DW, I was actually trying NOT to stretch the texture out of the leather, wanting to keep the texture the same over the whole vamp for appearances. It sounds like this is not possible (??).
If I want to try spritzing the toe area, should I do it on the grain side, or peel back the vamp and do it on the flesh side, or both? Thanks.
Jenny
Lasting
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jenny_fleishman
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I kind of figured that, which is why I brought it up. But the texture on that leather is "artificial." It is put on after the leather has been tanned...usually by tumbling, sometimes by imprinting. But just looking at it I can tell that the texture is not natural nor permanent. I try to avoid leathers like that. It's often a sign of a cheap leather (although not necessarily) and certainly a sign that the leather is not suitable for shoes--at least not without recognition that such "character" will, by necessity, be pulled out.
No, it is not possible to keep that texture while lasting. Perhaps the commercial outfits have some way to preserve it--fancy Italian steam cabinets, etc.--I don't know (nor care) but it really comes down to the choice you, yourself, are now facing: Do you preserve the texture or last the shoe? One or the other has to take precedent.
As for spritzing...if it were me, I'd peel the whole forepart back and spritz from the flesh side. Be sure that you are tacked and firmly anchored at or just forward of the ball before releasing the toe. Then when the leather is pretty wet...enough to make it more pliable...re-last the toe starting dead center and working your way around, alternating one side then the other. Don't try to clear all the pipes on the first pass just be sure what drafts you do take are taut. Then go back and work your pipes, again alternating from one side of the center to the other. Clear all that leather and all those pipes (don't forget the wrinkles) off the "upper." It should be as smooth and free from excess as right over the top of the toe.
If the leather will absorb moisture from the grainside, spritz that side too. The only caveat (not applicable in this case) is to watch out for water stains on light coloured leathers...but this is true no matter which side you spritz from--another reason I like lasting wet.
I am not sitting in your chair but just from what I can see, you can do this. The leather gives every indication that it is amenable, the toe is wide enough (imagine trying to do this on a narrow round--cockroach killer--toe), and you do have enough lasting margin. No worries!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I kind of figured that, which is why I brought it up. But the texture on that leather is "artificial." It is put on after the leather has been tanned...usually by tumbling, sometimes by imprinting. But just looking at it I can tell that the texture is not natural nor permanent. I try to avoid leathers like that. It's often a sign of a cheap leather (although not necessarily) and certainly a sign that the leather is not suitable for shoes--at least not without recognition that such "character" will, by necessity, be pulled out.
No, it is not possible to keep that texture while lasting. Perhaps the commercial outfits have some way to preserve it--fancy Italian steam cabinets, etc.--I don't know (nor care) but it really comes down to the choice you, yourself, are now facing: Do you preserve the texture or last the shoe? One or the other has to take precedent.
As for spritzing...if it were me, I'd peel the whole forepart back and spritz from the flesh side. Be sure that you are tacked and firmly anchored at or just forward of the ball before releasing the toe. Then when the leather is pretty wet...enough to make it more pliable...re-last the toe starting dead center and working your way around, alternating one side then the other. Don't try to clear all the pipes on the first pass just be sure what drafts you do take are taut. Then go back and work your pipes, again alternating from one side of the center to the other. Clear all that leather and all those pipes (don't forget the wrinkles) off the "upper." It should be as smooth and free from excess as right over the top of the toe.
If the leather will absorb moisture from the grainside, spritz that side too. The only caveat (not applicable in this case) is to watch out for water stains on light coloured leathers...but this is true no matter which side you spritz from--another reason I like lasting wet.
I am not sitting in your chair but just from what I can see, you can do this. The leather gives every indication that it is amenable, the toe is wide enough (imagine trying to do this on a narrow round--cockroach killer--toe), and you do have enough lasting margin. No worries!
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Thanks, DW. A question about tacks:
The tacks I am using are about 3/8'" long (I think they are size 2), and the only way I can avoid hammering my fingers is to press them into the vamp and insole leather until they stand up on their own, and I can let go of them before hammering! Is there a better technique, or should I be using longer tacks?
P.S. It IS cheap leather, really cheap!
Jenny
The tacks I am using are about 3/8'" long (I think they are size 2), and the only way I can avoid hammering my fingers is to press them into the vamp and insole leather until they stand up on their own, and I can let go of them before hammering! Is there a better technique, or should I be using longer tacks?
P.S. It IS cheap leather, really cheap!
Jenny
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paul_k
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I'll start off by saying, it looks like you're workin' real clean, there. I know you've been giving it your all. Like DW says, you can do this. You are encouraging to all of us.
Because lasting toes is what I'm up to, yesterday and today, I'll jump in with a comment.
Use 5 oz. tacks. You'll love how easy they are to handle. And more than one shoemaker uses 'em over and over, as long as they have a point. You're also less likely to stab your fingers, never fun. Of course, all this is different if you wax your mustach
.
Remember, it's a process. Each detail is part of the whole. Each pair is part of your resume'.
PK
I'll start off by saying, it looks like you're workin' real clean, there. I know you've been giving it your all. Like DW says, you can do this. You are encouraging to all of us.
Because lasting toes is what I'm up to, yesterday and today, I'll jump in with a comment.
Use 5 oz. tacks. You'll love how easy they are to handle. And more than one shoemaker uses 'em over and over, as long as they have a point. You're also less likely to stab your fingers, never fun. Of course, all this is different if you wax your mustach
. Remember, it's a process. Each detail is part of the whole. Each pair is part of your resume'.
PK
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Does everyone here last with their shoe last upside down on a jack stand? If so, do you have to take if off the stand frequently to get a look at the upper, or how else can you see how you're doing?
With my homemade last I am holding it in my lap and have to grip it tightly as I pull on the leather, which is rather hard on my hands.
I might be able to come up with a system to mount the last on some sort of stand if I really tried--but still working on building my buffing/grinding station, which is coming along nicely, but slowly!
Jenny
With my homemade last I am holding it in my lap and have to grip it tightly as I pull on the leather, which is rather hard on my hands.
I might be able to come up with a system to mount the last on some sort of stand if I really tried--but still working on building my buffing/grinding station, which is coming along nicely, but slowly!
Jenny
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william
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
You could use a medieval method for holding your last secure while you pull the upper into place. - You need an adjustablle strap that will loop around the last and passes over a piece of wood that you hold down with your feet. You adjust the length of the strap to hold the last firmly against your knees/lap.
William
You could use a medieval method for holding your last secure while you pull the upper into place. - You need an adjustablle strap that will loop around the last and passes over a piece of wood that you hold down with your feet. You adjust the length of the strap to hold the last firmly against your knees/lap.
William
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erickgeer
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I echo Paul and DW, you're definitely getting there- while being tentative on the pulls, you are spreading out the leather reasonably even- so it will be very easy to finish.
One thing that helps in clearing the pipes is to make sure to pull up, before pulling back towards the insole, otherwise you are going over a corner that restricts where the leather is stretching and will make it harder to clear the big pipes. As DW said- say goodbye to the texture of the leather.
You need something to stabilize the last while you are lasting- so you are only concerned with the pulls and minimal effort in keeping the last from spinning (if not using the strap method). It is possible to make a lasting stand out of hardware store findings- somewhere there is a picture of one variation (probably in the archives of this thread) also- if you have a vise bolted to a workbench- get the biggest phillips head screwdriver you can find and clamp it in the vise- not the best solution (as they're never big enough) but it works in a pinch.
Yes, (if none have answered yet) you have to turn over the shoe frequently to check for centre. It's one of the most frustrating things to have your lasting going really good (apparently) and then turning over the work and discovering that ten pulls back you pulled too far to one side.
Holding the leather in place with the pincers, then using the free hand to place the tack and hammer- the bur on the end of the tacks with "just" penetrate to hold itself upright so you don't need a third hand. In areas where I don't need to pull pipes- I like to use a medium duty staple gun (I think J21 staples? I'll have to check) they make a small hole, and don't sink all the way in making them ideal for easy removal. I tried using a brad nailer, so I could get the precision of a single tack, but the holes were gigantic and the thing literaly fell apart one day (like something out of a cartoon).
Hope these thoughts help,
Erick
I echo Paul and DW, you're definitely getting there- while being tentative on the pulls, you are spreading out the leather reasonably even- so it will be very easy to finish.
One thing that helps in clearing the pipes is to make sure to pull up, before pulling back towards the insole, otherwise you are going over a corner that restricts where the leather is stretching and will make it harder to clear the big pipes. As DW said- say goodbye to the texture of the leather.
You need something to stabilize the last while you are lasting- so you are only concerned with the pulls and minimal effort in keeping the last from spinning (if not using the strap method). It is possible to make a lasting stand out of hardware store findings- somewhere there is a picture of one variation (probably in the archives of this thread) also- if you have a vise bolted to a workbench- get the biggest phillips head screwdriver you can find and clamp it in the vise- not the best solution (as they're never big enough) but it works in a pinch.
Yes, (if none have answered yet) you have to turn over the shoe frequently to check for centre. It's one of the most frustrating things to have your lasting going really good (apparently) and then turning over the work and discovering that ten pulls back you pulled too far to one side.
Holding the leather in place with the pincers, then using the free hand to place the tack and hammer- the bur on the end of the tacks with "just" penetrate to hold itself upright so you don't need a third hand. In areas where I don't need to pull pipes- I like to use a medium duty staple gun (I think J21 staples? I'll have to check) they make a small hole, and don't sink all the way in making them ideal for easy removal. I tried using a brad nailer, so I could get the precision of a single tack, but the holes were gigantic and the thing literaly fell apart one day (like something out of a cartoon).
Hope these thoughts help,
Erick
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
I am thinking about a vise and found this one on the Woodcraft site. It particulary interests me because it swivels all ways so it might be possible to flip the shoe over to look at the top of it without taking the last out of the vise.
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4309
I don't know if the vise is heavy duty enough, and would stand up to the hammering. Also haven't quite figured out how to clamp the last firmly in the vise, and I'd probably have to bolt the thing to a table (I doubt the suction would hold it.) Any thoughts?
Erick, not sure what you are describing with the screw driver. Would I need to drill a hole in the last from the ankle toward the bottom of the heel and then put it on the screwdriver? (I'm not sure if I could avoid the bolts holding the two parts of my lasts together.)
William, the medieval method sounds like a possibility, but probably not as rigid as I'd ideally prefer. Might give it a try, though.
Jenny
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4309
I don't know if the vise is heavy duty enough, and would stand up to the hammering. Also haven't quite figured out how to clamp the last firmly in the vise, and I'd probably have to bolt the thing to a table (I doubt the suction would hold it.) Any thoughts?
Erick, not sure what you are describing with the screw driver. Would I need to drill a hole in the last from the ankle toward the bottom of the heel and then put it on the screwdriver? (I'm not sure if I could avoid the bolts holding the two parts of my lasts together.)
William, the medieval method sounds like a possibility, but probably not as rigid as I'd ideally prefer. Might give it a try, though.
Jenny
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Nice job, looks much better than my first attempt
Is this your fitting shoe or are you working on the final product? I've been out of touch so I'm not sure how fast you are going. The leather seems kind of nice for a disposable fitting shoe but for arguments sake I will assume this is the fitting shoe that's not lined. Let me know if I'm wrong.
The lasting margin looks fine. There may be a little more stretch in the leather, if not leave it a little longer for your “real” shoe since you will have to “bridge” over the lining glued to the insole to have some of the leather glued to the insole, not just on the lining (in case the lining is not of the best quality and easily de-laminates.)
The fitting shoe I make inside out, what I mean, I use the leather with the grain side in since it's not lined. Having the suede side to the last may make it harder to last smoothly. The suede does not slide over the last easily. Also when you put it on your foot, the grain will feel like the lining will on the final shoe and makes it easier to get into the shoe and see how it really fits. I also use talcum powder (or baby powder if you don't mind you shoes smelling like a babies behind
) generously over the last before starting the lasting. This does not work well when you wet last since it will turn the powder in some type of mud like substance.
I start lasting by putting the the topline up high on the last, about ½ to 1 inch over where I want it to end up. Take the upper on the inside and outside of the toe and hold it straight on the last looking at it from above. Hold the toe in place, flip the last over and put 1 nail in at the very front. Than I go on the inside and outside ball, pull it nice and tight to the last. This is the time when you need to get the upper nice and straight. You flip it over a couple of times to make sure it's straight. Once you have those 3 nails in place you use your hand and your feeling in stead of you eyes. By holding the last upside down and feeling the tension on the leather as you hold the shoe you know what you pull and how hard. It's not a contest to pulling the hardest, it's “smart” pulling with your pincers.
If you put the last in a stand while lasting you can't feel what the leather does as well so you will have to turn the shoe over much more to do the visual inspection. I realize that this method is based on experience but try to feel the leather, it will tell you a lot more than when you just turn it over and look at it.
Since the back is up higher there will be a tendency for an “air bubble” under the vamp when you first tack down the inside and outside ball, pull hard enough to get it tight to the last. Undo the front tack and re-adjust the tension on that nail. Pull in the middle of the fold and tack down, both inside and outside of the toe, find the middle again and tack again. Before I go any further on the front I work on the back. Lower the back of the upper to the point where you want it on the last and you may even put a nail in to hold it and keep it from being pulled down. Work in the arch to pull the leather nice and tight and go all the way around the heel. Than finish the front as described earlier, find the middle of the fold and pull, find the middle of the fold and pull etc.
I like to use a staple gun, with my lasting pincers I pull the leather, get it to smooth up to the insole, once I pull it around the insole I get another wrinkle. Her I take the staple gun, Slide it from the insole edge in about ¼ inch and staple it down. Works well for me.
By putting the back up higher, working on the front and than lowering it you get a better grip on the topline. Works much better on a low shoe than a high shoe / boot cause that last is fuller in the area that would otherwise be over the topline.
To hold the shoe in place, I like to use the medieval method where I use an adjustable strap, like a belt, under my shoe (the one I'm wearing, not making) and over my knee with enough slack to clamp the last in between. With the foot position you can adjust the tension on the belt. I don't last like this, the strap will be in the way, it does work well for inseaming. I hold it with one hand in between my knees and work the pincers with the other hand. Not sure how to explain it, it's just a natural motion for me.
Jenny, I'm not sure the vice you pointed out will work, doesn't seem sturdy enough. This is not a great picture but this vice is specifically for lasts, not that I would advice you to get one of those since they sell for over 2100 Euro's but it may give you an idea what may work. I work out of my lap and that is very doable, in fact I prefer it but I guess it's just how your trained and what your used to.
Time to hit the sack, got an early morning coming. Keep up the good work, your doing great and I find it very brave to share your first attempt with the world. Sure there are many people here that make very intimidating looking boots and shoes but I'd love to see their first attempts. I would show mine if it didn't end up in the trash can, that's how bad it was.
Just my
Rob
Nice job, looks much better than my first attempt
Is this your fitting shoe or are you working on the final product? I've been out of touch so I'm not sure how fast you are going. The leather seems kind of nice for a disposable fitting shoe but for arguments sake I will assume this is the fitting shoe that's not lined. Let me know if I'm wrong.
The lasting margin looks fine. There may be a little more stretch in the leather, if not leave it a little longer for your “real” shoe since you will have to “bridge” over the lining glued to the insole to have some of the leather glued to the insole, not just on the lining (in case the lining is not of the best quality and easily de-laminates.)
The fitting shoe I make inside out, what I mean, I use the leather with the grain side in since it's not lined. Having the suede side to the last may make it harder to last smoothly. The suede does not slide over the last easily. Also when you put it on your foot, the grain will feel like the lining will on the final shoe and makes it easier to get into the shoe and see how it really fits. I also use talcum powder (or baby powder if you don't mind you shoes smelling like a babies behind
) generously over the last before starting the lasting. This does not work well when you wet last since it will turn the powder in some type of mud like substance. I start lasting by putting the the topline up high on the last, about ½ to 1 inch over where I want it to end up. Take the upper on the inside and outside of the toe and hold it straight on the last looking at it from above. Hold the toe in place, flip the last over and put 1 nail in at the very front. Than I go on the inside and outside ball, pull it nice and tight to the last. This is the time when you need to get the upper nice and straight. You flip it over a couple of times to make sure it's straight. Once you have those 3 nails in place you use your hand and your feeling in stead of you eyes. By holding the last upside down and feeling the tension on the leather as you hold the shoe you know what you pull and how hard. It's not a contest to pulling the hardest, it's “smart” pulling with your pincers.
If you put the last in a stand while lasting you can't feel what the leather does as well so you will have to turn the shoe over much more to do the visual inspection. I realize that this method is based on experience but try to feel the leather, it will tell you a lot more than when you just turn it over and look at it.
Since the back is up higher there will be a tendency for an “air bubble” under the vamp when you first tack down the inside and outside ball, pull hard enough to get it tight to the last. Undo the front tack and re-adjust the tension on that nail. Pull in the middle of the fold and tack down, both inside and outside of the toe, find the middle again and tack again. Before I go any further on the front I work on the back. Lower the back of the upper to the point where you want it on the last and you may even put a nail in to hold it and keep it from being pulled down. Work in the arch to pull the leather nice and tight and go all the way around the heel. Than finish the front as described earlier, find the middle of the fold and pull, find the middle of the fold and pull etc.
I like to use a staple gun, with my lasting pincers I pull the leather, get it to smooth up to the insole, once I pull it around the insole I get another wrinkle. Her I take the staple gun, Slide it from the insole edge in about ¼ inch and staple it down. Works well for me.
By putting the back up higher, working on the front and than lowering it you get a better grip on the topline. Works much better on a low shoe than a high shoe / boot cause that last is fuller in the area that would otherwise be over the topline.
To hold the shoe in place, I like to use the medieval method where I use an adjustable strap, like a belt, under my shoe (the one I'm wearing, not making) and over my knee with enough slack to clamp the last in between. With the foot position you can adjust the tension on the belt. I don't last like this, the strap will be in the way, it does work well for inseaming. I hold it with one hand in between my knees and work the pincers with the other hand. Not sure how to explain it, it's just a natural motion for me.
Jenny, I'm not sure the vice you pointed out will work, doesn't seem sturdy enough. This is not a great picture but this vice is specifically for lasts, not that I would advice you to get one of those since they sell for over 2100 Euro's but it may give you an idea what may work. I work out of my lap and that is very doable, in fact I prefer it but I guess it's just how your trained and what your used to.
Time to hit the sack, got an early morning coming. Keep up the good work, your doing great and I find it very brave to share your first attempt with the world. Sure there are many people here that make very intimidating looking boots and shoes but I'd love to see their first attempts. I would show mine if it didn't end up in the trash can, that's how bad it was.
Just my
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Most commercial lasts come with a "thimble" mounted in the top of the heel. You can add a thimble to your poured lasts by inserting a 2" piece of galvanized pipe with a half inch inside diameter as you pour...or even afterwards simply by drilling out a socket for the pipe. In either case a very thin section should protrude from the surface of the last when the last is complete.
Once you have the thimble in the last it is easy enough to build a lapjack upon which to last and even inseam.
It is clear from your description that you are not using a thimble in your lasts or any sort of jack. That's a rough old road. I know that many shoemakers...and very good ones too...don't use a jack--preferring to last and inseam on their knee with just a stirrup to support the work. Once you get used to that process, I suppose it is both convenient and familiar to the point that there is no incentive to try anything else. I've tried and done it both ways. In my opinion, there is no good reason not to use a lapjack if you can. You will not lift and turn the shoe over more or less times to check alignment with a jack than without. And although someone like Robert...who is very experienced and knowledgeable...may be able to tell by feel alone whether the leather has been drawn down tight enough or not enough, and whether a shoe has been drafted too much on one side or the other, it is perhaps wise, as a beginner to rely a little more on visual input until you develop those more highly refined senses.
I have included a diagram of a simple lapjack that can be made from a pick handle and a collar/spindle arrangement. The collar must be fabricated to fit the pick handle but any machine shop can do that pretty reasonably. The collar itself is quarter inch steel and the spindle base is half inch, drill and tapped, and the spindle itself is threaded into the spindle base and then welded.
This all may not help you in the short run but...for the future it may be something you want to look at.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Most commercial lasts come with a "thimble" mounted in the top of the heel. You can add a thimble to your poured lasts by inserting a 2" piece of galvanized pipe with a half inch inside diameter as you pour...or even afterwards simply by drilling out a socket for the pipe. In either case a very thin section should protrude from the surface of the last when the last is complete.
Once you have the thimble in the last it is easy enough to build a lapjack upon which to last and even inseam.
It is clear from your description that you are not using a thimble in your lasts or any sort of jack. That's a rough old road. I know that many shoemakers...and very good ones too...don't use a jack--preferring to last and inseam on their knee with just a stirrup to support the work. Once you get used to that process, I suppose it is both convenient and familiar to the point that there is no incentive to try anything else. I've tried and done it both ways. In my opinion, there is no good reason not to use a lapjack if you can. You will not lift and turn the shoe over more or less times to check alignment with a jack than without. And although someone like Robert...who is very experienced and knowledgeable...may be able to tell by feel alone whether the leather has been drawn down tight enough or not enough, and whether a shoe has been drafted too much on one side or the other, it is perhaps wise, as a beginner to rely a little more on visual input until you develop those more highly refined senses.
I have included a diagram of a simple lapjack that can be made from a pick handle and a collar/spindle arrangement. The collar must be fabricated to fit the pick handle but any machine shop can do that pretty reasonably. The collar itself is quarter inch steel and the spindle base is half inch, drill and tapped, and the spindle itself is threaded into the spindle base and then welded.
This all may not help you in the short run but...for the future it may be something you want to look at.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: Lasting
BTW, the lapjack is held between the feet while seated and the feet are held closely together to brace the base of the jack. The knees squeeze together and hold the work and the top of the jack. When the last is mounted on the jack, the forepart of the last should rest comfortably on the knee...so it may be that you will need to adjust the overall height/length of the lapjack from my diagram. Often a stirrup is used in conjunction with the shoe and last being mounted on the lapjack, but even without the stirrup, it is a remarkably stable configuration and considerable torque (in any direction) may be applied without fear or loss of control.
Here's a photo of one of mine that has served me for nearly 35 years.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Here's a photo of one of mine that has served me for nearly 35 years.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
DW, thanks. Sounds like the next best thing to Suzanne Somers' Thighmaster 
One problem is that I have a bolt going diagonally through my last holding the two pieces together, and I think it would get in the way of putting the thimble in the last.
Jenny
One problem is that I have a bolt going diagonally through my last holding the two pieces together, and I think it would get in the way of putting the thimble in the last.
Jenny
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
That could be a problem, no doubt. That's why I suggested that you consider doing this on the next pair of lasts you make. When I was pouring lasts, I always put in a thimble even though I too used a diagonal bolt to hold the last together.
Just a thought for you as well as any others who are looking in on this discussion...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
That could be a problem, no doubt. That's why I suggested that you consider doing this on the next pair of lasts you make. When I was pouring lasts, I always put in a thimble even though I too used a diagonal bolt to hold the last together.
Just a thought for you as well as any others who are looking in on this discussion...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
DW, not sure I understand. How would putting the thimble in when pouring solve the problem of the thimble being in the way of the path of the diagonal bolt?
Jenny
Jenny
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
I hope I did not give the impression that I only turn the shoe over once and the rest is based on feeling, I just remember that for the longest time I turned the shoe over hundreds of times during lasting and was still unhappy with the result. Once something clicked and I starting paying much more attention to the tension on the leather as I pull it, you can't see it since the shoe is upside down but you can certainly feel it. Now I make sure my first 3 nails are in with the upper straight on the last and from there I can ALMOST do it blindfolded with one hand tight behind my back (if only I had an extra hand to take a picture of that!
)
This advice was probably not all that suitable for Jenny specifically but for anyone with a little more experience I would advice to pay close attention to the tensions in the leather. Once I figured this out it made lasting a lot easier and more enjoyable.
I do still end up with an occasional crooked shoe but more often than not it is in the patterns, than I have to work a lot harder on the lasting to get the shoe on straight.
Nice description on the lapjack. Is this a DW original? I may just get myself one of those, I can see it come in handy every so often. Not that I have that many lasts with thimbles but why not give it a shot?
Jenny, you may not even have to insert a piece of pipe in your lasts, just drill a hole as close to the center of the cone as you can get without hitting the bolt that hold the last together. Make the diameter only slightly larger than the spike on your jack. My experience is that on most custom lasts less than 10 pairs of shoes are made, not having the galvanized pipe inserted will not damage the last so much that you can not use it a bunch of times. Once you start running production and re-use the same lasts all the time you may need the reinforcement of the pipe.
Diner is served, got to go
Rob
I hope I did not give the impression that I only turn the shoe over once and the rest is based on feeling, I just remember that for the longest time I turned the shoe over hundreds of times during lasting and was still unhappy with the result. Once something clicked and I starting paying much more attention to the tension on the leather as I pull it, you can't see it since the shoe is upside down but you can certainly feel it. Now I make sure my first 3 nails are in with the upper straight on the last and from there I can ALMOST do it blindfolded with one hand tight behind my back (if only I had an extra hand to take a picture of that!
) This advice was probably not all that suitable for Jenny specifically but for anyone with a little more experience I would advice to pay close attention to the tensions in the leather. Once I figured this out it made lasting a lot easier and more enjoyable.
I do still end up with an occasional crooked shoe but more often than not it is in the patterns, than I have to work a lot harder on the lasting to get the shoe on straight.
Nice description on the lapjack. Is this a DW original? I may just get myself one of those, I can see it come in handy every so often. Not that I have that many lasts with thimbles but why not give it a shot?
Jenny, you may not even have to insert a piece of pipe in your lasts, just drill a hole as close to the center of the cone as you can get without hitting the bolt that hold the last together. Make the diameter only slightly larger than the spike on your jack. My experience is that on most custom lasts less than 10 pairs of shoes are made, not having the galvanized pipe inserted will not damage the last so much that you can not use it a bunch of times. Once you start running production and re-use the same lasts all the time you may need the reinforcement of the pipe.
Diner is served, got to go
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Robert,
Yeah, I know what you mean about about paying close attention to tensions. Seems like the older I get and the more I do this, I find ways to refine what I'm doing...or maybe I should say that I find that with regard to what I have been doing, I just haven't paid enough attention in the past.
Bootmakers have a difficult time with two things during lasting: lining up the sideseams--all kinds of build up "solutions" can throw this off; and getting the tongue centered over the cone so that it not only sits upright (no leaning, please) but so that the quarter curves are aligned with each other on either side of the cone. Sometimes these two problems are so closely related that you can get one right but ont both. I think I am finally...after 35 years...getting a real handle on handling both of those problems and it's all in the lasting.
Well, yes the lapjack is a DW original...as far as I know. You know, when you are of a certain age, you're dead certain that ideas such as this originated with you...heck, you're dead certain about a lot of stuff...stuff you're not so sure about in later years. I don't know that I didn't see something like it at my teachers shop and just made my own modifications.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Yeah, I know what you mean about about paying close attention to tensions. Seems like the older I get and the more I do this, I find ways to refine what I'm doing...or maybe I should say that I find that with regard to what I have been doing, I just haven't paid enough attention in the past.
Bootmakers have a difficult time with two things during lasting: lining up the sideseams--all kinds of build up "solutions" can throw this off; and getting the tongue centered over the cone so that it not only sits upright (no leaning, please) but so that the quarter curves are aligned with each other on either side of the cone. Sometimes these two problems are so closely related that you can get one right but ont both. I think I am finally...after 35 years...getting a real handle on handling both of those problems and it's all in the lasting.
Well, yes the lapjack is a DW original...as far as I know. You know, when you are of a certain age, you're dead certain that ideas such as this originated with you...heck, you're dead certain about a lot of stuff...stuff you're not so sure about in later years. I don't know that I didn't see something like it at my teachers shop and just made my own modifications.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
All I meant was that with careful planning and perhaps a different type of bolt (?)it can be done. I am not altogether sure how you are doing it but I did do it on all of mine.
Robert makes a good point about custom lasts not being used that often. Sometimes it is as simple as the maker refining his idea of fit. Sometimes it's simply moving on to more professional or more appropriate equipment. If you've gotten this far, ten to one you'll find little niggling things about the fit that you don't like--ways you could have done it different or better...and you'll make another pair of lasts to replace these. Probably just drilling a hole would give you the added control that you need. If you've seen a commercial last, you know where it goes.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
All I meant was that with careful planning and perhaps a different type of bolt (?)it can be done. I am not altogether sure how you are doing it but I did do it on all of mine.
Robert makes a good point about custom lasts not being used that often. Sometimes it is as simple as the maker refining his idea of fit. Sometimes it's simply moving on to more professional or more appropriate equipment. If you've gotten this far, ten to one you'll find little niggling things about the fit that you don't like--ways you could have done it different or better...and you'll make another pair of lasts to replace these. Probably just drilling a hole would give you the added control that you need. If you've seen a commercial last, you know where it goes.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Just re-lasted the toe area of the shoe. It looks much better, but still has some fine surface wrinkles (not pipes) going down toward the feather edge. The pipes where the upper wraps under the insole are very thick, and I'm thinking I'm going to have trouble skiving them off smoothly and evenly enough without having the skived area visible at the edge.
I may re-last the toe area one more time tomorrow and do some hammering on it. I did spray the leather with water tonight before lasting. The grain side is rather water repellent, so I mainly did it on the flesh side. I found it dried rather quickly, so I kept re-wetting it.
Jenny
I may re-last the toe area one more time tomorrow and do some hammering on it. I did spray the leather with water tonight before lasting. The grain side is rather water repellent, so I mainly did it on the flesh side. I found it dried rather quickly, so I kept re-wetting it.
Jenny
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bultsad
Re: Lasting
DW,
I figured I would jog your memory a little here. The lapjack you pictured here and the one we have used for about the same amount of time (about 35 years) both seemed to originate out of Mike Ives' shop in Billings. This would stand to reason since you and my father in law, Monte Birdsall, were both taught bootmaking there. Who knows where he came up with it? Probably the Western boot co. where he went to learn.
I figured I would jog your memory a little here. The lapjack you pictured here and the one we have used for about the same amount of time (about 35 years) both seemed to originate out of Mike Ives' shop in Billings. This would stand to reason since you and my father in law, Monte Birdsall, were both taught bootmaking there. Who knows where he came up with it? Probably the Western boot co. where he went to learn.
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Updated pictures:
Can't seem to get all the fine creases out around the toe, although at least I think they don't qualify as pipes. It seems impossible...
I expect trouble skiving the pipes off, as there are bulges around the featherline. Any suggestions how to work around that edge? Am I doing something wrong, or is the leather likely not stretchy enough?
Thanks for any tips!
Jenny
Can't seem to get all the fine creases out around the toe, although at least I think they don't qualify as pipes. It seems impossible...
I expect trouble skiving the pipes off, as there are bulges around the featherline. Any suggestions how to work around that edge? Am I doing something wrong, or is the leather likely not stretchy enough?
Thanks for any tips!
Jenny
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jim,
Well, thanks for that. 
Seriously, I don't mind. Even after I answered Robert's post I kept trying to remember if I had picked that up from Mike or not. Fact is, I still have some notebooks that I filled when I was learning from Mike and I dug through them looking for a diagram or a description. Nothing.
That said, I guess I shouldn't have been so quick to take credit even though yours is the first lapjack like mine I've seen. I've seen heavy pipes with spindles mounted on tire rims and all kinds of stuff but nothing like what you and I are using.
All of which goes to prove that even at 60...there's truth in the old saying that it's the memory that's the first to go.
I hope the fact that I allowed as how I might have picked it up from Mike in my original post to Robert, earns me a least some points.
I never did hear Mike say that he'd learned from Western Boot Company though. That's a new one on me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, thanks for that.
Seriously, I don't mind. Even after I answered Robert's post I kept trying to remember if I had picked that up from Mike or not. Fact is, I still have some notebooks that I filled when I was learning from Mike and I dug through them looking for a diagram or a description. Nothing. That said, I guess I shouldn't have been so quick to take credit even though yours is the first lapjack like mine I've seen. I've seen heavy pipes with spindles mounted on tire rims and all kinds of stuff but nothing like what you and I are using.
All of which goes to prove that even at 60...there's truth in the old saying that it's the memory that's the first to go.
I hope the fact that I allowed as how I might have picked it up from Mike in my original post to Robert, earns me a least some points.
I never did hear Mike say that he'd learned from Western Boot Company though. That's a new one on me.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Well you're doing fine--anytime you make progress and gain some understanding...you've gained.
I don't know that you can get rid of the fine wrinkles now. I believe with all sincerity that they could have been originally eliminated...but for your first time you've done pretty good. Two things:
First, each of the pipes that you have drawn onto the insole could be pulled and tacked down. Like I said before you simply grasp the center of the pipe with a narrow jawed pincer and pull...hard...then drive a tack just ahead of the nose of the pincer. Again, center of the pipe.
Second, a wiping strip would lay all those pipes down flat...or flatter... but, personally, I like to have a bit more lasting margin to work a wiping strip properly.
One other thing...that may or may not help but it's to consider for your next pair: if you "hoist" the heel--last "seats up" IOW--then when you drive or pull the heel a lot of excess will be drawn back from the toe. It's kind of like drafting the toe from the opposite direction. I think Robert mentioned doing this in his post above.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well you're doing fine--anytime you make progress and gain some understanding...you've gained.
I don't know that you can get rid of the fine wrinkles now. I believe with all sincerity that they could have been originally eliminated...but for your first time you've done pretty good. Two things:
First, each of the pipes that you have drawn onto the insole could be pulled and tacked down. Like I said before you simply grasp the center of the pipe with a narrow jawed pincer and pull...hard...then drive a tack just ahead of the nose of the pincer. Again, center of the pipe.
Second, a wiping strip would lay all those pipes down flat...or flatter... but, personally, I like to have a bit more lasting margin to work a wiping strip properly.
One other thing...that may or may not help but it's to consider for your next pair: if you "hoist" the heel--last "seats up" IOW--then when you drive or pull the heel a lot of excess will be drawn back from the toe. It's kind of like drafting the toe from the opposite direction. I think Robert mentioned doing this in his post above.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Thanks, DW. re the use of the lasting pliers...if you are holding onto the leather with the jaws, how do you pound the tack in at the same time? After pulling the leather with the pliers, I've been holding the leather down in place with my finger and using the lasting pliers to pound the tack in. Do you use two pairs of lasting pliers, or a pliers and some sort of hammer?
Also...what is a wiping strip? (beside yet another thing I've never heard of!
)
Jenny
Also...what is a wiping strip? (beside yet another thing I've never heard of!
) Jenny
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bultsad
Re: Lasting
DW,
You did allow that you may have picked that up somewhere. No foul there. I have been in a few bootmaking shops myself and have not seen anything like the lapjack, (we call it a numb peg, I don't know why). I suppose that there are quite a few bootmakers watching that can weigh in on what they are using that resembles that particular peice of equipment.
While I am posting, may I say that I respect the time that you take with anyone that wants to post a question, and that frequently you go above and beyond the "call of duty".
Regards,
Jim
You did allow that you may have picked that up somewhere. No foul there. I have been in a few bootmaking shops myself and have not seen anything like the lapjack, (we call it a numb peg, I don't know why). I suppose that there are quite a few bootmakers watching that can weigh in on what they are using that resembles that particular peice of equipment.
While I am posting, may I say that I respect the time that you take with anyone that wants to post a question, and that frequently you go above and beyond the "call of duty".
Regards,
Jim
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bultsad
Re: Lasting
RE: The Western Boot Co.and Mike Ives. The story came directly from Monte Birdsall. Frequently different people will get different information from folks.
According to Monte, Mike Ives returned from WWII and went to Arizona where the Western Boot Co. was located. There he watched boots being made and was able to work and learn the trade. He went back to Billings MT and was making boots and teaching a few bootmakers.You and Monte are the only people I know he "trained". He made boots up until a few years ago as I understand. I have seen several pairs on people that have stopped to visit. If Mike is still alive he is in his mid 80's. He came to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally as recently as 4-5 years ago. He rode his bike from Billings. He seemed to be a resourceful guy that actually made a living building houses.
Add what you can DW. I would appreciate the history.
Jim
According to Monte, Mike Ives returned from WWII and went to Arizona where the Western Boot Co. was located. There he watched boots being made and was able to work and learn the trade. He went back to Billings MT and was making boots and teaching a few bootmakers.You and Monte are the only people I know he "trained". He made boots up until a few years ago as I understand. I have seen several pairs on people that have stopped to visit. If Mike is still alive he is in his mid 80's. He came to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally as recently as 4-5 years ago. He rode his bike from Billings. He seemed to be a resourceful guy that actually made a living building houses.
Add what you can DW. I would appreciate the history.
Jim