Lasting

[jenny_fleishman]

re Lasting chrome tanned leather...wet vs. dry lasting...I'll be making walking shoes out of 5-6 oz chap leather (unlined) and lined dance shoes out of lighter weight leather.

In my training class, we dry lasted 5-6 oz. chap leather, and on the Wilson Gracey video, the shoemaker also dry lasted, except he dampened the insole and/or outsole leather, so this would be new to me. If you are wet lasting the upper, do you soak it for an hour or so, the same as veg tanned? And then do you last it right away or let it dry until it's just damp? Do you wait till the upper is completey dry before removing the tacks and cementing it to the insole? I gather Barge doesn't work on wet leather...but what about damp leather?

Does chrome tanned leather mold to the shape of the last better when wet lasted and hold that shape the same way veg tanned does? Chrome tanned shoes that have been wet lasted...do they retain their shape better than dry lasted shoes if you later wear them while they are wet?

Another question...is it possible somehow to stiffen the toe box area of an unlined shoe?

Thanks!

Jenny

[siskiyou]

Hi,

I've noticed the "Wilson Gracey" video mentioned in a couple of posts over the last several months, can someone who has it give me a brief overview of it's contents and also info on where I might find it to purchase?

Thanks,
Terri

[jenny_fleishman]

Terri,

I'll e-mail you privately with the link of where to buy the tapes as I don't know if it violates rules to post it here.

The basic shoemaking shows an Ecuadorian shoemaker making cement down shoes--a man's tie shoe (oxford?) and a woman's high-heeled pump.

As a complete novice I found it informative, although it seems some of the techniques are different from what many of this board use, such as he glues the lining to the outside shoe upper leather, and many here recommend against this. It think it depends on your level of expertise whether the tape will be useful.

I also have a few other of his tapes, including one on plaster casting. I am using this technique as one of the steps in making my own lasts, although the video shows duplicating a commercially made last.

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Oops, sorry Frank. I said "glue" instead of cement re the lining in the last message. I knew I'd slip up one of these days!

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

I don't believe that you can go wrong wet lasting...veg or chrome...but that's the way I was taught. I think you do get a better stretch and a better "set."

The only thing you have to watch out for is dye bleed and water stains...but it's not a problem if you keep that in mind.

Frankly, I can't think of a single advantage to dry lasting...except speed. And "speed kills."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Lasting a stitchdown shoe...Is it feasible to pull the lasting margin of the shoe upper under the bottom of the last and tack it, leave it for an appropriate amount of time (which would be...?), then take the tacks out and turn the lasting margin outward at the feather edge in order to cement it, and then stitch it to the midsole, or is there some other preferable method? Thanks for any info!

Jenny

[das]

Jenny,

You described exactly how I've done them forever!

Yes, pull the margin underneath, and let it get bone dry--or, when in doubt, an extra day or something. While it's tightly lasted and still damp, rub the feather-line hard with a burnishing-stick or bone (or smooth wooden hammer handle), to get a good mark to follow when you fold it back out.

Then you're off, and stitching the midsole.

[jenny_fleishman]

D.A...do you cement the upper to the midsole while the upper is still on the last, then take if off the last to stitch it?

Jenny

[das]

Jenny,

Yes, the upper stays put on the last, I just carefully fold the lasting margin out, then cement the midsole right to it, and rub the lasting margin down hard, plus up close tight to the last so it keeps it's shape down in that crevice around the feather-line. Some of the tensions set up during lasting are lost with stitch-down construction, because of the way you have to do the lasting, etc., but if all goes well the last shape is preserved. If you take the upper off the last to cement and stitch, you'll loose too much of the last shape IMO.

What kind of machine do you have to do this stitching? A curved needle, e.g. Landis? It needs to be able to get up close to the last, without marring your upper, in all events. And, since the lasting margin and midsole, together, are not very thick, the machine needs to be set up for thin material and probably a lighter thread (small awl and needle combination). You'll need to ask the curve-needle experts on good size combos there for thread and needles--I say that because I hand-sewn all of mine

[jenny_fleishman]

I will be hand-sewing. The only sewing machine I have for shoes is a 50-year old rotary Singer machine 201 for sewing uppers! Haven't tried using it yet, but looking forward to it!

Do you use stitchdown construction for boots and/or shoes, and what kind of soling do you use?

Jenny

[erickgeer]

I will try to post on this thread later, but Stitch-down construction can be used in many configurations, but the most common type in production (I think this is still current- anyone?) is in childrens shoes. It has gotten popular again recently- the company "Camper" uses it in some of their line.

Erick

[jenny_fleishman]

Pictures of my fitter shoe in process:

Here is the toe box and the heel counter lasted on. While they were still damp I pounded around the outer edge area of the lasting margin on the insole bottom with a metal hammer, trying to pound the pipes flat:

3961.jpg

3962.jpg

I don't have sharpening stones yet, and I find all my skiving tools, including my new Tina knife, aren't very sharp, so I trimmed with a box cutter:

3963.jpg

3964.jpg

When I removed the toe box, I found that trying to pound the pipes out caused indentations in the insole leather. Is it better not to try to pound the pipes out?

3965.jpg

I cemented the lasting margins of the toe box and heel counter to the insole (using a popsicle stick instead of a brush because of the narrow area), and immediately pounded the cemented areas with a hammer. Is this correct?

Aside from getting some Barge on my T-shirt and almost cementing two of my fingers together, I seem to have survived my endeavors so far

Any comments, corrections, helpful hints?

Should I try to skive the lasting margin to a feather edge, or would you use filler to build up the middle area of the insole? Did I leave a proper lasting margin after the trimming, or is it too wide or narrow?

When making a lined shoe, Should the lasting margin of the toe box and heel counter be narrower or wider than the lasting margin of the lining? Thanks!

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

Well, I am hoping someone else --one of the shoe gurus-- will step in and answer your questions better than I can. But I wanted to say that I am impressed that you are sticking with it and are actually getting your hands dirty. Good on you!!

My take (remember this isn't quite my thing) is that overall you have done a fine job. I might have left a little more leather over the insole, particularly around the heel, especially if this is to be a cement job. And I would skive the heel and toe stiffener so that it blends into the insole. Ideally there is a little curve to the last and insole so that if the toe stiffener, for instance, is skived so that it blends into the insole at say, half inch in from the edge, it will be thicker at, and just over the edge.

Especially for cement construction, I think you need both a little more overlap and a pretty refined transition into the insole.

Also, I use much heavier toe boxes and heel stiffener, and perhaps because of that I pre-notch the heel stiffener and I would probably skive or cut away the pipes on the toe stiffener rather than try to pound things flat. The indentation in the insole is no problem but especially if and when you start using a stiffer toe box or heel counter, you'll find that pounding the pipes only causes the toe box to distort. There has to be some relief, if you see what I mean.

Anyway...again...good on you. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ttex]

Jenny

I'll send some picts of some fitters shoes/boots to your e-mail. it's a pain to program my key board just to send a picture.

CW

[admin]

Chris,

If you check out "formatting" in the left-hand frame, you will see that posting ("send"ing) photos is not difficult. There is zero programming required...of your keyboard or anything else. No pain involved. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

If you are having difficulties...contact me.

Yr. Hmb. Svt....

[relferink]

Jenny,

Nice Job. That looks really good. As DW mentioned, you could have left a little more material on the overlap. For the heel counter I like to be able to fit my steel shank snug in between the overlap. As far as the wrinkles, have a little less material to begin with when you last your counter and to a lesser extend the toe box. This way you will have less major wrinkles and have to trim less to get it smooth. Not a big deal in the fitting shoe and you will do better when the final shoe is made.

I'm still working on a pair that I need to make fitting shoes for. Having been in Florida last weekend (was lovely but got sunburned) and with the nice weather to do some stuff in the yard this weekend I have not gotten to it. Will snap some pictures once I'm working on it and if Chris does not get to it first.
Next week one of my customers is opening a new store so they need me some more than usual so I don't see it happening for a week or two.


Chris,

Congratulations on your journeyman's test. So this makes you what in the Danish system?
Sorry to hear about your father in law's passing away.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris, thanks for the pictures. What materials did you use in various parts of the shoe?

As for trimming/feathering the lasting margin...my lasts, particularly across the ball of the foot, are completely flat from side to side--no curve up at the side...I forget if that means they are not concave or not convex, and don't want to get scolded for using the wrong word!...so I'm thinking I'll have to use some sort of filler to keep them flat.

Rob...is your customer opening a shoe store?

Jenny

[ttex]

DW

I have a danish keyboard. the back slashes etc are not in the normal set-up.

Rob
Thank you very much for your comments. I am just a normal working slob. What I know about lasts and pattern etc. is not part of the normal traing. Jakob has taught me alot that is not part of bottoming. After this I could try to be a master but it would take a while before I’de be allowed to do that.

Jenny

To start with you are welcome to put the pictures in the group if you like.

At work we have pattern makers and sewers that are very good, my master and his wife. They make the pattern based on the last which is finished. The upper is pinned over the last with the heel counter, the cork, the insole and the wooden heel if there is one. We can tweak the last or the cork with out any changes to the upper( for the most part). sometime we have to change the upper.

As you know you don’t want to do this.

What you see in the pictures is the insole cut to size and a shank glued on. The wooden heel is one I made for the boots as a an idea. It’s good to do that now so you can see if it will look good with that upper and last form. As you can see it doesn’t quite work with that upper.

The upper is one layer with the rough side out so that it is easy to slide in and out. The “counters” are just normal fabrik stiffener. If you want more stiffness then you could use the thermal toe boxes on both counters. I wanted to have the stiffness and still be able to feel the foot so I could make the last as small as possible.

With regards to the last the deeper ( within reason) the heel cup the more it will hold your foot. You want a little rounding of the last bottom. It leaves some room for the thickness of the toe box, counter and pinning material. If it is flat flat then you will have to add more cork/felt filler.

I hope this helps, I’ll check in a few days.

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris, what you might do for posting pictures is go to the formatting page and highlight the coding for pasting an image, copy the highlighted area, and then paste it into your HCC message. I actually do this so I don't have to remember the character sequence (my short term memory isn't great, and I haven't even been sniffing Barge fumes for very long yet )

I eliminated the curve on the soles of my lasts because I blame some of my foot discomfort on that curve. I'll have to play around with filler and see how much of a hassle that is. I'm thinking perhaps a thin layer of Cloud, or perhaps a thin layer of chrome tanned leather (as I assume veg tan would make the sole less flexible). Opinions, anyone?

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris's fitter shoe:

3970.jpg

3971.jpg

[ttex]

Jenny

I like the idea of pasting the code for pictures. Thanks!

Don't worry about your memory, it has to be better than mine. Too much fight training at the club.

The advantage of cork is it is light and keeps the cold away. If you want something lighter and warm then PPT is good. I would guess that it is what you call cloud or close to it. You need a grinders to level the ppt. That is where cork is made for people that work at home. A rough file will work to adjust the cork.

Chrome or veg tanned skin will be heavy.

CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris, I've seen a worn out shoe where a thin layer of cork had sort of disintegrated. Is this common?

I'm working on putting together a grinder configuration so I can use that wide sanding wheel I posted a picture of previously, as well as attach different kinds/widths of grinding wheels to it. Have to special order some parts, though, which is slowing me down. Then I have to figure out how to control the dust, without becoming the human vacuum cleaner! I have a few ideas up my sleeve...

Received my sharpening stones in the mail today.

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

Cork does fall apart because the cork we use is like sawdust that is glued together. It's ussual that you add new cork when changing the sole. The reason for it can be sour feet or the person walked in water alot.

Personally, I like the cork because I can feel that the shoe has been built up to the proper level after the new sole is on. I am very hard on the shoes I wear. I'm an elefant with a slight varus foot. I have to correct my heels to before putting a heel cap on.

If you are light on your feet then something softer is fine. Cork is hard, the most common filler for factory shoes(ladies) is something like the cloud and for men it is felt or cork.

I know what you are talking about with the home made working conditions. I'm working on making my own home production area.

Have a nice day
CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Not my proudest moment ...pictures of my lasting effort...didn't go great. Don't know if it's the leather, my technique, or what. I dry lasted. Would a little moisture have made much difference? Also felt a wider laster margin would have been better (but not helped the wrinkles).

4026.jpg

4027.jpg

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

Well, some will tell you different but I'm a big fan of wet lasting. I guarantee you that all those pipes and wrinkles can be removed and brought up onto the insole....wet or dry, but probably alot easier if the leather were wet.

If you take a narrow jawed pincer and grab the very center of that big pipe on the left (in your second photo) and pull it hard...hard...and then drive a tack though the middle of it, just ahead of the pincer jaw and into the insole, most if not all of it will be eliminated.

Each pipe going around the toe, must be dealt with individually and similarly to what I have described above.

And one other thing...just guessing...but I have to say that you've simply not pulled hard enough on any of the leather around the toe. There's a texture to that leather that ought to disappear slightly (or altogether...depending on the quality of the leather) and it hasn't.

All is not lost. You can still spritz the toe good and relast around it.

So...there's the comment from the peanut gallery...take it for what it's worth.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member