Throat measurment

[dw]

Larry,

I can't speak to whether it would help or not. I was taught to soak the assembled boot enough, prior to lasting, that the counter would be wet all through. And that's the way I've been doing it ever since. Because the leather of the counter is wet, it moulds to the back of the last better than a dry counter and when I tap everything down...in the final stages of lasting...I suspect that I am eliminating wrinkles just as effectively as if I were using a back part heel molder. I have tension, from hoisting, forcing the last into the counter, tension around both the outside inside circumferance, and the wet leather being gently hammered into the last. What else is wanted, in this regard?

That said, I don't think you are hurting yourself doing this and if you think it helps...it's a good indicator of your respect for the fine nuances which will always lead to better quality.

DWFII...
logging in from out beyond the black stump...

[j1a2g3]

DW

I was wondering if you "Hoist" your Barlmoral's or do you pre-mold your heel counter before hand?

Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

Yes, I do hoist balmorals. To some extent I think this is more a function of the lasts you use than the patterns...although patterns are (or should be) keyed to the lasts. But I read somewhere, years ago...probably Golding...that one always wants to hoist with "extremes" and from the description provided I determined that all cowboy lasts could probably be described as "extremes." Since I consider a well made cowboy last to be as good or better than any other last I've ever run across at a comparable heel height, I make all my boots on one or another of my four models. [Having said that, I don't think these models would answer for all styles of footwear.]

And no, I don't pre-form my counters. They are sewn in...no counter pocket...and end up being right next to the last--grain surface to wood.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Friends,

In February 2002, Jake Dobbins was discussing "TEST TUBES." I am just now catching up to where that is a really hot subject with me. I delivered 4 pair of boots yesterday evening that were made with the Frommer patterns method in his book on "making the full Wellingtom." I really like the much improved look and general sculpture of the boot. I was able to hit 3 (three) of the 4 pair right on the money. The forth pair were difficult for the lady to get on. Now, dont panic, because with the help of a sink full of warm water and the Mallery, they stretched enough to "do the deal."

For over two years I have been trying to nail the "fit." I was wondering about making a set of "Test Tubes" like Jake, D.W., D.A. Saguto and others who have discussed this issue under the throat measurement thread.

This would provide another measurement to insure the clearance at the pass line.

My question is "What do you think? Is it worthwhile to create another measurement with the "Tube" or do I need to keep on concentrating on the tools I already have? Maybe I just need to learn to follow my patterns a little more closely? Who knows? Does anyone else struggle with this fitting issue?

Best Wishes,

Larry Peterson--Member HCC

[jesselee]

Larry

According to my old journal, the throat measurement should match the heel to instep, pointed foot as in Jake's pictures, also standing full weight. Go by the difference ie. if one is 12 1/2 and the other is 13, go 12 3/4. NOW, this is pre 19th century measuring for a boot which looks tight at the ankle area. In those days, if a boot went on easily, it was measured wrong, according to the journal, there should be a struggle to get bast the throat. I have no idea about modern patterns/measurements, but in the old style of each, the boot had no slip, and bear in mind the counter is not curved to the heel as in a modern boot.
Even for just a snippet of information, I hope this helps.

Cheers,
JesseLee

[dw]

Larry,

If I may offer a very unsolicited and gratuitous piece of advice...

Latch on to one way of doing things and stick with it.

There are many boot and shoemakers on this forum. Many have their own particular way of measuring up...which is critical to the way that the last is modified and to the way they draft their patterns. And the way they draft their patterns, is, in turn, essential to the way they approach lasting a boot.

All of these require that a feller learn the basic technique and then bring his own interpretation to it--things like how hard to pull the tape measure will seriously affect the results. And where on the last that particular measurement is determined to be, in relation to where it is on the foot, is also important.

Yet no matter how closely a student follows his mentor's method, it is unlikely that he will be able to duplicate these methods precisely. We each bring our own perspectives and limitations to the game. Muscle tension, for example (which affects how the tape measure is pulled), is bound to be different between any two individuals. So discrepancies creep in. Yet the system remains and, more importantly, the "interpreted" application of the system works. At the same time, these personal interpretations/nuances continue to develop and refine themselves over the years...that's natural, expected and to be desired.

Everyone has mis-fits...anyone who says they don't is either a liar or doesn't have high enough standards of what constitutes a fit.

Don't let one problem throw you off. Maybe you made a mistake...maybe the mistake was simply one of ignorance--for instance, you may not have recognized a particular foot configuration or problem simply because you never saw it before. Go back and analyze what you did. Look for errors every step of the way. Most times, in my experience, at least, the mistakes I make are dumb mistakes--I once tried to make a boot for a fellow where I had written 12-3/4" when the actual measurement was 13-3/4"!

But unless, despite your best efforts, you are getting repeated failures with a method don't throw it over. Work on it. Refine it. Bring your own native intelligence to understanding it.

Finally...and this next bit and what I've already said may be the most important advice I give to all my students...don't mix bits and pieces from other systems. It is a fool's game to try to mix Joe Blow's way of measuring with John Doh's method of drafting a pattern. It is a recipe for failure...guaranteed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by admin on December 24, 2008)

[big_larry]

Thank you both.

I will follow your counsel.

Best wishes for The Holliday Season.

Larry Peterson

[luckyduck]

This is the best place I could think of asking this question.

The background: My Dad has 2 pair of custom boots, (not by me. One pair fits like a dream and the other is tight thru the throat.

The Question: What sort of device would I use to stretch the throat, but leave the rest of the foot the same size? It is not way out, but enough he has to wear thin socks with that pair of boots to get in there. They are fully broken in and he likes everything else about them. My concern is that as a novice at doing anything like this that I would ruin them.

Thanks.

Paul

[paul]

The Mallory Stretcher.

In either the full leg design (you might need to cock it some and just do the bottom section), or there's also a Mallory stretcher for the instep only, but that doesn't sound like what's needed.

Wet it inside and out with water and denatured water (5:1 or so), let it absorb, and wet it again, then do the stretcher. Just do a bit at a time. It's better then overdoing it. (Afterall it is your Dad.)

I think you'll find sources for the Mallory Stretchers somewhere on the Colloqy by search.

Paul K