Lasting

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dw
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Re: Lasting

#51 Post by dw »

Chuck,

I take it back...a little...two inches above the throatline is where I locate my break, as well. I My internet connection is at home and for some reason I got to thinking it was inch and a half...couldn't (or just didn't) check until this morning. Sorry.

I'm as confidant of the rest, however, as anyone still learning in this business can be. Image

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Re: Lasting

#52 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Cement/glue question...When lasting a dress shoe, an instructional tape I have suggested using Dextrine to glue the shoe upper and lining together, because as you last, when you stretch the lining first and then the upper leather around to the bottom, the glue dries slowly, and allows the two layers to shift against each other.

I've seen posts here that suggests that Dextrine can attract insects because it's organic, plus my shoe finder has never heard of it. Is there some other glue that is good for this purpose? Thanks for any info.
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Re: Lasting

#53 Post by frank_jones »

Jenny Fleishman

First thanks for posting a question on shoemaking.

I too have heard the comments about dextrine. In fact it is a old adhesive from the 1900’s which is very little used now. Partly because of the problem you mention.

I would like to go back to basics and ask why are you sticking the upper and the lining together? All the very best shoes are made “loose lined” meaning the outsides and the lining are made almost like two uppers and they are sewn together around the topline only.

This has the major benefit of the upper being more flexible as well as transmitting perspiration much better because there is no adhesive barrier. Last the lining first but as you stick it to the insole, trim away a little more than half the width of the lining lasting margin. Then when you last the outsides they will also stick direct to the insole where you have removed the surplus lining.

Also, this loose lining construction of the upper means that the only seams visible on the inside of the shoe are the lining seams.

Do come back again, if you think I can help further.

Frank Jones
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Re: Lasting

#54 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Thanks, Frank. The instruction tape I have is from Wilson Gracey, and the shoemaker featured glued the two layers together. From what they said, I believe the reasoning was that gluing the two layers together (and then tamping it with a hammer against the last) made the shoe hold the shape of the last better. I imagine this would be most important in the toe box and heel area, but it made sense to me for the whole shoe, particularly when using thin leather for dress shoes.

However, I'm new to this, and open to all suggestions, techniques and reasoning!
Georgene McKim

Re: Lasting

#55 Post by Georgene McKim »

The most easily attainable form of dextrine paste commercially available is Yes! paste commonly used today in scapbooking. It comes pre- made in jars. Many mail order sources on Google searches but also available at well stocked graphics,drafting or craft stores. Of course this doesn't solve the "stick or not to stick" question. I've made shoes both ways. The dextrine does give you more working time, but it is also prone to creating lumps of paste between the upper and lining unless you're VER-R-R-Y careful to smooth the upper over the lining, forcing out extra paste--a messy proposition.

Frank, it's time you finished that book on professional shoemaking techniques to follow the fine one you sell on patternmaking.

Georgene McKim
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Re: Lasting

#56 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Thanks, Georgene. Do you find that the glue affects the breathability, or flexibility of the leather?
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Re: Lasting

#57 Post by danfreeman »

Dextrine is available as "saddle paste" in dry form. I got plenty from Colorado Saddlery in Denver before I realized it had no uses in modern shoe or bootmaking. Naturally it reduces the flexibility of the leather--this is usually the intent. It is very brittle when dry, so the stiffened toebox or counter loses its enhanced stiffness as soon as it is squashed a time or two. Frank is correct: use no adhesive between upper and lining; there is a dispensation for shoemakers in South and Central America and the Caribbean, who often use different, though perfectly valid (and sometimes superior) techniques. I use Elmer's white glue on counter and toebox (unless they are not leather) to adhere them to the lining, and to add stiffness; white glue has some flex, however, and will hold up well--non-toxic, too.
lcresson

Re: Lasting

#58 Post by lcresson »

Hi Dan Freeman -- I have been reading the comments regarding Jenny Fleishmann's adhesive questions:

>>Frank is correct: use no adhesive between upper and lining; there is a dispensation for shoemakers in South and Central America and the Caribbean, who often use different, though perfectly valid (and sometimes superior) techniques.

But Dan, should I understand that South and Central American/Carribean shoemakers do or do not use adhesive between the upper and the lining from what you wrote above?

And Jenny - a shoemaker I know here uses celastic of a variety of weights for the toe box and no adhesive between the upper and the lining. A 50-50 mix of acetone and MEK methel-ethel-ketone solution gives more working time as the celatic forms toe box over the lining.

Regards,
Lisa
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Re: Lasting

#59 Post by danfreeman »

Lisa
Some do and some don't; my point was that you cannot take one step out of another shoemaker's system and insert it at the appropriate slot in your own system, and be sure it will work. The Ecuadoran shoemaker in the Wilson Gracey video glued (not cemented with Barge) lining to upper throughout; Calvin Dayes, a Jamaican-American shoemaker, does not, that is, his shoes are "loose lined."
My own system is different from the methods these men use, in some steps and proceedures, even though both clearly have more experience and skill than I.
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Re: Lasting

#60 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Dan--the Elmer's white glue you refer to...is it the regular Elmer's kids use for craft projects (white just refering to the color), or is it a special variety of Elmer's?
shoestring

Re: Lasting

#61 Post by shoestring »

Let me ask this how is everyone getting their heel stiffners stiff,is it the same method used as getting their toe boxes hard.

Ed
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Re: Lasting

#62 Post by danfreeman »

Jenny
Elmer's Glue-All, the regular stuff, though not Elmer's School Glue.
Lisa Cresson

Re: Lasting

#63 Post by Lisa Cresson »

Hi Dan,
I hear your shoes are really pretty great; and I have seen that Ecudorian shoemaker video -- Even with the sound off, it was very instructional.

Forgive me for not reinforcing the impression that mixing steps was a bad idea; rather I meant to list different methods but probaly should have written alot more.

To Ed -I think the stiffening depends on the footwear: Celastic toe box or lightweight leather with Press Cement.

In art school, when we were really poor, we would use the white Elmer's glue from the HomeDepot to prime the canvas [half-water] before painting. It sealed and provided the same resilient bounce as linen primed with rabbitskin glue made from pellets. Odd thing about Elmer's white glue, is when dry, it is highly compatible with more oily materials and takes alot of stress.

At the moment, I have bacterial pneumonia [first time] and the symptoms give no indication of how awful it is and how the infection lingers! Still six more days of the ten day new antibiotic Avalox; which my MD warned may make me dizzy as a side effect. First was not enough to wipe it out.
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Re: Lasting

#64 Post by jenny_fleishman »

re filler...in the Wilson Gracey shoemaking video, the shoemaker tacks the upper under the bottom of the insole, glues it, and then skives the underturned leather to a feather edge. He does not use any filler down the middle of the shoe before putting the outsole on. The argument given is that glueing leather to leather is more durable than using cork, felt, cardboard, etc. --both the material, and the bonding of the two layers.

I am curious what everyone's experience and preference is for this. I have actully seen a pair of work shoes that had a layer of cork that had disintegrated with 6 months of wear on the shoes.

At the same time, even if you skive the underturned leather to a feather edge, it is still bound to have some thickness at the edge of the shoe, I would think. So that makes me lean towards using some sort of filler.

Besides durability, when I get around to making my dance shoes I will be concerned about maintaining flexibility at the ball of the foot, as you don't want much resistance when you rise on the ball of your boot. At the same time I want impact absorption, and am considering layers of poron, cloud, PZ, and/or who knows what else in a variety of combinations, as filler and/or insole layers.

Any feedback appreciated.

Jenny
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Re: Lasting

#65 Post by frank_jones »

Jenny Fleishman

Your post raises several questions:-

1. “glueing leather to leather is more durable than using cork, felt, cardboard, etc.” I find this hard to accept. With modern sole attaching adhesives all that is needed to hold the sole in place reliably is 12mm of lasting margin. If you only bond to the lasting margin, then the shoe is more flexible because there is no stiffening caused by what I think of as the “plywood sandwich effect”. Whenever you stick two layers of any sheet-like materials - leather, fabric, board, anything; the result is always is much stiffer than the two layers unbonded. Sometimes less is more.

2. Most women’s lightweight fashion shoes including dance shoes, have a very thin layer of filler in the centre of the insole. There are two main purposes for this filler. To stop the sole collapsing in the middle and messing up the look of the shoe bottom and to provide some support to the thin insoles used in women’s shoes, so that they do not collapse in the centre during wear.

3. There are a whole range of materials used for fillers. Cork is OK but for women’s shoes the layer would be so thin that it would almost certainly break up in wear, as you mention. For me a better material is felt. It needs to be the right thickness but the color etc. does not matter. Upholstery scraps can be perfect. If you want to pay money for small pieces of felt, most shoe repair suppliers sell, what they not surprisingly call, fillers.

Frank Jones
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Re: Lasting

#66 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Thanks Frank. I assume the filler must be glued either to the insole OR the outsole. Am I correct in guessing it's the insole?

Would you consider Barge cement adequate to hold the outsole on by glueing just around the lasting margin?

Another technique question. On the video, the shoemaker did not notch the lasting margin, he just skived down the bulges created by wrinkles around the curved heel and toe areas. Is this the best technique or is it better to cut out notches so the leather lies flat and doesn't overlap?
Lisa Cresson

Re: Lasting

#67 Post by Lisa Cresson »

Jenny,
The bootmaker I took a class with used the same technique you describe, not only to remove the overage after lasting but also at the back of the cowboy boot counter, pulling it down to make sure the boot shaft was straight. Completely eye-balled the these and other parts of the construction. He only had two vamp patterns women and small footed men, and then bigger men.

Both may be acceptable methods depending on the experience of the cordwainer, with notching and measuring for those who wish to make matches during construction or patterns from a factory setting which include grading.

Earlier this week I stumbled by the new TruForm store in NYC and saw a pair of 75 year old double-welted men's wingtip shoes.
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Re: Lasting

#68 Post by frank_jones »

Jenny Fleishman

Before I pick up your points, I have a personal moan.

Shoemakers do not use glue. In The Oxford English Dictionary glue is defined as “hard brittle brownish gelatine made by boiling hides and bones and used warm for uniting substances”. Webster’s calls it “a sticky viscose liquid made from animal gelatin used as an adhesive”. It is the original carpenters’ and joiner’s adhesive used in the joints of furniture. What woodworkers call there adhesive is their business simply do not work in footwear. We need adhesives that will bond and stay bonded when the two surfaces are bent and flexed in wear. All of our adhesives are elastomer based (organic chemist jargon for “rubbery”). I am happy for them to be called cement, solution, or adhesive but never GLUE. I have never seen a can of shoemaking adhesive with the word glue on the label. Can anybody prove me wrong?

Apologies for the above, I had to get it off my chest.

1. Yes, you need to stick the filler to the insole one small spot at each end will be enough.

2. I am not certain (does anybody have a Spec. Sheet?) but I think Barge Cement is what the rest of the world call Neoprene Sole Attaching Adhesive. This has been used all over the world since the early 1950’s to attach soles and the accepted sticking area is ideally 12 mm but anything over 10½ mm is normally OK. One small point, footwear factories now mainly use Polyurethane Adhesive. This is simply because in the long term Neoprene get attacked by certain plastics used in some shoes, and although the adhesive is slightly more expensive they can do their sole attaching without checking carefully what is in the sole or parts of the upper.

3. You can notch the lasting margin if it works for you. The risk is that the narrow strips you have to pull really hard around the toe, are more likely to tear near the feather edge. The very place where you need the upper to be strong.
On women’s shoes you are often working with more pointed toes. The normal technique for getting the pleats cleared around the toe is to have a special pair of narrow-nosed lasting pliers for this job. You can tuck them into each pleat and twist them one way or the other as you pull. This is not a good idea if the upper is notched.
A final point on this subject, women’s shoes are usually made of much finer materials and therefore can be more prone to tear. Leave the pleats there until you have a really clean feather edge and the upper material has begun to accept the new shape. Perhaps leave it for an hour or so. Presumably then you are going to push some adhesive onto the back of the lasting margin and the insole, ready to hammer it down when it is dry. Leave the removing of the lasting nails and trimming of the pleats for at least two hours more. Most Neoprene adhesives only reach less than half of their bond strength initially. With Neoprene the bond is typically up to almost full strength after two hours. Once the nails are out you can remove the surplus upper material in the pleats.

Apologies again for the tirade at the top of this post. It really is wonderful to have shoemaking questions and I hope the above is helpful.

Frank Jones
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Re: Lasting

#69 Post by dw »

A lot depends on what is being used for a stiffener/counter and how much lasting allowance has been provided.

In common practice among some shoemakers it is quite the thing to cut the vamps and quarters with as little lasting allowance as is possible. As Frank points out, notching becomes problematic under such circumstances for all the reasons he cites.

Many shoemakers and not a few bootmakers use an inserted counter, and some even use synthetic materials or materials other than leather for stiffening. Depending on the thickness of this component, notching may or may not be an option.

When making boots...at least in the school/tradition that I was taught, lo these many years ago...sufficient lasting margin is allowed both in the vamp/quarter regions as well as in the heel seat area that most if not all the excess may be lasted and wiped and trimmed away. And thus no skiving or notching is necessary. As for the stiffener/counter itself, I use a piece of 10-11 iron soling leather and if it is *not* notched it will never last evenly and cleanly around the heel and bottom of the last.

Just my 2¢ for the kitty...

[Frank...no, I think you are right. Although we may not always agree on terminology due to geological or chronological distance, it is good to be drawn back to a common and accepted lexicon and not allow ourselves and our thinking (and thinking and language are inextricably intertwined) to wander about in the wilderness, as who should say.]

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Re: Lasting

#70 Post by sorrell »

Frank,
Your note about "glue" and "cement" made me smile. The first bootmaker I worked for, Jay Griffith, would not allow us to use the word "glue" in his shop. He said it was cement, not glue. Occasionally I forget and refer to it as glue but I know Jay would disapprove. You're much kinder in expressing your thoughts than Jay was though! Image

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Re: Lasting

#71 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Apologies for my primitive vocabulary. I'm sure "glue" is not the first word I have misused, and probably will not be the last (no pun intended). But hey, can I call Elmer's "glue"? (Can't figure out how to post a smiley face, either!)

Jenny
Lisa Cresson

Re: Lasting

#72 Post by Lisa Cresson »

Frank,
Barge cement is similar in stink and appearance to rubber cement but much stronger; and it can glue pretty much anything to anything else.

The web site www.gluethistothat.com [now not online] had a little Java or CGI app that let you select the two materials you wanted to join with adhesive, and it would match them to a cement or glue. The most frequent solution was barge.

My flight to India on Monday was re-booked and I lost the stop-over in London, but will send you some if you want.

Jenny - I think the smiley faces are just graphics uploaded or pasted into place. On Windows, right-click-n-drag them to the desktop.

Lisa
erickgeer

Re: Lasting

#73 Post by erickgeer »

Frank,

I've been pondering something you mentioned a couple of days ago, about trimming the lining leather to half of the final lasting margin of the upper. I've never heard this before, and always assumed that one would be more concerned about the lasting margin in contact with the sole. Won't trimming the lining short cause a ridge and therefore effect the contact of the upper leather to the sole? Is there a recommended way to avoid this?

Another thing that's gotten me curious is your mention of ladies pointed toes- there are so many shoes on the market with razor pointed toes, it seems that it would be impossible to clear the pipes at the toe without a) machinery or b) grinding dangerously close to the feather edge.

Any comments you have on these would be very interesting.

Thank you,

Erick
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Re: Lasting

#74 Post by frank_jones »

Erick Geer Wilcox

You raise two points.

1. Regarding trimming the lining back, we are going back to my posting 21st November. This was in a particular context. I was “talking” about loose-lined shoes where the upper and lining are made like two uppers and are normally only attached together by the top-line stitching. I said, “Last the lining first but as you stick it to the insole, trim away a little more than half the width of the lining lasting margin. Then when you last the outsides they will also stick direct to the insole where you have removed the surplus lining”.

What I had in mind was trimming the lining so that it just comes over the feather edge and only perhaps 2 or 3 mm remains attached to the insole. The trimming is normally done at such an angle that what you produce is a taper, rather similar to a skived edge. Note this is done after the lasting stresses have relaxed a little, at the stage just before the adhesive is brushed under the lasting margin and onto the insole. What this means is that if the full lasting margin on the lasted shoe is say 11 to 15 mm wide, then only the first 2 mm at the feather edge will have the extra thickness of the lining underneath it. With ladies dress shoes, the lining will be very thin indeed and I do not think you will have any problem “losing” that slight extra thickness.

2. You also ask about lasting very pointed toe shoes. The process is nowhere near as difficult as it looks and like most things, once you have done four or five pairs it becomes much easier. Back to actually using the tools. One of the hardest parts is doing the first long-wise draft, the one you would normally do right over the toe. One trick is to produce this first draft by pulling the lasting margin forward, immediately on each side of the point. Ideally you should do this on both sides simultaneously, impossible with hand tools.

Interestingly this is one example of where factory machinery is actually superior. The forepart lasting machine has seven (sometimes nine) pincers positioned around the forepart of the shoe and the operator can directly set up the order in which each pair pulls, how hard they pull, and how far they travel. He can even last the shoe in two stages, so that the machine stops after pulling. He can then adjust manually the pull on any individual pincer, before allowing the machine to proceed with applying the adhesive and wiping the upper under the shoe, which is then pressed against the insole. Back to hand lasting.

One thing I forgot to mention. We are talking here of shoemaking carried out on ladies fashion shoes. Lasting is done direct, or to put it another way the upper is not “hoisted”. With the thinner materials there is no need for the extra power that hoisting provides.

Once the long-wise strains are in place then you have to decide which “pulls” to do next. I am going to pass over this because it is a basic lasting decision and not particularly different in pointed toe shoes.

Many shoemakers leave the lasting of very pointed section of the toes until after the rest of the shoe has been drafted or even fully lasted. You have to attack the point in a rather similar way to lasting any slightly pointed toe. However, the more extreme the point, the smaller the “bites” you need to take. This is where those narrow-nosed lasting pincers are vital. The golden rule is to twist the pincers as you pull and don’t get too concerned if you cannot get a pull right over the toe. The aim as always is a clean feather edge and the upper down to the wood.

I hope that is helpful/interesting.

Frank Jones
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erickgeer

Re: Lasting

#75 Post by erickgeer »

Frank,

Thank you for the explanation. I'm very surprised at how narrow the lining is lasted. Am I reading correctly that the 2-3 mmis mostly full thickness, and then the remainder is skived to nothing? I might give this a try next time. Is the substance of the insole important? We pretty much can't find leather insoles anymore, so I've had to rely on Bontex at my shop and with the students.

Your remarks on the pointed toes are about what I expected. I always have a couple of students that modify the toe characters to an extreme point and then have trouble clearing the lasting margin. I make them buy a pair of needle nose pliers which are usualy sufficient to get to the small pipes.

I think the two techniques in conjunction may help my students improve their work.

Very helpful and interesting, thank you.

Erick
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