Throat measurment

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Re: Throat measurment

#26 Post by jake »

D.W.,

Here's my results with your "test tube" experiment.

My short heel measurement is 12 3/4". I cut a piece of firm 4/5 oz. french calf 12" x 13 1/4". Folded and sewed a line 1/4" from margin, thus giving me an inside diameter of 12 3/4" (theoretically). Here's the results.

This is what I started with:
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I'm just starting to pull my foot into the tube with some resistance.
2066.jpg


With a considerable amount of work, here's my toes coming out the other end. Taking it off was a chore! I didn't dare sew it down any further because I didn't have help at the shop. But here's the kicker folks, I make boots with the throat cut down an additional 1/2" (SH-1/2" divided by 4). So the throat of my boots are roughly 12 1/4"........go figure!
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Re: Throat measurment

#27 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

First photograph: My left foot and shin fully extended, with line drawn is where the SH was taken dangling moments before. I can get my toes down too, but there's still lots of air-space from the shin to the instep. Note that in this posture my SH line is not straight across.

#2: "Test Tube" of 6oz. firm veg, grain-in, made exactly 1/2 net SH--and way too easy to pass through, so I sewed-off another 1/4" [SH minus 1/2"]

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Re: Throat measurment

#28 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

#3--Here an additional 1/4" has been sewed off, reducing the tube now to SH minus 1". It's still no big trouble to push through. I drew a dot where the instep bump is, and the heel behind, and connected these points to show where the bind line is more clearly. Tube still has loose material between the shin and instep bump, even over the SH point in front.

#4--About 5" up from the bottom I sewed off another 1/4" [1/2" reduction], and blended this seam into the existing one to emulate the neck-down at the ankle of a boot, and the fit finally became what I might call snug, but I could still force my foot through.
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Re: Throat measurment

#29 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

#5--Final seams, with areas of loose volume indicated. The minimum dimension at the very bottom is 11 1/2"--my dangling SH is 13 1/4".

#6--Test Tube laid out flat so you can better see the multiple seams and marks. I went over the first row in black pen to show where I started.

What does this tell us? My foot and shin obviously don't go anywhere near as straight as DW's or the gals', yet I can pull on this test tube sewed 1" less than my net SH without any trouble, and even neck-in the last 5", tapering another 1/2", and still force through. I bet if it was a real boot, and I could stand up and stamp my foot that last inch or so, I might even get through 11". What was it Rees said: "I've known men who could get on a boot that was 2 inches less than their heel measure..."????

Anyway, I used the SH as the guide straight across, and found it too generous for my taste, but I found the "bind" to occur on the diagonal like Swaysland and Plucknett show--in the *direction* of the long-heel measure, and obviously the LH girth--but at the angle shown in the photos. I'll see what relation my SH applied at an angle gives me to the finished "Test Tube".
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Re: Throat measurment

#30 Post by dw »

Al,

Great photos! And, I can see that a lot of work and thought went in to them.

At the risk of seeming to be hastily contrary, I have some preliminary comments...

First, your short heel looks about a half inch low, at least as I define and measure the SH. Are you sure your sock didn't pull down when you pointed your toe? On my foot at least, there is a hollow on either side of the tendon which runs from the shin to the instep. I take the SH across that hollow. On my foot, that would put the SH significantly higher on the foot that you have depicted.

Second, your diagonal bind looks spurious to my eye, I'm sorry to say. The rear end spot is located on slack leather. How can there be a bind between loose leather and a spot where the leather is taut? This is why I say the "geometry is not there. You clearly cannot have a bind from loose leather to tight leather. Look at the altered photo (my apologies) below. I see slack leather from the starting point of your diagonal straight across the tube and ending with more slack leather. Where's the bind? On the other hand at the corner of the heel to the front of the instep (where you've marked the end point of your diagonal ) the leather is taut, taut, taut. Surely we can agree that where the leather is taut there is a bind?

And perhaps significantly (or perhaps a trick of the lighting) the top of the "test tube" seems to be yielding leather to the heel...further emphasizing the lack of bind in that loose area where your diagonal starts.
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Re: Throat measurment

#31 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

DW,

Thanks. Glad they came out okay. First, I double-checked the SH line drawn on the stocking carefully before I stretched anything out of place. It was correctly positioned when dangling--the shortest girth IOW--and I feel not far off once fully extended, but changing the foot's position in this case will change the locations a bit. Let's assume for the test it was taken where you'd take it, still on the foot, not riding up the shin tendon.

You missed on my bind-line. I drew line that on several photos back [# 3], only to show where the *first* feeling of tightness happened, i.e., in the long-heel dimension. It just happens it was still on the tube in later shots, like # 6, you drew on [which is fine by me], where it ends up in slack spots, which is confusing, sorry. That line is *only* relevant to photo #3 really, because in the later shots the foot's moved past it.

Your red line with arrows and dots might be the SH on your foot, but the heel end of the line is too low on my heel, and the front is too high on my instep [shin?]. I'd refer you up to # 1. My SH line will not go straight across the tube. What is more, the tube cut and sewed to my net SH gith is too easy to pass through anyway. You might say my SH girth was not taken high enough, or the tape not pulled tight enough, but in the end I could get through a roughly 11" opening, and no matter how you take it, you'd never get 11" off my foot's SH, no matter how you placed the tape.

Likewise, even going by your red lines, where is the SH girth of my foot presenting itself as a line of tesion straight across the tube? It's not. Even your arrow-dot line would end up on loose leather at the front position, because the only line of tesion across the tube is in the direction of the long-heel line, at a diagonalImage
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Re: Throat measurment

#32 Post by dw »

Al,

OK. I see that I chose the wrong photo to illustrate my point. I apologize for that...I wanted to work with a photo that had all the "slack" and other data that you marked on it.

But let's look at #3 again. What makes your diagonal the right one, if indeed the foot is binding on a diagonal? Why not from the shin to the heel? [the green line] This is a "taut" line, too, isn't it? Or how about from heel to the toe (or there abouts) [the yellow line]...again, this just as convincing a diagonal bind, in my mind, as from heel to instep. And it comes *before* the heel to instep line. Why are either of these not equally valid.? Is it perhaps, because of the slack leather perpendicular to the points of "bind" [the purple and blue lines]?

My assertion is that here can never be a bind as long as there is *any* degree of slack perpendicular to either of the end points of a presumed line of bind.

In my mind, the only place the foot can bind up in a flexible cylinder is perpendicular to the walls of that cylinder. Even in a stout cardboard cylinder, the real point of bind *has* to be perpendicular to the walls of the cylinder...and while it may seem that the bind is on a diagonal, it is really a function of the distance from the leading end point (in this case, let's assume the middle cuneiform) **across** the cylinder, exceeding the inside diameter of the cylinder. You see what I'm saying? In the case of a flexible cylinder, the shape of the foot combine with that self-same flexibility to fix the bind at or very near the short heel. Because once again the bind has to be perpendicular to the walls of the cylinder and the leather will move and "give' on either side...as with the purple and blue lines in the photo.

In the end it doesn't make any difference, I guess. You're seeing one thing and I'm seeing another. And you can certainly devise a way to use some diagonal (arbitrary as it might be) to draft a standard. I've never doubted that. It's just that i don't see how it makes mechanical sense. the geometry isn't there. Image
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Re: Throat measurment

#33 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

DW,

Not to hash this out beyond the above, but let's look at your cool color lines a minute. If you look at your blue line, and your red line, crossed by my black line, you've just about got the same diagram Rees, Swaysland, and Plucknett all show for calculating the pass-line [my black line is the pass-line]. Your green and purple lines matter naught, as the bootleg, in an actual boot, up there is as big as the calf. Your yellow line to the toes, likewise is non est, because in a boot the toes of the foot have entered the vamp by then, so the *only* usable geometric diagram we're left with, is where we started Image

You are focused on your red line for cutting legs, right? On my foot the cylinder is not even in contact at the front position, on your red line, only from heel bulge to the big black dot. See #5 above: the *only* time the cylinder got so tight as to even touch my SH point in front, I had sewed off so much leather that it was no longer the SH girth across your red line. What's that say? Cut the leg SH minus 1" at the height of the red line?

Without drawing, imagine a rather flattened "V" shaped object [the shin and foot]trying to slide through a rigid [if you like] cylinder such as "=". The only points of contact are either side of the apex of the "V", never right at the apex.
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Re: Throat measurment

#34 Post by admin »

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Re: Throat measurment

#35 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Need clarification! Regarding throat measurement of the shoe vs. joint measurement of the foot...Where is the throat of the shoe in relationship to the joint of the foot? It seems like they would be in the same place, or very close. However, if the girth of last should be 1/4" smaller than the joint measurement, I am confused by what I am reading in the Professional Shoe Fitting Manual, which says that in low heeled tie shoes, you should be able to fit a finger under the throat of the shoe to allow for forward motion of the foot when going through a stride. I have also read that the throat is located at the top end of the toes, which seems like it would be the joint. So 1/4" smaller than the joint girth measurement, and being able to fit a finger under the throat of the shoe seem mutually exclusive! Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.
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Re: Throat measurment

#36 Post by btippit »

Jenny,

I just read some of the older postings on this thread for the first time and prefer not to comment on those lest sleeping dogs be awakened. So I'm hoping your question relates to your current situation only. In fact I can't add a lot there either. In last making, the throat opening is the girth ROUGHLY around the top line of a pump or other non-adjustable, net fit shoe. It is taken from the point on the back of the heel where the top of the shoe would be (quarter mark in our lingo) around the sides of the last to the center of the ball girth at the base of the cone. This measurement is virtually impossible to take manually in one swipe unless you use a string and tack it on the last so typically we measure one side, then the other and add the two together.

I'm not sure why you say the ball girth of a last should be 1/4" smaller than the foot. Most of my custom makers use net measurements though some will go slightly under, but to my knowledge, not 1/4". On the other hand, Lucchese lasts measure about 1/8" to 3/16" smaller than Tony Lama lasts on the ball and Justin lasts are even bigger than Lama's so as usual, there are lots of recipes to cook the same meal. It's just that some of the "meals" taste better than others.

Hope this helps or at least doesn't complicate things.

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Re: Throat measurment

#37 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Bill,

Is the throat measurement of the last usually bigger than the measurement of the same place on the foot? If so, how much is typical? Thanks.
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Re: Throat measurment

#38 Post by btippit »

Jenny,

No maker has ever asked me for a specific throat opening measurement and in production last model making it is only used as a checkpoint for grading sizes and widths. In other words, we never had a "standard" measurement for the throat opening on a given size (or at least I never heard of one). Due to the arbitrary nature of it's location (quarter mark to ball girth center), I'm not sure such a standard could be established.

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Re: Throat measurment

#39 Post by jesselee »

Great topic. Having made Civil War boots since 64 and examined many originals (collected them for years) I always tried them on if the foot looked big enough.

I do my measurements standing on full weight, I have that formula down re. fleshy/boney foot. I do my SH dangling. The throat of CW period boots and 1800's cowboy boots is very narrow if you look at examples.

I am 13 3/4 standing full weight for LH measurement and 13 SH dangling. I make my boots at 13 inches to the throat. This gives me the proper lines of an 1800's boot and it looks impossible to get into, but has that nice tug and pop when the foot goes in. Then again my genre is to replicate as exactly as I can, the boots of the period.

Hope this is of some value.
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Re: Throat measurment

#40 Post by tmattimore »

Just a question to throw up agin de wall. I am starting to do english riding boots but since most of my work is mail order I have to rely on the client to take his own measure. The problem is I routinely get people with 9.5 or 10 feet who tell me their SH is 15 inches. I have measured a few big feet in my day but have never seen a 15" SH even on size 15's. Has any one ever seen a 15" sh?
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Re: Throat measurment

#41 Post by dw »

Tom,

Maybe once...when I was making a boot for a customer with a size 11H foot.

But you are preaching for the choir when you talk about customer's measurements. Sam Luchesse had the same problem, if I recall correctly.

There comes a point, if you are doing mail order, when you simply have to throw out the measurements provided by the customer and go with your instincts.

I had a customer recently who got measured up by a saddlemaker who was reading my measuring packet information. Now I know my info is as clear as clear can be...much of it paraphrases the measuring instructions of older, well established firms. But for some reason, the measurements were way off--like 6 inches for a high instep girth on a size nine foot!! All the girths were like that...about 30% too small.

So I just went with an "educated guess" and ended up right on the money on most of them. Talking to the customer, later, it turns out the saddlemaker had measured the foot, while standing, from the floor to the floor (never extending the tape under the foot! What good is that?

Anyway, it's a lesson...especially if you are doing mail order...you almost have to do a fitter's model to have any hope of really fitting the customer.

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Re: Throat measurment

#42 Post by tmattimore »

I have made numerous call backs to people to get them to remeasure it just gets a little frustrating. I also get ball measure's of 5 inches and high insteps of 7.5 I may go to a photograph of how to take the measure.
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Re: Throat measurment

#43 Post by jesselee »

Tom, DW

That 6" instep type measurement is based on a foot tracing from one side to another. As opposed to measuring completely around the foot. I have seen this in old measuring systems. It's a good system if you have an accurate tracing, experience is a second guess. But as in how a foot is proportioned to the body (I ask height, weight, bony, fat etc. of the person) it's easy to get.
As for throat size, thats a matter of what a customer is used to, and heel measurement (preaching to the choir here). Mine is 13 1/2", and I make my throat 13" if 4/5 oak tanned leather, and 12 3/4" if 2 layers of 2 oz. calf (circa 1890) for a tight fit. This means that you have to really pull the boots on and off and the foot 'pop's in. It really depends on how you can point your toes. I have tried on cowboy boots, well made that my foot slips in easily, would not give a dime for 'em. Too much heel slippage..

My 2 centsImage

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Re: Throat measurment

#44 Post by big_larry »

Heel slippage, Even though I am pretty new to the craft, I am concirned about heel slippage. I would like to get opinions about an article written in the July 1999 page 44 issue of harness shop news. The author is James Clayton of Amarillo, Texas, if I may.

"Another boot maker wa transfered to this unit and he seems amazed at a few of the things I've had to dream up on my own. I borrowed one of his lasts and noticed that he had not altered the HEEL any. I ask him if I could do it to his last and then I explained why. Early in my bootmaking work I ran into a problem of the customer's heels not staying in the boots very well. I then studied the contour of the heel of the last and decided that the way tit was shaped was the cause of the problem. The back of the last just didn't force the counter to make a pocket for the heel to sit in.

Here is how I fixed that: on the back of a new last I make a mark 1/4" in from the back. I then use a grinder and grind off a pie shaped taper about 2/3's of the way down the heel. This makes a better hole for your heel in the counter and it stops slipping."

I am making a bunch of "Packers" right now and the laces give the wearer some lattitude to tighten up the heel to arch fit. The wastern or full wellington boot does not have this option. I wear a pair of boots I made for myself and at the end of the day I have indent marks because they fit tight where it needs to, to hold my foot in the heel pocket.

It is my intention to try this alteration on my personal last and see if I can improve this heel fit. Even the "packer" is bothersom to sew the back up withe the ankel curve cut into the leather. I am wondering if the back could be cst straight like the masss production boots are cut by employing this modifying last cut?

I openly admitt to tearing several used packer and western boots apart to see what the "big boys' were doing. I am not going to mention the brand names, however, I am not impressed with their staples and injection welting.

Just in case Bill Tippits ever reads this little note, I in no way mean to show any disrespect of his ability as a last maker. In my book he is #1. I feel like I am preaching to the master from the position of a first quarter apprentice. Please forgive me if anyone is offended.

I am hopeing that some of you more experienced boot makers will give your oppinion about altering the heel top of the last.

Thank you, Larry Peterson
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Re: Throat measurment

#45 Post by tmattimore »

IMHO and just from experience I think that it might turn heel slippage into heel blisters. I would rather build up a narrower last then grind one down. All the factory cutting dies I have for lace ups have a defined heel curve to them. Are you zig zaging the back seam? Another device I use is if you have a 5/8 lasting allowance try cuting a notch about 3/8 up from the bottom and about 1/2 in from the edge. It geatly reduces the bulk in the heel and makes it easier to flatten the seam.
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Re: Throat measurment

#46 Post by big_larry »

Tom, I will try using a narrower heel. Thanks for the cutting tip.

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Re: Throat measurment

#47 Post by dw »

In my experience, I think that cutting (or remodeling) the heel not only disrespects both the lastmaker and the foot, but misses the whole point. If the foot is fit correctly--with the right last--and the short heel and long heel from the foot are exactly identical to the short heel and long heel on the last, slippage will be minimal.

Tom has it right...you are asking for blisters and other foot prioblems, not to mention putting a strain to the top eedge of the counter as the foot enters the boot, that will eventually break the counter down.

Beyond, that, a counter/heel stiffener pattern that makes an allowance for the difference in circumferance of the last around the comb (heel area of the last) at say, half inch above the featherline and again at two inches above the featherline, can create a counter that actually "wants" to hug the back of the last rather than one that just sits there.

Then too, it should be understood that, despite the mythology, there should be some slight slippage in the heel of a boot intially. If there isn't, then the boot is either too tight (risking blisters) or the boot has been made with very poor quality materials.

Think about this...there is nearly a half an inch of stiff (hopefully) somewhat hardened (by pounding) of sole leather under the foot. Until that leather flexes sufficiently to become a little more "willing" it is going to naturally resist bending. And what happens when the foot bends but the sole does not want to? Why, the foot will tend to come up inside the boot a little...especially if the boot breaks low on the foot or is a little loose over the instep.

All of which brings us back around to a correct fit, repecting the heel width on the foot and the short and long heel. Not to mention why I prefer the "high break" of the "Northern plains" style to the border style.

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Re: Throat measurment

#48 Post by dw »

BTW,

I make packers...everything from "derby" style open tab boots to balmorals, and even an occasional open tab "shoe" boot--low quarters really--and I use a flat, unformed counter, that is sewn into the boot the same way it is sewn into a wellington style pull-on, and believe it or not, get just as much cupping in the heel as I would with a heel pocket and a preformed counter. This is patterning and fitting. Nothing else. No...I take that back it also depends on lasting techniques.

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Re: Throat measurment

#49 Post by big_larry »

D.W. and Tom,

I see what you are saying. I personally like the feel of a leather counter and it makes sense that a "breaking in" will help create the holding capacity, especially after the boot learns to bend with the step.

I use foam and plaster casting of each foot in addition to careful measuring. I am also using a pedograph to observe where the weight is concentrated. This information is "gold." Thank you both for the assistance.

While I am in communication, I would like to add another question, and then I will give way to others to discuss these or other issues.

I have been dampening the counter after the sewing and assembling is complete. I then hold it around the heel of the last and give it a mild tapping. My hope is to get rid of any little wrinkles that might want to raise up while bending the counter. I can see the results prior to lasting by doing this and if I need to tap a little more I can do it without taking anything appart. Does this seem acceptable to you?

With much appreciation,

Your friend, Larry Peterson
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Re: Throat measurment

#50 Post by tmattimore »

I do the same the more curve to the pattern the more benefit I see from this. In factories they use a machine called a back part heel molder to do the same mostly for thermoplastic heel counters but it was originaly made for all leather uppers. I have given some thought to building a press to do this with.
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