye problem would be most significant with light browns, etc.. Dk. brown or black should be easy-peasy. But if the lighter colours became problematic, it seems to me that if cut pieces were dyed, rather than hides or portions of hides, it wouldn't be all that much trouble or expense to fill a shallow cookie tin with dye and immerse the vamps, etc.. Just speculation that.

As for the black veg tan from Waterhouse...I can't speak for Peter but I can say that it looks to be a way off. I buy a number of products from Peter (he has the English kip in stock, BTW) but he is not getting a whole lot of cooperation from the tanneries he was working with to develop that leather. As an illustration of that point, he set out to develop a veg calf and several tanneries, more or less arbitrarily, sent chrome or retans instead. It wasn't until I burnt some scraps that he knew of it. As far as I know he still hasn't got that issue resolved and may never...no fault of his own.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mmboots]

DW,

I would like in on this. So when talking to Peter make sure he gets enough. I've contacted two other suppliers and waiting word from them if we can get both the English and cust leather and lining from them.

Thanks

Mike

[tjburr]

I thought I would make a comment on dying.

At one time I was interested in forming leather and my wife bought me a book called "Leather in Three Dimensions" by Rex Lingwood. In this book they mentioned using various fabric dyes to achieve better control of the dying process.

At that time I tried one of the dyes they mentioned from Pylam Dye Company. On looking at the internet it looks like this can only be bought in quantity now [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

I also tried various other dyes, some working really good like the Pylam, and some not so good.

The nice thing was that many of the dies I could either mix to be alcohol based, water based or sometimes in an oil or cream. The nice thing was the water based did not dry out the leather like the alcohol based dyes.

What I particularly liked was 1) I could totally control the concentration, 2) I could control the base in some cases alcohol/water/oil, and 3) the dye was dirt cheap. Given the dirt cheap and being able to use water based and hence not worried about the bad alcohol effects, I even worked with dying in a bucket and dipping, getting more saturation.

The main differences I saw with the different dyes I tried were resistance to fading in the sun and the vibrancy of color.

I also found it much harder to get a good black, but had a wide selection of other colors and could easily mix to achieve any color.


Terry

[artzend]

Terrry

Al Stohlman's book (one of them) said to put a layer of blue down before dying black. This works well.

Tim

[dw]

Terry,

So what were the dyes that worked nearly as good as the Pylam?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

DW,
there is a way to make your "own" crust leather. I am not sure if I have mentioned it already here or not but you can do it two ways either using the stuff you clean the toilet with or the finnest carpenters steel wool to rubb away the aniline surface of the grain. The cleaning stuff is a mess and it is a risk that the leather gets hard if to much water is used. I have only made some tests using the steel wool but it looks quite good too.

(Message edited by janne melkersson on February 08, 2011)