Lasting

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jake
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Re: Lasting

#26 Post by jake »

D.W.,

Can you tell us which leathers that you feel are important to use with this "partial-backing"?
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Re: Lasting

#27 Post by dw »

Jake,

It's not a big deal--anything that is strong and relatively thin. The backing you see on the photo above is some @ 3oz. yellow calf I get from Corral Leathers.

But it could be kangaroo, it could even be a thin, but strong kid, Or a nice 2 1/2 oz milled veg like I'm getting from M&T Leathers (thanks,Tom). You have to be the judge. Of course, it's all "scrap" so what you use one time you may not have available the next.

But if I were buying it for just that purpose, I'd probably go with a nice natural 'roo from Sheridan Leathers.

Gary,

You're welcome...you know that. Image

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Re: Lasting

#28 Post by jake »

D.W.,

I'm sorry! I meant, besides ostrich, what leathers benefit from the "partial-backing"?
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Re: Lasting

#29 Post by dw »

Jake,

I've been happy with the results on ostrich, alligator, some snake, etc.. I usually use a full backing on lizard, and thin snake, though.

Beyond that, the partial backing is just an adaptation of the concept of a midliner. In this case it not only reinforces the inseam...something the midliner was intended to do...but it also reinforces the side seam--great on tender leathers like "nasty" ostrich--and makes crimping such leathers a bit less "iffy."


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Re: Lasting

#30 Post by paul »

DW,


A year ago I posted a problem with a choked throat on an Ostrich vamp. I've been rereading my panic and your reply. That situation was solved and the customer was able to wear her boots in her competition (though she didn't win).


Anyway here I am again repeating history! This guy brought me his own precut Ostrich vamps from Okmolgee, where he had taken the boot making course (It wasn't a good experience for him, but he is a more informed boot wearer as a result). Anyway, I think, among other conclusions I'm coming to, that the tongue didn't get placed high enough on the board, the same as my problem with last years vamp. Consequently the boot is "choked" making lasting difficult. As a matter of fact it looks just like the picture of the white Ostrich I posted on this subject last year, an interesting, if tragic, coincidence.
And like last year, I'm hoping stretching it on my Mallory stretcher will let me drop it down over the cone of the last.

But there is another coincidence in the mix that needs acknowledging. I woke up this morning aware of it. And it's that I'm working toward a 2 1/4" heel, same as last years lesson. Most all the boots I've done are 1 1/2" heels. So I think I need some instruction here. DW, you hinted at something in one of those previous posts, that I wonder about . You said,
"Making the boards more of a 90 degree angle also would help but if you are doing a higher heel you will still have to "spring" the vamps "away" from that 90 degree angle and that too can cause some problems. Still it's a good solution as long as you understand the theory."
It's the "springing" that I'm curious about. I used your quarter cutting template to adjust the precut curve to more closely resemble the cut I usually get with your pattern, and adjusted it for a higher heel as you describe in your book by pivoting the toe up to the notch, but I don't think I really know what I'm doing. Could you talk about "springing" the vamp and straighten me out here?


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Re: Lasting

#31 Post by dw »

Paul,

I've read and re-read your post several times, trying to get a handle on how to respond. Truth to tell, nothing short of actually seeing what you are doing from start to finish would give me enough to pinpoint your problem.

As I recall from last year, the problem seemed more in the last you were using, and perhaps in your approach to measuring and modeling the foot, than in the patterning and such.

Springing the vamp...well, I might be using the word incorrectly. But it starts with a visualization of the final form of the boot--the heel height in particular. If the boot is to have a low heel, the vamp and leg will present a profile that can be described as "L" shaped. The vamp sits on the top in such a way as to be nearly 90 degrees from the top. As the heel height increases, that angle changes. And the vamp/top relationship becomes more and more like a hockey stick (Stanley Cup Finals begin on Tuesday). The bottom line is that the shape and angle of the board nearly doesn't matter---of course I'd have very strong preferences--as long as we understand those relationships. If we do we can cut the quarters so that when the vamp is mounted on the tops, the vamp presents a different angle to the tops depending on the heel height wanted. As long as I know what heel height the final boot is to have, as long as I can estimate the shape of the vamp vis-a-vis the tops that I need, I can place my quarter cutting template in such a way as to achieve that configuration no matter what the shape of the board is.

However...all things being equal, using a board that is more nearly at 90 degrees to the eventual leg of the boot, will yield a vamp that is more nearly at 90 degrees to the tops. If the heel height is to be 7/8 inch, this angle might be just right. If the heel height is to be 2 1/4 inch, this angle is more than is needed. The vamp is said to be "sprung." Of course we can do this purposefully...giving us more room from the point of the vamp which coincides with the middle of the instep, to the bottom of the last at roughly where the sideseam will be. If that dimension is choked, the boot will always be choked in the throat. I don't care what board you use, I don't care how high on the board you mount your blocker, I don't care how wide the board is, I don't care what last you are using, I don't care how you model the foot...the boot will be choked in the throat and sit too high on the last and probably lean back and probably have a very "open" counter.

How we cut the quarters on the vamp can affect that dimension. that's spring. How we cut the throat of the tops can affect it. How we plug in the measurements from the foot onto the last will, of course affect it. What measurements we use in modeling the foot and patterning the tops will affect it--short heel, long heel...form the foot, on the last.

But even though that measurement is so critical, we can't really measure it on the foot or the last. Or, at least, I don't know how we could measure it. How do you determine where the side seam is going to be on the foot? How do you accurately measure at that angle to 'somewhere' under the arch? That said, if we've taken the short heel measurement from the foot correctly, and modeled it correctly on the last, and if we've plugged in a sufficient measurement into the throat of the tops, and if the vamp is sprung enough (mind you I mean "enough" not too much or too little), and we mount the vamps such that we do not choke the throat or "unspring" the quarters, then we will have addressed that elusive measurement from the instep to the sideseam sufficiently to avoid any problems.

If you want, you can contact me in private email, or call me, and perhaps I can help you further. Don't stop posting or asking questions on the forum, just that it might be easier to understand in a direct conversation.

Anyway...that's the way I see it, I hope it helps...

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Re: Lasting

#32 Post by paul »

DW,

Thank you for the time you took to reply to my quandry. I've been busy with visitors and got thrown off tract this week end.

You mention a lot of things in your post and I don't know where to begin, either. I believe my trouble last year was the same as the one I'm currently having. The blocker being mounted to low on the crimp board. But additionally, as I said, this was a precut vamp from Okmolgee. I tried to adjust the angle for heel height as you point out, but to little avail.

Wait a minute! I've just had a thought.

Could it be that when using your tongue template, what I should be doing for a 2 1/4" heel, is tracing along the tongue line as high up on the blocker as possible, then before I trace the quarter curve, I should shift the front of the template up to align the register notch to be in line with the vamp for heel height? This shifting is what I have not been doing. Could that be part of my trouble? For then, I could see, the vamp would be 'sprung' in the 'hockey stick' profile you describe when mounted on the leg, would it not?
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Re: Lasting

#33 Post by dw »

Paul,
Wait a minute! I've just had a thought.

Could it be that when using your tongue template, what I should be
doing for a 2 1/4" heel, is tracing along the tongue line as high up
on the blocker as possible, [snip]


Now you're on track! With this exception: Trace both the tongue and the quarter **curve** on the side of the vamp as high as it will go (use good judgment here and be sure you can cut both vamps at the same height) and then align the template by rotating it around the curve. Then when the template is in position, draw in, or cut, the quarter itself. Actually, you don't even need to worry about the tongue because with my patterns the quarter-curve/tongue template is a blocker and the tongue itself is cut with a separate template after the quarter and quarter curve on the vamp have been cut and the vamp opened.

This procedure is followed in every circumstance with every heel height...high or low. I think it will make a big difference.

Also, (and my personal patterns may differ both from the ones supplied with the book as well as with the ones you're using...) I take a tape measure and measure 1 1/8" from the center of the blade-fold on the vamp blocker around to where the quarter curve will be. I do this in about 4 or 5 different locations separated from each other by about an eight of an inch This yields a dotted line an inch and an eighth from the center of the "tongue" (or what will be the tongue) and it is along that line that I locate the quarter curve. That way my tongue is always the same width no matter what thickness of leather I'm using and the quarter curve is always the same distance from the center line of the tongue/vamp. This is kind of hard to explain and because it is one of those "adjustable" measurements (depending on how wide you want to spread your tongue and other esthetic considerations), I don't formally teach it nor include it in my books. Usually the template itself will, if used carefully, provide something close. But if it helps...


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Tom Mickel

Re: Lasting

#34 Post by Tom Mickel »

DW,
Hi, I think I'm having a similar problem to Mr. Krause. But my problem is trying to cut the vamp right for a 1" heel. I'm using your book and templates and everything is perfect but I end up with the last falling down into the vamp. I seem to have the template too high on the blocker when I cut the vamp. Is there any way that you can illustrate your May 24 post? I realize that you have warned me in phone conversations that your templates and technique all work together and that changing something like the heel height should not be done without lots of consideration but I'm so close to getting exactly the result that I want that I have to ask this question. Many thanks to everyone for what I have learned from all the posts! Tom.
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Re: Lasting

#35 Post by dw »

Tom,

I will have to work on getting up an illustration. [For some reason I haven't been getting post from the Forum, so I didn't even know that there was activity here. I thought it was purty durn quiet]

Anyway, back to the problem...let me see if I can put it another way so that it maybe is a bit clearer.

If you simply raise and lower the forepart of the template when it is lying on the side of the crimped vamp, you will see that the nearly half-round curve at the side of the "tongue"--the "quarter **curve**" itself--moves closer to, or further from the folded edge of the vamp blocker.

This is no good! Cut your vamps like this and you will be cutting the tongue itself wider or narrower as the template is adjusted for heel height. How can you expect consistant results?

It will also tend to creep up or down the vamp relative to where it lies when cutting for an inch and five-eighths inch heel. Again...to be avoided.

The template must be laid on the crimped blocker as if to cut the 1 5/8" heel. That's what the template was originally designed for. Use a silver pen to trace around the quarter curve. You should end up with a half-circle in silver on the side of your vamp. Now replace the template on the vamp blocker and pivot the template around that silver half-circle. Up for higher heels, down for lower heels. [You could make separate templates for each heel height, but again you'd want the tongue--between the quarter curves--to always end up being the same width...because you want to always mount it on your tops the same way and with the same spread] When the template is in position, cut or trace with the silver pen where the quarters themselvse are.

And it doesn't matter where the top of the tongue portion of the quarter template lays relative to the fold in the blocker. Once the sides of the vamp--quarter and quarter-curve--are cut, you open the blocker and cut the tongue itself with a separate template.

Hope that helps...let me know if you still need the illustration.

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Tom Mickel

Re: Lasting

#36 Post by Tom Mickel »

DW,
Thanks, that's a good explanation that I can understand without further illustration.

I will make templates for different heel heights but I want understand the principles first with respect to your system (that I think that I mostly understand) so I just don't go off on a tangent.

I'll go crimp some scrap leather and try cutting vamps for a few heel heights. I keep a glued together boot top for my wife's leg and it gives me a chance to try out different ideas.

Thanks again.
Joe Wilson

Re: Lasting

#37 Post by Joe Wilson »

DW, anyone, I have a question concerning the angle of the crimp board. What difference does it make if your crimo board is 90 degrees as opposed to a less severe angle? I'm making western boots. It would seem that it would be easier to crimp with a less severe angle. Thanks
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Re: Lasting

#38 Post by dw »

Joe,

This is my opinion...I think you are correct--a more severe angle makes crimping harder; less severe, easier. I think that the way in which you cut your vamp blockers after they come off the board is far more important than the board angle. However, there is a point of diminishing returns too little board angle and you may as well not crimp at all. On the other hand a more severe crimp angle makes cutting the tongues and the quarters a bit easier and perhaps allows the vamp to fit the last with less stress.

I fall back on my experience with full wellingtons. It all comes together (or falls apart), here. Either your understanding of patterns and lasts and leathers is validated or you end up punting. Cutting regular cowboy boots (or dress wellingtons) we can adjust, off of almost any board, for varying heel heights. We can't do that with full wellingtons. If your board angles are too shallow, you will never get the boot to settle down on any last without making the throat of the boot wider...and wider...and even then, you may be limited to higher heeled lasts. Of course it is relatively easy to crimp a full blocker of almost any leather on a shallow angle board. On the other hand, it is very hard to crimp a full blocker on a very steeply angled board. I do it in two stages. But once brought to that configuration, it is relatively simple to adjust for any heel height of last--from 7/8" to 2 1/4"--AND keep the throat relatively narrow. All while obtaining a good break at the high instep of the last and keeping the tops from leaning in either direction--forward or back.

If you can visualize what I'm talking about with regards to the full wellingtons, then the issues with board angle and dress wellingtons pretty much fall into place. Otherwise, my advice is to crimp with as steep an angle as you can, while at the same time achieving a reasonable ease of crimping, and then adjust your patterns accordingly...and never mess with them again! Image

Again, this is just one opinion...someone else might have a different take on the subject.

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Joe Wilson

Re: Lasting

#39 Post by Joe Wilson »

One more question, I've seen crimp boards that had different degrees of angle depending on the heel height. Any comments?
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Re: Lasting

#40 Post by dw »

Joe,

Not necessary, IMO. Now that's not to say it won't work...obviously it does. But what's the point of having eight crimping boards when two will do? Fact is, I would wager that all things being equal, if you took a vamp, crimped on any "heel-height-adjusted" crimp board, cut it, and compared it to one of mine cut specifically for heel height, I doubt there would be a lick of difference.

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Lisa Cresson

Re: Lasting

#41 Post by Lisa Cresson »

Horst,
On the western boot last -- eBay can sometimes provide good photos, or send me email and I will send you some photos. But beyond the toe styling and the 'cone' being higher and more stylized that a factory 'straighteded' boot last. You will find on observation that the heel area and the ball area are rounded laterally and vertically, which makes them more comfortable. Bill Tippit could make some just to fit your feet and then ship to Austria.

Regards,
Lisa
saddlematt

Re: Lasting

#42 Post by saddlematt »

Help, we are trying to last a pair of stingray boots got through the sewing problems alright, but now its trying to tear when we make the pulls on the last, there not messed up to bad yet, we quit on the first one till we could ask someone who knows more about stingray then we do,this is are first time working with it,
we have got the leather wet when the pulls are made, and it seems to be a good skin. thanks Matt
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Re: Lasting

#43 Post by dw »

Matt,

I hate the stuff...mostly because you can't sew a straight, clean, refined, or pretty line on it. But that doesn't help you much.

Stingray needs to be "backed." If not wholly, then partially. At this point in the game your best bet might be to let the boot dry out and then add a "midliner" that is cemented with all-purpose to the sides (inside) of the vamp. That should reinforce the leather enough to last...or not. but I can't think of anything else that might help.

I don't have all that much experience with stingray. Once I saw what the problems were I tried to devise a method to make stingray boots without having to stitch on, across, and sometimes through, the "beads." I worked out a great system and a student I had from Japan took my ideas home and made stingray boots for Japanese rock stars for a while. But I was just so fed up with **fussing** with it I never made another pair. I don't offer it and won't. Just one person's opinion though.

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saddlematt

Re: Lasting

#44 Post by saddlematt »

DW,thanks we will give it a try. Matt
Chuck Deats

Re: Lasting

#45 Post by Chuck Deats »

Heel Grip----Seems the forum is a little slow; maybe people are on vacation or hopefully fishing. Maybe I can get some comments on a problem. I can’t seem to get the leather to “grip the wood” around the heel counter when lasting. I end up with a ¼ to ½ inch gap between the last and counter most of the way around. I don’t know if the problem is patterns or technique. The results are acceptable but would like a little better fit at the heel. I am making a two piece boot, but the problem should be the same for a four piece boot.

The counters are made from 12 iron sole leather using a pattern similar to the improved model (curved) shown in DW’s book. I have finder counters of a more square shape but the curved ones seem to fit better. The top of the counter ends up about 2 ¼ inches above the insole at the side seam. The bottom of the back liner is cut to a shallow vee, about 5/8 inch at the center. The bottom of the counter is humped up until the top sort of matches with the vee in the liner, then attached to the liner. This hump in the counter seems to disappear in subsequent operations and causes some wrinkles in the liner. (maybe, I need to redo the hump before trimming the counter to width.)

The backs are crimped about ¾ inch around the counter and the wrinkles in the liner are smoothed out when the backs are glued on. (maybe, the counter should not be trimmed to width until the backs are glued on----This will make the hand skiving of the edges of the counter much harder.)

The throat measurement has been reduced from short heel minus ½ inch to short heel minus one inch. This seems to help the problem but does not solve it. It makes the boot a little harder to get on and off but still acceptable.

When lasting, the “hoisting” technique is used. The bottom of the counter is tacked to the last about ¾ inch above the bottom of the last then the first draw is over the toe to pull the vamps tight. (maybe, I am not pulling this draw strong enough to suck in the counter.) The front is lasted then the “hoisting” tacks are removed and the counter is lifted. The counter seems to move up easier than I think it should. I would expect this to be a major hammer operation, but it ends up just a “tap, tap” kind of thing. The side seams are pretty straight but usually end up curving toward the toe around the counter.

Thanks for this forum. When I have a problem, I find it useful to write down what I am doing; thus, this epistle. The forum makes you write it down in a format that, maybe, someone else can understand. Any comments, advice, etc would be appreciated. I realize there are many variables and descriptions are hard to do.

Chuck
erickgeer

Re: Lasting

#46 Post by erickgeer »

Chuck,

I don't do this type of boot, but I've found from experimenting that you need to make a pretty hard pull in hoisting to shape the back part. Also (and this could be different for the patterning of western boots....) but subsequently, after the back part of the last is forced in to the counter, lasting the shank area will pull the leather tighter to the last through the counter.

Hope this helps,

Erick
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Re: Lasting

#47 Post by dw »

Chuck,

I can offer some observations based on my own two piece boots (although this has gotten me into trouble in the past) but ultimately no one but you can address these problems unless they follow your recipe pretty much to a tee and understand how each part of the boot functions in relationship to every other part and how the techniques/formulae that you are using change or affect those relationships.

Anyway...

First, with any boot if you are not getting "heel grip", as you put it, there is at least a chance that your boot is sitting too high on the cone. This would be further indicated if the counter hoisted too easily and perhaps again if the side seam curved towards the toe a lot.

For my own full cuts I still use short heel minus half inch, but I am using a board that opens the forepart of the blocker more than on my dress cuts. So, the angle of the "vamp" is more at a 90 degree angle to the top than the...what? call it 75 degree angle I use on four piece boots. Taken together, however, I am not getting significantly greater "ease" in the throat or "high instep"/"long heel" relationship than on my standard four piece boot. This is due at least partially to the relative lack of residual stretch that results when a blocker is crimped for two piece boots. But, it is my feeling...or more accurately, my observation....that tightening down the throat by using SH-1" would make it dead certain that the boot never seated on the cone of the last properly --at least with the methods and patterns I use.

Second, I think two and a quarter inch at the side seam is too much unless the boot is in the 11-13 range. I generally shoot for two inches at the side seam for mid-rage boots and a little less for small sizes. As Erick said, taking a heavy draft just in front of the sideseam...after hoisting and tacking the counter rear center...will often contribute greatly to pulling the counter in around the comb of the last.

I might add that I crimp my back blockers so that when they are assembled to the back liner and counter, the back blocker has a "hump" in it that almost perfectly matches the hump in the counter. I believe that all things being equal this goes a long way to eliminating the wrinkles you may be getting in the back liner, although careful placement of the back blocker on the back liner is just as important as how the backs are crimped. That said, those wrinkle should tree out.

Finally, I don't pull the vamp over the toe of the last all that hard. Finger tight if you have strong fingers and maybe with stout or very firm leather a slight pull with the pincers. What you are looking for is a ridge of leather from the toe of the last to the break at the throat of the boot. Any break in that ridge is an indication that the patterns or the crimping results are flawed--maybe not fatally flawed but ideally some attention should be paid to one or the other (or maybe even both) of those relationships especially if you are consistently having this kind of problem.

Finally, a personal observation...while it may not be historically correct, my sense is that the two piece boot ought to go on and fit very similar to the four piece boot--I would say exactly the same but for the fact that the initial stresses on the leather during crimping/blocking result in something at least 'distinguishable' from the crimped vamp/top of the four piece boot. And they should sit on the last, draw tight to the last, and present virtually the same lines as the four piece boot, as well. My philosophy is that if the patterns work for the dress cut, they ought work for the the full cut. And vice versa. In fact, I make three styles of pull-on boot and I use essentially the same methods/formulae and principles to construct each. Seems to me that especially with the two forms of sideseam boot if the basic principles aren't working for both then there has to be a flaw in the reasoning somewhere--the two forms are just so intimately related.

Just 2 cents....


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Chuck Deats

Re: Lasting

#48 Post by Chuck Deats »

Erick, DW,
Thanks for ther prompt useful comments. I will put together a reply after I think a little bit about what was said.

Thanks, Chuck
Chuck Deats

Re: Lasting

#49 Post by Chuck Deats »

Erick, DW,

Thanks for the prompt insightful comments. I have read them over and over and think I am beginning to understand. Seems I am doing most things right (Still need to do some more work and thinking about the hump in the counter.) but I am not getting the boot down over the cone of the last tight enough. The cone is a wedge and I am not jamming it in tight enough. If the counter ends up too low, then the patterns need work or the relationship of the front break point with respect to top of the counter needs to be reevaluated. Currently using two inches.

I am using a 90 degree crimp on the front blocker (I am beginning to learn the language; had to look up “long heel”; thanks for key word search). Have yet to get the perfect crimp but it is getting better. Ripped out blockers work just fine for trial fit boots. Too late to correct the SH-1 as I am now side seaming. All of the boots made so far have been large. Current pair is 10-11 EEE (wide) with a narrow heel.

I am going to follow Erick’s advice and really get serious with my home made buffalo’s around the shank and maybe a little stronger pull toward the toe.

Never made a pair of four piece boots. When I need to I think I will go to a teacher. This re-inventing of the wheel is slow and painful yet interesting. I don’t see much difference between a sewed together vamp and front top and a one piece crimped front blocker. It appears to me that once the crimping is done a two piece boot is easier to assemble than a four piece boot. Maybe that is why the “Old Guys” did it that way.

BTW…..This forum and the advice is certainly worth more than 2 cents…Thanks Again.

Chuck
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Re: Lasting

#50 Post by dw »

Chuck,

Well, for what it's worth, I think that locating the break two inches above the "throat line" (if that terminology has any meaning for you) is too high. It may be the reason, however, that the SH-1" formula works for you at all.

That said, locating the break is one of several most critical factors in making full cuts. The others are the angle of the crimp, the throat line formula....and, oh yeah, the trim angle on the side of the front (and back--from the throatline down. These four factors are so intimately entangled that lowering the break even a quarter inch, for instance, can make all the difference in the world--for good or bad. And the same can be said for the other critical factors--change one thing and you change everything.

When I was teaching myself to make two piece boots (and I'm still learning), I decided I would keep the throat line formula from my four piece boots. So that only left break point, the trim angle and crimp angle to fool with. The crimp angle foxed me for a lot of years although I made some successful boots using the same 75* crimp angle that I use for dress cuts--usually with a wider throat. However, I finally resolved that issue in my mind and adopted a crimp angle coleer to 90*.

Studying old castor patterns convinced me that trim angles were the key to different heel heights and just plain experimenting finally got me to a break point that I am happy with.

Ultimately all these factors have to come together in such a way as to allow the boot to settle on the cone of the last far enough but not too far; reduce the amount of leather from the high instep point to the insole level at the sideseam, so that the "wedge" of the cone will draw the leather tight across the throat and pull the *top* of the counter in, but not so much as to pull the **bottom** of the counter forward; and allow the rest of the forepart of the blocker to draft in tight to the wood everywhere else, while allowing the foot normal entry into the boot. And all at the same time keeping the boot upright, the sideseams straight and so forth. And even more importantly do all this with quality leathers...not upholstery or garment cow.

I think...hope...I have all this in balance now. The only real problem I have on a consistent basis that I cannot seem to resolve is locating the toe bug. I attribute this to the way in which the leather distorts and configures as it is being blocked. I think that it may never be possible to locate the toe bug with accuracy and consistency for the several types of leather that I use for full cuts, as each has its own stretch properties. No matter, I have a work around. But it does illustrate the complexity of making this style of boot. If you've never made four piece boots, you don't know what you are missing! Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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