Lasting

[jenny_fleishman]

Photo of the back seam:

4971.jpg

Jenny

[shoestring]

Jenny
If you just have to hammer them to flaten so the rubbing will not cause pain do it with a 4/5oz veg.leather to pound on that may help if rubbing don't work.And when ever I work with a hide other than for tooling I cut a piece to test for bleeding.Just my $.05 worth.Not that I am the expert here.

Ed

[jenny_fleishman]

Pictures of my latest lasting screw-ups!

I seem to have a problem with not being able to get the upper flat against the last where the outside quarter meets the vamp. This happened with my first pair as well. I'm thinking it's probably a flaw in the contour of my homemade last, but don't know if I'm right. Any other possibilities I should consider?

4991.jpg

Next problem. On this pair I made hung linings, and folded the kidskin back to cement on the pre-molded leather toe stiffener and heel counter.

4992.jpg

But doing so put some fine wrinkles in the kidskin that still show after lasting the shoe. Is this avoidable?

4993.jpg

Thanks for any advice!

Jenny

[paul]

Jenny,

I think I'd have to look at your patterns, (and I'm sure you've done a good job with that, because I know you've been working at this), but to me it looks as if the vamp at the quarter curve, may spread more that the quarters want them to be.
Hard for me to explain, but it's as if the back of the vamp has to swing inward to line up with the quarters. Could that be it?

As to your wrinkles, just say the words "hot air" over the wrinkles. A hair dryer may even be enough. They may disappear, but be careful. you don't want to bake it. To be truthful though, wrinkles may show up at about that spot soon enough anyway.

Keep it up, you're doing great!

PK

[dw]

Jenny,

Professing ignorance, I would nevertheless venture to guess...repeat guess...that if you lasted these wet, all that might be able to be pulled out. Also, much of the wrinkles at the side might be able to be chased out with a bone smoother and some R.M. Williams...again, the vamp needs to be wet for that to take, however.

That said, this is way beyond my pay grade.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[headelf]

DW--do you have a source for R.M. Williams. Can't find it here in a non-saddle/tack environment at the usual shoe finders. Regards, Georgene

[jake]

Georgene,

King's Saddlery....1-800-443-8919


Jake

[dw]

Georgene,

Yep, that's where I get mine too.

Thanks Jake.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, all. What is R.M. Williams?

I did treat the grain side of the kidskin uppers with Lexol neatsfoot oil before lasting, and spritzed the flesh side of the vamp with distilled water before lasting that area. I am quite pleased with the Lexol. It did take the shine of the finish down a notch, but nothing I can't live with.

I found that the Lexol made the kidskin MUCH more stretchy, particularly before the Lexol dried, which really helped in lasting the squared tox box area. I did not get any more water stains, either. Not sure whether that was due to the Lexol and/or the distilled water, but I'm happy!

Paul, I'm not sure about the pattern. On the inside of the upper I actually was thinking about swinging the vamp wing OUT a little, because at first I had too much length around the featherline, causing puckers in the vamp just before the quarter. However, once I put the toe stiffener and heel counter on, I was able to last it acceptably.

Is folding back the upper leather to apply the heel counter and toe stiffener a commonly used lasting technique, or is not common because it causes wrinkles in the leather?

Jenny

[paul]

Jenny,

I haven't made many derby style shoes, so I haven't had much more experience than you on this part. But it almost looks like if you had swung it out further you would have pulled those wrinkles off the edge at the base of the quarter curve. I'm just guessin'. I'm glad you say it lasted acceptably.

I can't speak to common ways of handling of counters and toe stiffeners either, but it's the only way I've ever done toe boxes. I don't usually worry about any wrinkles in the vamp that I can't pull over the end of the toe. They're in the right place for flex eventually anyway. But I pull out what I can.
I prefer to look for ways to stitch in a counter. Over the years I've seen many shoes with holes in the counter lining.

I'm in the process of doing a pair of 8" zipper boots with a "hung" lining. This is the fourth pair of zip boots I've done, and I like this pattern and sequence of assembly the best. I'll be posting pics when done. They're very hip!

I'm not so sure about the Neatsfoot Oil Lexol. I like and use Care 4 in my casing solution instead of Lexol for lasting, and neatsfoot oil can leave a residue. I'm not surprised it dulled the finish some. But it's good it didn't leave any stains.

R.M. Williams is a leather dressing with a smooth paste consistency, that penetrates and absorbs into the leather, leaving no residue. It's use in lasting is surface lubrication. Like most dressings it might slightly darken veg tanned and retan leathers. And it's from "down under"!

Pk

[jenny_fleishman]

Paul, so do you mix Care 4 with water for casing, and can you spritz it on the leather? Or do you soak the whole upper? If spritzing, do you spritz the grain and/or flesh side? What proportion do you mix it in with water? Would any shoe finder sell it? And, question number 2,010....

Back to the pattern...if I swing the vamp wing out, it should shorten the featherline, eliminating puckering there, I believe, but wouldn't it likely cause more puckering at the forward end of the quarter curve? (When I take the shoe off the last, it may not be an issue, I suppose.)

Thanks!

Jenny

[paul]

Jenny,

You are an asker, that's fer sure. But that's a good thing. It shows you've got your thinking cap on.

Yes mix it with water. I use tap, (before you ask, but whatever you're comfortable with) I don't know what ratio. I'm a mixologist. Maybe a splash to a cup.

You probably could spritz it, yes. It would be more economical that way. Larger pieces might want to be immersed.
Finders should have it. Some use Joy Dish Soap. PH balanced and 'it makes water wetter'. That's what you're after. It'll soak up better.

As to your pattern, as a study, you might try one of the different ways of arriving at the pattern and compare what you get with what you've got. I think you've been exposed to a couple of different methods, haven't you? Tape vs. geometric. I'm no expert on any process but the comparision would be educational.

Don't be bashful about asking more questions. We'll make a shoe maker out of you yet.

PK

[relferink]

Jenny,

Better late than never, right? Some of this may be already answered or you probably moved on beyond this but I figure I up it out here for next time or someone else with a similar problem.
About the fist set of pictures from May 1st, the damage does not seem to bad and can probably be well hidden with some shoe polish.
I have a hard time deciding what is water stain and what is the reflection of the flash. My first instinct was just as DW suggested to dunk the whole upper in water. However with the consideration of a black lining that may bleed my second thought is to put the upper on the last with just a nail or two and try to use a combination of a wetish moist rag wet the leather hoping to blend in the stain edges and once dry use colored shoe polish or Lexol or a combination to blend it even more and restore the leather.

As mentioned before it's better to rub out the seam than to hammer it and you should always do that from the flesh side, never the grain side. You can lay the grain down on a clean, smooth bench so it does not damage the grain and rub the seam flat. I use the back of this pattern hammer (not sure if that's the correct term) to do that

5002.jpg

The wrinkles are something different all together, could be your last shape, your patterns, a misalignment between the lining and the upper, the way it was sewn down could have caused the tension. But most likely it's a combination of all of the above.
Since the lining is down I would first try to work on it leaving the lining in place.
My first try would be to take the laces out, or at least loosen them so they don't pull the lace bars together, undo all the tacks holding the upper. Start from the front with a firm pull, if the upper is not completely hugs the last in the area just in front of the laces that's OK, than you probably need to add 2 more tacks around the toe area to keep the leather from ripping. Next pull behind the ball area, not over the ball area of the last. (seem marking)

5003.jpg

Get it so the vamp will hug the last. You have to be somewhat careful with the lining down already that you don't get to much slack in the lining behind the ball but from the look of it the leather should be soft enough to conform nicely. (note to self, looks can be deceiving )You can at that stage use the laces to pull and adjust the tension in that area to take out the last wrinkles. If you use lasting tacks you also have to be very careful with the leather ripping around the tacks, with leather like this I would prefer to use staples, they have a wider area they hold down and as long as they are driven in with not to much pressure they have a lesser chance or ripping out.

If nothing else works and you feel you don't have to much to loose dunk the whole thing in water and wet last. (what kind of cement did you use for your toe box and counters, you don't want to dunk the shoe if it is water solvable) If you think the lining will bleed through you can always put a layer of cement, rubber cement or all purpose to "insulate" the lining. Not an official way of doing things but it will serve the purpose. Make sure the glue is mostly dry before wet lasting or you will end up with a wet, sticky mess.
To get the wrinkles out with heat may work but you have to be oh so careful not to burn the leather, especially kid skin like this. If your adventurers enough to try it wet it and start with a little localized heat to see how the leather reacts. Once you burn the leather there is nothing you can do but start from scratch so be careful.

The wrinkles you show in the last 3rd picture of the set from May 14th, I would guess that you glued down the quarters on the vamp, as you put it down you probably did what I've seen a lot of people do, start on one end and put down 1/8" at a time, constantly adjusting and steering as you put down the quarter. Those little "steering adjustments" in combination with folding back the leather to get to the counter and toebox may be the cause of those little wrinkles. Fist try to un-stick the layers, chances are that once un-stuck (maybe with a little bit of talcum powder in between them) they will lay much smoother. The underlay of the vamp showing through, nothing you can do now, that's all in the skiving, once stitched don't even try to work on that, just learn to live with it.

I have no experience with RM Williams so I can't help you there. Yes, it is common practice to fold back the upper to apply the counter and toebox. Very, very few people are able to last without doing this using leather toe boxes and counters and still end up with a good result. I'm still waiting for my membership card to that elite group. Last time I asked for my card they had a good laugh and told me it was in the mail...

BTW, nice job on the folded edges and the sewing. I bet this shoe would look great with the dark lining. What type of sole are you going to use on it?

Paul, the holes you refer to in the counter lining, they are most commonly caused by rotation of the foot against the heel counter. This happens mostly with fabric lining and poor fitting shoes that give the heel to much room to move around. Sometimes you do see feet with very bony prominences at the back of the heel, they will really chew through whatever is in the way. If you have a customer with that problem but don't want the look of a counter pocket sewn on you can double up the lining and turn the lining flesh side out in the back of the heel for additional "grip"

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

The Guild used to issue membership cards....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Don't have time to post pictures at the moment, but the shoe uppers are already lasted, shank on and also filler. Ready for soling. My soling plans are probably unconventional.

I plan to use a stacked leather heel with a thick synthetic toplift (for shock absorption). I am not sure how to apply a preformed heel because the contour of the heel area can vary depending on many factors (such as poor construction ), so what are the chances the surface of the preformed heel will match it? Obviously, this is done all the time, but I don't know how to compensate for differences in the contour of the surface of the heel area of the shoe, and the surface of the preformed heel. The first layer of the leather heel I did on my first pair, nicely conformed to the shoe's heel surface, and then I skived and scraped it, to get it flat for the next layer.

For the rest of the sole, I am thinking of putting on a thin layer of Cloud (again for shock absorption), ending at the stacked heel. I'm wondering if I should heat the Cloud to get it to conform to the curves of the last. Next, a layer of some sort of sheet soling material. The trick is finding something thin and flexible enough it won't pull the toe spring out of the shoe.

I do think it will look kind of strange to have the soling materials end at the stacked heel, but I'm not sure how else to do it. I'm am absolutely open to all suggestions. I basically want shock absorption and durability in the soling materials. Because of the small size of the shoes, finding preformed soles is almost impossible. And matching the heel height just right with a preformed sole seems like a longshot.

I am probably going to the shoe finder Sunday, but not hopeful about finding any magic solutions as I've looked at their soling materials many times already. All suggestions before then would be appreciated!

Jenny

[tomo]

Hi Jenny,
RM Williams was my hero, he was an Australian saddler, bootmaker, bushman, racontuer, goldminer, millionaire, horseman, humanist, good bloke... www.rmwilliams.com.au
More power to y'awl
T.

[relferink]

Jenny,

If you're concerned about shock absorption why not go with a full EVA type heel. The idea of Cloud as a padded layer is not all that bad, personal I would approach it slightly different. I believe strongly if padding and shock absorption are needed to apply it locally as close to the foot as possible. Putting a shock absorbing layer under the shoe will make the shoe less stable. If you have the room adding some Poron or something similar inside the shoes will have more effect.
For soling you have some options. Denser materials wear better, softer absorb more shock but wear quicker. Look at a material like Soleflex, it comes with tread in sheet form. It's EVA, just like cloud but firmer so it wears better. You can laminate some pieces to build a stack heel as you would with leather or create a wedge heel, whatever you like. Heat it up before you glue it down and it will nicely conform to the last shape. If you still want the softer Cloud as a padded layer look at a sheet material called Lunar Crepe or Gum Crinkle for your walking sole, it is very strong and wears well, you can get a 7 or 9 Iron thickness to keep the weight down. Remember that the shoe will get a lot stiffer if you use the cloud as an in between layer due to the lamination effect. IOW the flexibility once laminated will be less than the individual materials (insole, Cloud, outsole) added up.
For the heel you can pick up some rubber toplifts, the kind used in shoe repair. They wear well and can easily be replaced once you wear them down.

Hope this one is on time to be useful for this pair of shoes, not just for future pairs.

Rob

[paul]

Rob,

I like your answer way better than the one I was working on. I especially like that you confirm my observation that softer materials should be closest to the foot and firm up out from there. Do you have a ratio of some sort?

Jenny,

I've seen factory soles done that way, with the sole ending at the heel base. There's more to it than meets the eye. To do a sole this way, the insole would have to be especially reinforced. The higher the heel, the more necessary it becomes. I wouldn't want to do it that way. A broken shank waiting to happen.

I don't remember how high your heel is going to be. But I like Rob's idea of a wedge sole sole. Or a spring heel would work too. Do as Rob suggestes, stacking layers of EVA to the hieght you wish, come about 2 3/4" to 3" in from the back, and taper the breast at about a 30 degree slant, then glue your soling strip. Another product your finder may have, is Vibram soling sheet Style #674 Mini-Rib. It comes in 7 iron and would probably work well for what you're looking for.

A word of caution about heating Cloud, too much heat will make the air escape from the cells and it'll shrink. But it's so flexible, it wouldn't need to be heated to shape.

Good luck, sounds like you're getting close.

PK

[dw]

I agree that using the Cloud as a part of a sole or heel will only increase the instability. That may not be too significant with a low heel but I definately agree that cushioning is better closer to the foot itself.

One thing you might consider....if this is to be a dance shoe...nearly all forms of rubber will make pivot turns and other dance figures harder to do and much more stressful on the legs and ankles. Any type of leather sole is better than any kind of rubber but the true "dance" sole is about a 4-6 iron chrome tan soling. I have a short stack for my own use but I don't know where you'd get them...only that they are available.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

Paul,

I don't have a ratio, it all depends on the sensitivity, activity level, customers weight etc. I also don't usually add a full layer of padding but use it localized on sensitive areas such as under the Metatarsal heads. Often you can do more good with a structural correction than just padding the foot and to much padding can take away from the correction.
It's one of those things that comes with experience but when in doubt more padding is better since padding tends to be bulky you can always take it away and put some firmer material in it's place, if you don't have the extra room you will have a hard time adding any padding. Lasting the shoe with an extra liner that later can be replaced works well, if you don't need it you just leave the spacer in place.

Jenny, I hope you used a steel shank, if you used a decent shank you should have no problems of the shoe collapsing when you go for a separate heel. Heating the cloud to much will make it burn and shrink, I usually have my oven on 250-300 F and leave it in for short periods of time. I don't have a stopwatch when I do it but check the material regularly and when it's playable enough I pull it out. On the 250-300 setting the material will burn when I leave it in for more than 5 to 10 minutes. You may be better of with a little lower setting on your oven. Be careful with toaster ovens that do not have a lot of clearance, a convection oven is really the referred way to go.

Your local finder supplying shoe repair shops should have the chrome tan dance soles DW mentions. I've never seen them pre-cut, you probably have to buy it by the foot. You can put those on over the EVA base if you use the shoes for dancing. It won't wear well for street wear.

Enjoy the shopping trip on Sunday

Rob

[artzend]

Jenny,

I have come to this discussion late and wish to say that you should not need to wet the leather to last kid leather, I never wet any of my uppers unless they would not pull right, and then only use water, not neatsfoot oil. That may be all the problem with the lasting was. You sometimes get the result you have displayed when lasting over bunions and to solve it you need to make more pleats. This means spending a lot of time to eliminate the creases on top.

Wrinkling in kid is very common and it is a difficult leather to last cleanly sometimes because of that.

A hair dryer is fine for blowing the wrinkles, and if the leather needs it, a bit of petroleum jelly rubbed on the surface keeps the leather moist and avoids burning it.

You can blow wrinkles later if you want once it is removed from the last. We did that as a last checking procedure when I worked in a shoe factory years ago.

Why are you planning to use a leather heel if the rest of the sole is cloud (I am assuming that cloud is EVA). You should be able to make the entire heel of EVA if it is not too high. Too high and body weight, if coming down off-centre will distort the heel very easily. If you are light that should not be a problem. I see you are talking about 2-3 inch heels which are probaly too high for a stacked EVA heel but the wedge idea is probably ok here.

For dance shoes, as DW said, use green chrome split, sometimes used for making tool bags etc. Don't wear the shoes outside once you have them finished, only use them indoors and the soling will last for years.

If these are to be worn outside then putting "Topy" under the forepart will give you long wear and non-slip properties, while under the heel you need a rubber top piece. Apart from that nothing needs to change. Topy will not change your toe spring, in fact nothing should change that once the shoe is lasted and the sole applied.

Don't hammer the backseam, sorry Ed, you run the risk of breaking threads if you do that. Just turn the upper inside out, drape it over the balance wheel of the sewing machine, making sure there is no oil about, and then rub it with the square edge of the folding hammer shown in the photo from Robert.

You seem to have a problem with toe spring, if you put the tip of a finger under the front of the last, this will give you the right toe spring, (10mm) this then leaves you with the correct heel height for that last. Well in most cases it does. Very high heeled shoes require no, or almost no toe spring.

Your heel, when built should leave the toe spring as it was. You can change the toe spring by putting a lower than normal heel but this changes the pitch of the last too and may result in a less than comfortable shoe.

I hope that this information is still relevant and that I didn't conflict with other posters, if so please accept my apologies as I am new to posting and problem solving this way. There are a lot of good answers there and my knowledge of US terms and materials is not good. We may differ in terms, but the result is all that matters at the end of the day.

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Tim. Vocabulary question again. what is "Topy"?

The current shoes will have a 5/8" heel, and are walking shoes. I probably will never go higher than 1" because my feet won't tolerate it. My dancing shoes will look nothing like those on "Dancing With The Stars"!

re finishing the sides of an EVA heel, sole or wedge. Is some sort of finish necessary to protect it from water (rain)? Can you use regular edge dye to improve the appearance? Thanks.

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

Topy is a proprietary brand of nylon soling. It is thin and non-slip and can be stuck on to any sort of soling that would otherwise wear quickly or become slippery. I am sure it is available in the US but it may have some other name. Repairers use it a lot. Someone else may have a better idea of what it's called there, I am in Australia.

5/8" heel is ok with eva and shouldn't cause any problems with walking over unless you normally wear out heels that way. Put a top piece of something hard wearing on top and you should be ok.

No you won't need to finish the sides of eva, it is a chemical product and entirely waterproof. You can grind the sides to blend with your sole but apart from covering the heel with leather upper material and creating a covered knock on heel you can't do much more than smooth it with a finishing machine. You could try using shoe polish on a scrap edge to see if it gives a more polished edge if that is what you want.

I forgot to mention too that you should be careful of using black pigskin for lining, the colour always seems to come off on the foot. Once you are more comfortable with your shoes you should look to changing to goat (kid) lining or calf (kip) lining. These are (or should be) mostly veg tanned and much better. I always used goat because it feels good and doesn't stretch as much as calf or pigskin. Use natural as a lining colour in most cases and as was described by some other poster you can make reverse counter linings for the heel to stop slippage. You will find that goat lasts a lot longer than pig when used as a counter lining.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

We get Topy here in the States...in two, maybe three colours even!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

Thanks DW,

Sounds like you just ask for it Jenny.

Are you making walking shoes or dancing shoes though? You won't need Topy for dancing, it is completely non-slip.

We only get Topy in brown or black, what is the other colour DW?

Tim