Lasting

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Re: Lasting

#601 Post by artzend »

Nick

You would block/crimp a whole cut elastic side boot but if you have a tongue you normally don't need to.

Just use the boards when, and if you think it will help to make the job easier. If you need to spring a pattern, then in some cases it means that you have to be prepared to block.

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Re: Lasting

#602 Post by dw »

Nick,

I would block just about any vamp that cannot be cut from a folded pattern.

For instance, even though you can make a whole cut shoe without blocking, it just works better when the vamp is blocked.

On the other hand, you can make a derby with an integral tongue and while the standard would indicate that the tongue is designed at an angle to the mid-line/fold of the vamp, it doesn't make much sense to block the vamp just to set the tongue. [Parenthetically, when I make my Jacobite style buckle shoes...not too dissimilar from a derby...I do block the vamp, just for the express purpose of setting the tongue.]

And a jodphur almost must be blocked. Same with a Chelsea...if unsightly seams aren't going to be employed.

Somewhere in-between all this it comes down to personal preference and whether you want to go to the extra work of making a crimping board and designing blocker patterns fit.

I might add that I am trying to design a board and blocker pattern for a one seam Chelsea (the elastic side gore boot). The only seam will be up the back. It can be done and several highly regarded shoemakers (G&G?) make a version of this boot. It really rises above all other versions, IMO. But like full wellingtons, without blocking it can't be done...at least not that I know of.

So, there's my Image...Hope it helps.

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Re: Lasting

#603 Post by lancepryor »

Here are a couple of pictures of some derbies I am making. I am having a bear of a time getting rid of the wrinkles on the vamp. I know I could use some water or leather stretch to perhaps help things along, but any other thoughts or suggestions would be welcome. I don't know if the wrinkles would simply disappear when the shoe is taken off the last and the tongue is freed up, but needless to say I am reluctant to make that assumption only to discover I am wrong.

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have.
11863.jpg
11864.jpg


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Re: Lasting

#604 Post by dw »

Lance,

I'll ask a couple of probably dumb questions...

Did you last "seats up?"

Did you spring the vamps?

It is obvious, of course, that you have surplus over the joint that should have been pulled forward. The only reasons I can come up with that might explain why you were not able to pull that excess over the toe relate to the above questions.

Lasting seats up would have created a better angle and free range to pull more leather over the toe, since pulling the toe is done before any other drafts are taken. "Hoisting" would then apply a further length-wise tension to the vamp.

The other issue is that if the angle of the vamp, as it is mounted on the quarters (or vice versa,) is "steeper" relative to the angle of the of the forpart of the last...perhaps from springing...it will be difficult to pull the vamp taut before drafting the rest of the forepart.

So...there's another two cents from the peanut gallery. Such observations may not be worth any more than pennies seen lying on the ground--and it's often hard to justify the effort required to bend over and pick them up. Image


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Re: Lasting

#605 Post by noonan »

Hi Lance,
Not bad...but
I think that your vamp score line is pitched into the wood too much... it's all to do with the last draft, and how you lay your patterns onto it. You can work hard tugging and pulling to finish this pair, but next one on this last...make a new shell, and split new parts. You really don't even need to kick the score line downwards into the last. Laying it flat over the vamp area is just fine.
You Gotta make a new lining pattern too man, this one looks like it's cut from another base altogether. The lining should have about 4mm trim allowance around topline. All your patterns are to be "split" from the shell. It might seem like so much work ,just for one pair of shoes, and it is. There is no other way to do it except a wrong way.
Have fun with it, cause it is just that.
Best,
Tim
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Re: Lasting

#606 Post by lancepryor »

DW and Tim:


Thanks for your comments; this was just a trial effort to see how the uppers fit on the lasts, so I'll be relasting them after inserting stiffeners, etc, so I hope all is not lost....

This shoe is sort of like a whole cut, in that the vamp and tongue are one piece, the vamp point is set well back (because of the small facing), and the last has a high cone because I have a very high instep. Obviously, the combination of these factors leaves alot of leather to be dealt with over the waist/joint area. It is my impression that the wrinkling is caused by the compression of the leather as the tongue is pushed upward when the pattern is lasted. DW, I thought perhaps your experience in boots would be relevant.

Regarding your specific comments:

DW:

Yes, I did hoist the uppers. When I redo things, perhaps I'll hoist them even more, if I can. And, I only sprung one of the 2 patterns, and that shoe has LESS wrinkling than the one pictured, so I doubt that's the cause. The springing added some material through the waist/instep area, which I think will help in lasting the pattern in that area; with the unsprung pattern, getting the pattern to the wood at the insole in the instep area will be difficult.

Tim:

I assume by scoreline you mean the center line between the two halves, and by extension then you mean that I shouldn't take the pattern below the 'high' point of the toe? If that is a correct interpretation, I didn't kick the score line down into the last.

Regarding the lining pattern -- my philosophy is better too much lining leather than too little.... I'm sure that as I get better, I'll be able to make the trimming margin smaller.

Again, thanks for your comments.

Further thoughts/ideas/advice from any/all would be welcome.

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Re: Lasting

#607 Post by dearbone »

lance,

The problem might be related to how the one piece vamp/tongue is taken/made,tricky ones the one piece front derbys,Not knowing/seeing how you made your vamp fold,but a good advice is to lower the center line on the instep area when you take a fold from your form,the folded piece will look like is it lower from the bottom of the tongue to the top when compared with the from you taken from the last, easier done for me than to explain it,but i hope it helps,As a matter of fact,i recently made a one piece derby,here is a picture of it.
11866.jpg

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Re: Lasting

#608 Post by dearbone »

And BTW Lance, choosing the right leather(Little giving leather) for this type of shoes helps,because there will be some resistant lasting the areas you indicated in your picture no matter how good the vamp/tongue pattern is made.

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Re: Lasting

#609 Post by dw »

Tim,

I've never heard it said quite that way I like it) but I'm pretty sure from the context that you are saying the same thing I was saying about the angle of the vamp. But just to make sure can you define "score line?"

Lance,

I think Tim is right on the money.

When I do whole cuts Shoes) I make a side draft of the standard and use it religiously to cut the vamps from the crimped blocker. So far that technique has worked for chukkas and jodphurs, and Jacobite "monks" Image (all crimped,) as well. But I also keep in mind something that Al told me once about making full cut boots--better to over crimp than undercrimp. Doing so raises the toe of the blocker relative to the toe of the last--or if I'm reading Tim right, raises the score line above the wood.

I'll be honest...I've never seen this problem when making shoes and not for a long, long time when making boots but I just can't envision that many...or any other..mechanisms by which this could happen.

PS...I'm with you on linings. I was always taught that it was better to trim surplus than scratch for enough.

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Re: Lasting

#610 Post by dearbone »

I wonder how many of you have made the one piece Derby,Love to see your pictures if you ever made one, A humble looking shoe,but not easy to make well? Every shoe design is unique and it has it own secrets/tricks and they all have to be made first before one can comment on them,Make sense?

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Re: Lasting

#611 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

Well, I didn't crimp the vamp; had I done so, then I would assume this problem wouldn't have arisen. I guess one of these days I'll have to learn how to crimp a shoe/boot. I was hoping to get away without that on this pair; it is my impression that derbies generally shouldn't have to be crimped, so I'm trying to figure out how to get this pair to work out.

Nasser:

I'll post a scan later to see if I understand what you mean

Lance
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Re: Lasting

#612 Post by last_maker »

I don't know if this applies but,I just read a section on golding V 1 Pg. 18 on darbies and states
" before cutting standardes for this dsign, it is necessary to be sure the last used is suitable for making derbies. The HOLLOW BELOW THE INSTEP OF THE LAST MUST BE EASY AND FULL enough to over come the tendency for the VAMP EDGE TO BIND ON THE LAST AND FOOT.

The correct TOE-SPRING of the standard "tie" at the vamp edge, while too little will cause a fullness at this juncture and therefore offer a temptation to the laster to pull it across excessively."

I don't know if this will help or not, but funny I just came accrossed it just now while checking my email.

-Marlietta
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Re: Lasting

#613 Post by dw »

Lance,

Well, I'm sure it's the influence of making boots but I'll crimp anytime, and every time, that I can. It not only make lasting more predictable but, IMO, it ease the strain on the leather at the base of the tongue--where it meets the vamp. Especially if you skive this area, along the edge, it can rip if the tongue has to move any distance.

I might add...not really on topic but...I would rather line an oxford with a whole cut lining, regardless of the form, than try to piece a lining together. It's smoother inside and easier all the way around.

One final observation...crimping is dead easy. don't worry about it.

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Re: Lasting

#614 Post by janne_melkersson »

Lance,
here's my contribution to your question.

Things like this could happend even though the pattern is right some leather simply don't follow the last as you like.

What I do on Darbies is that I, as you did, don't cut the lining on the tongue. The reason for this is that by pulling the lining back you will stretch the vamp and some of the wrinkles will be straighten out. But the most important move is to pull the upper very hard forward the toe, the three first nail are crucial. This is also one reason why you have to make the upper shorter regarding the vamp point.

In England I know of makers who before they start to last nail the tongue lining on the last and then they pull foreward. I do it the other way but either way works. This phenomenon mostly happends on Derby styles.

Hope this helps
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Re: Lasting

#615 Post by lancepryor »

Everybody:

Thanks for your additional comments.

Marlietta: sounds right on, except my ability to understand/interpret Golding's language is woeful at best.

DW: Guess I've got to learn to crimp. Out of curiosity, do you crimp your wholecut linings?

Janne: That's part of the reason I left the lining untrimmed. I figured I might want to use it for tacking to the last. I'll try to really pull hard on the toe when lasting --thanks.

Okay, here is a scanned 'essay' of how I derived the vamp pattern. In particular, I would welcome comments from Tim and Nasser, as I'm not sure I understood your earlier suggestions.

Okay, scan 1 is the forme, with the pattern drawn on, and the Vamp Point (VP) marked. Also, you can see 3 lines from VP -- one is perpendicular to the toe/vamp crease line, the second is perpendicular to the facing/cone line, and the third is the average of these two (this technique from Patrick's Pattern Making book).

You can see that this middle line is in fact in front of the front of the quarter pattern, so in subsequent pages I'll move it further up to 'VP2.'

Also, you can see the 'crease line' drawn from the VP over the top of the toe (as I believe is standard for most pattern making?).
11870.jpg


The next image simply has the vamp point moved back to VP2, which lines up with the front of the quarter pattern. The effect this has is to raise the crease line a bit, giving a bit more leather to be lasted away in the hollow of the last.
11871.jpg


Next, because this is a single piece vamp, the tongue must be sprung down. This springing is shown on this page. Note that when you spring the tongue down, you must also make it a bit longer to account for the compression that occurs when the tongue is unsprung. You can see how much the tongue is going to have to move up when the shoe is lasted. As noted in earlier posts, I have a high instep, which yields a high cone on the last.

Also on this page is another possible vamp point, behind VP2, which corresponds to the actual point where the tongue can start to fold upward when lasted. Again, if this vamp point were used, the amount of excess leather over the hollow would increase.
11872.jpg


Okay, so this is the vamp pattern I used -- it is the same pattern as outline in image 3, just with fewer lines for clarity.
11873.jpg


Finally, and for Nasser and Tim to comment on, I've drawn a few more lines that could serve as the 'crease line' for the pattern -- marked A, B, and C.

Line A has the top of the crease line moved up, but still touches the toe at the top of the forme -- marked point 'T'.'

Line B starts at the top of the current crease line but runs across the bottom of the curve in the hollow of the last, but consequently also goes well below the top of the toe/ point T.

Line C starts below the current crease line at the toe, but hits point T. This has the effect of reducing the excess leather in the hollow, but at the expense of more leather at the front of the toe and additional springing of the tongue, with attendant compression when the tongue is lasted.
11874.jpg


I hope that all makes sense.

I would welcome anyone's feedback and/or thoughts.

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Re: Lasting

#616 Post by dearbone »

Lance.

Okay that's much better,It is line CT or there about(below cease line) which will produce a good vamp,It is by lowing this line below the actual cease line that you can minimize that extra leather in the middle,The tongue can easily go back up to the cease line without distortion.

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Re: Lasting

#617 Post by dearbone »

Another thing that might distorts is during plugging the quarters and the vamp,to make sure that is take place correctly i mark on the vamp tongue area the direction(angle) of the quarters as are shown in the picture between the arrows.
11882.jpg
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Re: Lasting

#618 Post by dw »

Lance,

I agree with Nasser although I've never done it that way. CT has the same effect as "over crimping" (if you were going to crimp). You can always pull the toe down but once you get that surplus over the joint it is hard to get rid of.

As for crimping...as I said above (perhaps clumsily)...anytime I make an oxford (and a whole cut is an oxford of sorts) I make a full cut crimped lining. Do it once or twice and you'll be tempted to do it all the time. It eliminates a whole lot of messing around piecing the lining together and creates a smooth interior with no seams. Crimping for a shoe is so dad-gummed easy...try crimping for a whole cut boot!

I suspect...amateur that I am...that to some extent the problem that you're facing with the two-eye derby is a function of forcing the tongue to deviate from the "natural" crease line and rise up over the cone. That "movement" is bound to create "draw" and surplus somewhere. I guarantee it. I don't even have to be a shoemaker to make that statement. At the same time some leathers will "force" easier than others...just as some leathers will crimp easier than others.

If you crimp the vamp you have the ability to chase that excess out--and even, to some extent, off the board. You can't do that during lasting...not easily.

When crimped, the resulting blocker has no tension and because it is so nearly a duplicate of the forme, will nearly fall on the last.

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(Message edited by dw on November 09, 2010)
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Re: Lasting

#619 Post by noonan »

Hey Lance,
I wish I could show you in person, it's so simple. Your scanned image shows me nothing,as a pattern man. You need to have an excellent fitting last draft. A properly layed out "shell" onto this draft, would show me right away what is the problem. remember I showed you how this "shell" is a blueprint of every single component or "part" of this model.Your counters, foams, reinforcers...every piece, is represented in this most important part of the engineering of an upper. Espesially when one day someone askes you to grade the thing out, and prepare to duplicate the thing 50,000 times all sizes and widths.
Send a profile view of the last...Marlietta is right, that there might be a bridge or gap just in front of instep, around vamp point. 2 or 3mm
filler won't hurt anything.

DW, yes...scoreline is the center line, or fold line. key when laying out the patterns. Once you get a good fitter on a particular last, we use that proven base over and over. Last year we put in something like 150 new last. I drafted 45 of theem myself. A real scientific approach.Before we ever start laying out a shell, the draft is approved peftect. Now we scan them, and it's scary accurate. We actually have to scale the scanned last up 1.017% ( a couple of hairs)because the scan is so accurate, the drape we put over the last to test our drafts woukld be too tight, like to actuall surface of the last.

I'll never understand how you guys make some really great looking footwear without going through all these steps. It boils down to the craftsman in you. I'm starting to miss the shop when I check in on you guys!!
Best,
Tim
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Re: Lasting

#620 Post by lancepryor »

Tim:

Here is an outside shot of the last in profile:
11884.jpg


and from the inside
11885.jpg


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Re: Lasting

#621 Post by noonan »

Hi Lance,

The last looks a little dug out in the area I mentioned, but not bad. I wouldn't worry at all if I were to fill this in a little...just blend in about 2.5mm
over the gap. It wont affect your fit enough to notice. Next, did you take your medial and a lateral draft, cut out a dummy out of some firm non woven, zig zag up the front and back, and if your draft is accurate, this will "drape" right over your last. The cone center line will be exactly down the center, and your back seam will be centered. This dummy should just lay onto the last, and the feather edges are oh so perfect all the way around. You don't want to be tugging the drape anywhere to get it to lay where it should. You can use the old slashed paper method, or the tape method...Unfortunately, this is something can't really be learned proper in a book. And you only start getting the hang of it and understanding what is happening when you flatten the draft out, say, after about a hundred drafts. This is the first thing we learned, after learning how to hold a knife. Cannot stress the importance of an excellent draft.
Maybe you show me your new set up, I'll be happy to show you this. The zig zag machine comes in handy here.
Ciao,
Tim
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Re: Lasting

#622 Post by lancepryor »

Tim:

You are welcome to visit anytime, but there is not much to see, since I am doing virtually everything by hand. Just a couple of sewing machines, and my hand tools.

I am a little lost by what you are saying. I mean, in general I understand the importance and value of a well-made draft, but in the case of a 'whole-cut' derby vamp/tongue, there remains a key decision to make about where to make the 'crease line' relative to that draft. Because the vamp and tongue are cut from a single piece of leather, the tongue has to be sprung down, and the crease lie/center line of the vamp must be placed somewhere relative to the draft.

The initial picture/scan (#1 above) above IS a copy of the draft, which was taken by the tape method. So, the question remains, if you were to make a single-piece derby vamp/tongue, where would you choose:
a. the 'vamp point', given the desired quarter/facings shown in the pictures?
b. the amount of springing down of the tongue (noting that the tongue must be a straight-line continuation of the vamp crease line)?
and,
c. given the answer to b, where would the crease line go from there (e.g. over the top of the toe (point T), below the toe, or what?

That was the set of questions I was trying to get to with my scans.

Nasser's view is that the tongue should be sprung way down, below an extension of the Toe-Vamp Point line, which reduces the amount of excess leather across the joint/in the hollow, but at the expense of more upward movement of the tongue when lasting. If we assume the draft as pictured is perfect, then how would you do your vamp pattern?

Golding says this in discussing a derby pattern:

"The “Lorne” shoe,which preceded this design,
had the tongue and vamp cut in one piece, necessitating the front being blocked.
"

Perhaps I really should have just crimped the vamp.

Lance
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Re: Lasting

#623 Post by artzend »

Lance

You shouldn't need to block/crimp the vamp for this. I made lots of them like this without blocking any.

The tongue should pop up on it's own but sometimes you do need to pull it up the cone a bit to remove wrinkles on the vamp.

I suspect that your CT line is best. The fitting line should be a standard 10mm from the raw edge of the vamp, and yours looks not to be consistent over the whole length.

The last looks fine, the higher cone is not going to affect how the tongue behaves in this case.

One thing I notice is that the facings are a lot wider on the last, to those on your patterns.

Try to keep the real thing as close to your patterns as possible. You may need to put some more nails in the front to see what is going to happen.

You could try pulling the vamp over the toe a little bit more, and re last with the bottom of the back raised 10mm above the feather edge until you get the front situated right. Then pull the back down so the topline sits on the back height mark.

What is the lining doing? is it very tight? Sometimes that can affect how the upper sits too.

Tim
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Re: Lasting

#624 Post by lancepryor »

Tim Skyrne:

Thanks for your comments. The pattern I show in the scans is not the actual pattern I used -- it is a hand-drawn version on a shrunken draft, designed to show what/how I did things, but it is not identical to the actual pattern, which is in my workshop not at my home. However, your comments in general are well-taken -- I need to make sure the upper's facings when lasting are the same distance apart as on the pattern.

RE: the fitting line, I varied it to have plenty of sewing margin along the curve, but narrowed/reduced it to go beneath the stay stitching at the bottom of the facings. I know this may not be typical, but I did it on both the vamp and quarter patterns, and did cut them and fit them accordingly, so that shouldn't affect the fit of the pattern.

Based on your and Nasser's comments, I'm guessing I just didn't spring the tongue down enough and thus had too much excess leather over the joints/hollow of the last. I was afraid of too much compression of the leather when the tongue moves up, but I guess that was perhaps an unnecessary fear.

Lance
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Re: Lasting

#625 Post by artzend »

Lance

The tongue is almost free standing, so as long as it is the same width as the original it will sit up by itself.

Tim Skyrme
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