Lasting

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Re: Lasting

#801 Post by dw »

Final image in the seamless wholecut photo essay above now posted in the Gallery.
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Re: Lasting

#802 Post by martin »

Admirable work - thanks for posting in detail!
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Re: Lasting

#803 Post by dw »

Experimenting with pre-lasting...
20180607_073316 (1024 x 768).jpg
20180612_080002 (1024 x 768).jpg
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Re: Lasting

#804 Post by das »

I've always lasted my heel stiffeners separately, before stuffing (inserting) them into uppers between lining and outer shell. It only makes perfect sense IMO.
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Re: Lasting

#805 Post by dw »

I'm trying to block or pre-last everything I can. I pre-last the uppers entirely and then insert the pre-lasted / lasted stiffeners and side liners. Then I re-last everything. It all seems to go together much easier...like fitting a puzzle together.

This time around I'm even pre-lasting the toe stiffs and a seamless inside heel counter.
20180613_073846 (1024 x 768).jpg
I've done a couple of oxfords this way and while I was clumsy with the first one, the second was better, etc.. The above photos are all going to be for a derby so I'm not sure how it's going to work out but I never do anything but hung linings so I'm thinking it shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Lasting

#806 Post by leech77 »

Hi folks,
I wasn’t quite sure where to post this question, but here goes. I’ve been making some moccasins lately fairly similar to the Dyer/Quoddy ring boot. After watching a video on YouTube of the Quoddy work shop, I can see they do it WAY different from me. I’m constructing mine off the last and forcing it into the shoe when the stitching is done, while it looks like they sew at least the vamp stitching on the last. Does anyone know of any good books on the subject of making this type of moccasin? I’m using very thick and not very pliable (when dry) leather so it’s a little bit different than what we think of as a soft tanned moccasin. These are more the souliers du boeuf/ bottles sauvage style.
Thanks,
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Re: Lasting

#807 Post by das »

Can't find it now that I'm looking, but there's a longish (1 hr.?) B&W video on-line of an elderly French-Canadian man, probably made in the 1970s, making these, both as the low soulier d'boeuf, and high bottes de sauvage. The bottoms are wet-lasted on the last, then the toe plug is sewn in. There was a neat trick whereby he drew the toe up into shape with neat even puckers first, before lasting, by a draw-string method using a single thread. It was posted on the Shoemaking FB Forum several months ago, but no way I know to search FB.
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Re: Lasting

#808 Post by leech77 »

Yes! That’s Captain Harvey! I’ve seen his video. He cuts “gills” for lack of a better word on the inside of the vamp area to draws it up with a running stitch. I do mine more like he is doing. It’s a bit more time consuming, but it gets great results. I do a bit of a variation of this. I actually skive the sole/sides and toe area and the vamp and lay out my holes proportionately on each and punch them straight through with my awl. I’ll tie up the pieces at intervals (every five holes or so) then put the works on the last and stitch it up. I sew up the heel first so everything is snug. It works fine, but I’m just not as fast as the factory guys in the Quoddy video. I do however get faster with every pair I make. I suppose practice may be the key component I’m looking for!
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Re: Lasting

#809 Post by leech77 »

https://www.nfb.ca/film/bottes_sauvages/

Pretty neat video. The bottes must be comfortable because that kid can’t stop dancing at the end of the video :)
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Re: Lasting

#810 Post by nickb1 »

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but making my last pair of shoes I kept all the nails I used in the making, including the trial braceover version. This was the result:
Photo0288.jpg
They are from blocking the insole and lasting uppers, liners and toe puffs. 200g of steel. At present this is economically fairly meaningless. My last teacher told me that he had made about 2000 pairs of shoes so far, which would equate to about 400kg of waste steel, let's say about 2/3 of the way through his making career for the sake of argument. (he also said he was asked to straighten out the scrap nails as an apprentice, which I assume was one of those pranks that the old timers would play!) Probably less than £400 scrap value given the likely low quality of the steel.
But still ... it seems in the past shoemakers made do with a set of reusable tacks, and lasted the leather in such a way that relatively few of them penetrated through to the last. I've also seen pics of lasts from a retired Welsh clogmaker that had not a single mark in the bottoms, as he apparently used a drawstring technique for lasting, even with the heavy waxed kip that was then used, which I'm told had to be heated to make it flexible. Is anyone alive still capable of hand making shoes or boots in such a low waste manner? Perhaps @das would know of some pointers how to cut down on waste based on the historic techniques?
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Re: Lasting

#811 Post by das »

Nick, not exactly sure when the change from reusable tacks for insole blocking and lasting happened, and there was probably an overlap in both techniques. Best guess, c.1880-1900. Hasluck ('Bootmaking & Mending', 1895) still illustrates the reusable tacks. The disposable single-use tacks are shown in most of the earliest 20thc textbooks--long wire-like brad nails, driven, then bent over flat, so as not to catch or snag on the threads whilst sewing. From at least the 1600s lasting/blocking tacks were individually hand forged, and indeed reusable. Made of "Swedes" (malleable soft iron, they could be re-straightened). They had heads in the form of cubes, with one or more grooves cut round them to enable them to be easily withdrawn with nippers without bending or damaging them (see them illustrated my translation of Hartwig, linked to on the main HCC website, and on pp. 231 of my book 'AotS'). By the later 1800s this same form of reusable nail was still being sold in cast (soft) steel, and I've collected a few antique examples, often used to nail wooden scoop blocks to wood lasts. Thirty years making shoes in a museum, I have used these hand forged, cube-head tacks quite a lot. My observations are these: in full-time (5 days a week) production, if treated gingerly, 30-40 of them will last a shoemaker 3-4 years!; being soft iron they need frequent re-straightening, yes, and a few break each year due to metal fatigue. The points, particularly, are apt to break off. Being hand forged they are somewhat irregular, but the shanks must be perfectly round. If oval or faceted in any degree, they twist on extraction and are spoiled. Because they stand up proud of the lasting margin all round the upper, when welt sewing the thread is prone to catching/snagging on them, which is quite a nuisance. Also, if you have them made stout enough to hold-up well, they do make rather largish tack holes in the last, which they must penetrate to hold the lasted upper in place at each pull. If made finer, like the disposable drawn wire tacks, the shanks are too weak and they bend and break off too easily. So, there are trade-offs here. You may go 3+ years on but 30-40 tacks, but they are more damaging to your precious lasts than disposable wire tacks, and they grab your sewing threads at the least opportune moments, sometimes shredding or breaking the thread--at least robbing you of time untangling the fouled thread.
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Re: Lasting

#812 Post by nickb1 »

Thanks @das, very interesting! Disposable nails must have advantages or they would not have caught on, and I can imagine welting will be troublesome with the reusable tacks. I wonder if the drawstring method might somehow be adaptable to shoemaking however? I tried as an experiment with scrap leather, but was not able to get the cleats under the edge enough. For clog making I guess this does not matter since the upper does not extend under an insole.
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Re: Lasting

#813 Post by das »

Not sure I'd call it "draw string" exactly, but the hoary historical method of lasting uppers for turnshoes (lightweight throughout) was "bracing" instead of tacking. A stout single thread (a double works too) was passed zig-zag or crisscross fashion through the lasting margin on either side, and drawn up to pull the upper down tight to the last. After the sewing, the zig-zag "bracing" thread was cut, removed, the lasting margin trimmed down and the result, voila, zero tack holes or iron stains in the sole. Only downside, you can't replicate the traditional lasting pulls, sequence, or resultant lines of tension fore to aft in the upper you get with proper pincers and tacks. And "hoisting"/"horsing" uppers seats up is right out.
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Re: Lasting

#814 Post by nickb1 »

That's quite a few downsides!
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Re: Lasting

#815 Post by carsten »

das wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 am A stout single thread (a double works too) was passed zig-zag or crisscross fashion through the lasting margin on either side, and drawn up to pull the upper down tight to the last. After the sewing, the zig-zag "bracing" thread was cut, removed, the lasting margin trimmed down and the result, voila, zero tack holes or iron stains in the sole.

Wires appear to be used as well for lasting. Bertl, who makes very rugged double stitched Haferl shoes, published a picture on this method in his book. The wire is rather strong, looks like a 1mm diameter or so and is attached by only two nails. This way, he states, better wrinkle free tips can be realized and also tac holes are avoided. Furthermore he says that lifespan of the last can be extended significantly.

I am just not sure how this works exactly. The photo he published looks more or less like this. Unfortunately there is not much more description in the book. Maybe it works best for very strong upper leather and double stitching as the regular welting might interfere with the wire.

Does anybody know how to apply this method?
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Re: Lasting

#816 Post by dw »

AFAIK, (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) this is not a method for lasting per se, but rather for 'wiping' the toe. And it originated in the factory, perhaps as a result or as an adjunct to lasting with machines. I have most often seen it used on Goodyear welted footwear. And the 'string' was monofilament (virtually identical to fishing line) rather than wire.

I suspect that what is being illustrated in your drawing is a wiping technique...wherein the pipes and wrinkles are secured under the edge of the insole during the final pull over of the toe of the vamp...rather than a lasting technique, simply because the illustration depicts many holes in the holdfast. Which are probably unavoidable. Also don't believe that if this technique were being used to last the forepart ...lining, stiffener, and vamp...that it would work very well (or at all) in the absence of some other mitigating techniques, machine, or circumstances. (I seem to recall having run across a hand tool into which the monofilament was attached and then the whole gadget braced against the toe of the boot or shoe as the process began.)

So...re: wiping the toe....

Mike Ives (my original teacher) used a half inch strip of latigo to wipe the heel and a quarter inch strip of latigo to wipe the toe. And yes, it puts holes in the last but perhaps not as many as if the inch and a quarter long lasting nails currently in favour were being used.
toe nails.png
Nowadays, I use a piece of round shoe lace to do the same thing.

It requires that a rabbet (feather) be cut into the toe stiffener in much the same way that the feather is cut into the insole. I like to do that anyway. When the toe is pulled back over the stiffener, the shoelace is secured just forward of the joint (much like in your drawing). I use a small 18 gauge blued nail (with a head) that I get from Gurney (but I have samples of other nails that would work from other manufacturers). I use my left hand to do the toe wiping, so the anchor nail is driven through the upper and lining into the feather on the right hand side of the shoe (with the toe of the shoe away from you). Then I pull the shoelace tight...very tight...to where the feather begins to come around the front of the shoe. I nail the shoelace through the upper, stiffener (in the stiffener feather) and lining. Then across the front of the toe, pulling pipes and wrinkles and nailing...again into the feather. i anchor the shoe lace at the corner of the toe again and then secure the rest of the lace just behind the edge of the stiffener. Then I can go back and draft the excess leather, pipes and wrinkles from the side of the toe.
wiping toe_1.png
wiping toe_2.png
The same physical technique can be applied to the heel seat, to good effect, using a strip of latigo in lieu of the shoelace. Resulting in a very flat and neat heel seat area once the wiping strip is removed.
wiping heel.jpg
heel_seat_wiped jpg.jpg
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Re: Lasting

#817 Post by carsten »

Thank you for the great illustration DW. I learned that I have to look more into wiping the toe, however : Well I did the drawing since I did not find any picture freely available on the internet and I think I can not just post a scanned picture from the book.
So the holes that you see in my image were only to indicate prepunched holes of the holdfast for later inseaming and i forgot to draw one more nail on the tip... He writes on pages 196 (and I try to translate) "In order to remove the wrinkles at the toe area better, the tip should be lasted by means of a wire. For this the wire is attached on the left and right side of the ball. This way it is made sure that the inner sole / holdfast is not perforated by too many holes. Furthermore this is the best method to bring heavy leather into the form of the sharp tip of the haferl shoe" and on page 200: "Liningless uppers of a thickness of 2,5-3mm or more (so this is really quite rugged I think) are used steamed (=wet?) and are tacked only at the Heel . Further, he writes that the leather of the toe area is only pulled into the round form of the last by means of a wire. The upper is pulled in by a (and I describe it since I have no translation: in french they call it chien the cordonnier, which is a lasting clamp that has two pliers joined by a joint that can be pulled together by means of a threaded screw.) - and hold in place with two nails - left and right of the special tool. Afterwards the tool and the wire is removed (apparently from the heel only). The upper stays in this form. (That is all he writes on the whole thing) (The book is called "Der Haferlschuh, Tradition, Handwerk, Mode" from Schuh Bertl)

I also think that this might not work without machines for thin uppers, since the wire might not stay in place - or maybe the nail at the front makes sure that it stays? I don´t know.

Anyway thanks very much for your comment - I thought it was an interesting approach.
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Re: Lasting

#818 Post by dw »

@carsten I got your email, thank you for taking the time.

Truth is, I don't know. I've never seen this technique before. It's not wiping although there may be some superficial similarities. The pincers are what we call "crab pincers." They are intended specifically for drafting the waist. The other tool...no idea.

I apologize for the confusion on my part. The good thing is that the description and photos above may help someone who actually is interested in wiping techniques.
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Re: Lasting

#819 Post by das »

Carsten, Just a comment: that technique you show using wire, historically, was called "bracing the toe". If you go to John Rees' 1813 book in the HCC library links, you can read the full description. It was, back then, done with a tag end of a stout thread, one end secured around a lasting tack, the other end wound around one opposite, which was then twisted like a ship's capstan to draw the "bracing" thread up very tight, and as DW says, "wipe" the toe wrinkles in smooth. Much, much later, a machine was developed for factory use that did the wire "bracing" too.
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Re: Lasting

#820 Post by carsten »

Thanks das! You guys are really living encyclopedias.
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Re: Lasting

#821 Post by das »

Carsten, DW and I discussed the book pages you sent him on making "Hafrel" shoes, with the wire. It all makes sense now. These shoes are made with the stitchdown (Veldtschoen in Dutch) construction, and not lasted (under) like welted shoes, because the upper is flanged outward, and the soles stitched to that instead of a welt. Couldn't read the German text, but the wire, then the screw device, I am pretty sure is for "toe flanging" (forcing the leather to turn outward)--this is what that technique is called in English anyway, in the Clark's Shoe Co. staff training textbook for Veldtschoen making.
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Re: Lasting

#822 Post by carsten »

Yes Veldtschoen it is. I remember that name being used in one of the online books provided in thehcc library. I thought you call it double stitched now. Thats how i read it in the english version of the book of Laszlo Vass from Budapest. Maybe it was just not well translated. There also a welt is used for thinner uppers, which is bent more or less 90 degrees and runs along the edge, lining up with the upper on the one side and sitting on the veltschoen bent upper on the sole part. I just imagine that the inseaming must be more difficult, since I guess the wire needs to stay in place until everything is sewed.
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Re: Lasting

#823 Post by nickb1 »

I have a question about wet lasting. I'm making some chelsea boots, and unfortunately the leather I chose for the uppers turns out to be not supple enough. My fault entirely - it was the first time I'd chosen leather directly from a warehouse and did not really know the parameters of what will last straightforwardly. I'm getting creasing and it's hard to work. I'd read that wet lasting is a possible solution for this problem, and it seems to be common in boot making. The question is how to go about this - do you somehow soak the uppers but keep the linings dry or soak the whole thing?
Grateful for any pointers, don't want this project to end in the bin!
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Re: Lasting

#824 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:19 am And yes, it puts holes in the last but perhaps not as many as if the inch and a quarter long lasting nails currently in favour were being used.
I'd be interested to try wiping as a means of cutting down on nails and holes in the last. It seems from your pictures (and video) that you use either glue or paste so that the upper remains in place once the wiping strip is removed. Is that right?
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Re: Lasting

#825 Post by dw »

nickb1 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:55 am I have a question about wet lasting. I'm making some chelsea boots, and unfortunately the leather I chose for the uppers turns out to be not supple enough. My fault entirely - it was the first time I'd chosen leather directly from a warehouse and did not really know the parameters of what will last straightforwardly. I'm getting creasing and it's hard to work. I'd read that wet lasting is a possible solution for this problem, and it seems to be common in boot making. The question is how to go about this - do you somehow soak the uppers but keep the linings dry or soak the whole thing?
Grateful for any pointers, don't want this project to end in the bin!
Thanks,
Nick
I wet last pull-on boots. I spritz the flesh-side of uppers and the linings on shoes. I also hoist the uppers on almost all footwear I make. Both of those things go a long way toward getting the leather 'tight to the wood.' I

If you soak a shoe or boot until the upper leather is evenly one colour (all wet, no damp or dry) the shoe will almost always dry evenly and with no water stains. Some leathers that have high residual tanning agents will bleed and stain light coloured leathers, however. (Baker does this). Otherwise no harm no foul. That, said soaking shoes that have been patterned (tape, mean form, etc.) directly off the last, runs the risk of distorting the patterns during lasting.

On the other hand improperly patterning (not enough 'spring in the patterns) can result in problems such as you describe. With chelseas and johdpurs and even full cut oxford and some derbys I always block the vamp, esp. if a one piece vamp and tongue is wanted.It's just a serendipitous cross-over technique from bootmaking. That has the same effect as springing the patterns. And although boots are my forte, I've never encountered any of the un-draftable excess in the instep of waist which plagues some makers.

Not to flog a dead horse :deadhorse: but this speaks directly to the issue of outworks we were examining in another thread--a closer might know leather well enough to have avoided the problem you've described , but if you rely on outworkers, how will you ever? This applies across the board.
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