Bristling at the very suggestion

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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#426 Post by johnl »

Just for giggles and grins, I searched ebay for Boar bristles etc. Came up with a lot of brushes, but also one place that had them in lots of 50 9-13 cm long and not expensive. Have also found them on line in fishing stores that sell fly tying stuff, but they were about 3 " long.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#427 Post by dw »

John,

Well, 9cm is only a half inch or so longer than 3"...so not real long.

It's worth repeating an old story at this point, I guess...Some years ago I was buying boar's bristles from old, established shoe finders. They were probably packaged up specifically for repair or making back in the 1930's or thereabouts. They were about 13cm (5-6") long and came bundled up with a little yellow silk cord in a semi-transparent paper envelope.

One day in the middle of inseaming, one of the bristles broke and my hand/grip slid past the fragments. I didn't think much of it and proceeded to re-prepare the taw and another bristle.

But my finger or thumb (can't remember) sort of stung and when I looked it seemed to be swelling up fast. Examining it more closely I saw a dark spot on the skin and when I touched it I realized it was the nub of a piece of that bristle. Almost like a straw driven into a tree trunk by a tornado.

I grabbed a tweezers and although I could barely grasp the end because it was nearly flush with the skin, I pulled at least half an inch of bristle out of my hand. If I had not seen, felt, and pulled that bristle I'm sure I would have ended up in the hospital.

Whether it was just never completely cleaned or disinfected or whether it was a by-product of long years of slow decay, I don't know, but it was toxic--like a mesquite thorn.

That's another advantage of nylon monofilament--it's inert.

Just sayin'...
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#428 Post by fclasse »

Thanks for the shout-outs on the bristles, all - certainly, I plan to maintain a good stock of bristles for all of those who would like to try them out.

Aside from the technical aspects of bristles vs. nylon etc., there may be also something else to consider, and that is one's interest in using historic materials. Certainly, modern materials can be more robust, more available, and easier to use than historical ones, but I must admit a certain pleasure in using pitch wax, real boar bristles, and linen threads. That's primarily because I make historical shoes, though.


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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#429 Post by danfreeman »

Thank you all, Lance and DW, especially, for all your posts on inseam sewing.

You are never too old to learn, and I will here volunteer the information that I sewed hundreds of inseams between 1976 and 2012 with steel bristles. My reason is the common one: I was taught that way. And done correctly, it can produce results virtually as strong, neat, and durable, as boar or nylon bristles. But it is not really the best way, I knew. Even with a properly tapered thread.

The change was required because of two things: dwindling supply of steel bristles, and a new apprentice. Matthew had seen the light--correctly bristled ends--and didn't want to fool with the steel, especially after a few attempts. So we set out to learn it together. Much wax and thread lay on the floor. Many bristles flew off the threads. Neither of us is yet a master at it. But through all the experiments, and the first four pairs we inseamed this way, we had the constant guidance of the Crispin Colloquy, which is now easier to use for specific information with its revision (thank you, DW).

Of course, we had what information is readily available. from Karg to Leno, but contemporary discussions, and photos, helped. There is no single, standard "how-to," naturally--everyone does it differently--just the methods others use; but we tried and tried, until we synthesized our own method, though Matthew's is a little varied from mine.

We agree that the ideal fishing line is 25 to 40 pound--like many others we were convinced that the fine stuff couldn't work, bought 100-lb, found it unsuitable. We are using dacron tapers, despite Al Saguto's assertion that they won't hold wax well enough. They stay on well enough, but I want to try the Teklon, Wild Bill sent a sample, but I have yet successfully to taper the ends well enough. It seems an excessive amount of trouble to unravel and separate 7 or 8 inches of it.We roughen the nylon, but do not split it, wax it and the thread well with pitch/rosin/beeswax. I have made linen and hemp threads, but admit that I am lazy enough to buy them, if they are as good. I use a tight wrap up the bristle a few turns, then back down, trying to space the wraps to be tight, close, and ending up at the right thickness at the right place for stabbing it through.

It became obvious very quickly that nylon or boar bristles are easier to use than steel bristles. What else am I doing the slow way?
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#430 Post by dw »

danfreeman wrote:Thank you all, Lance and DW, especially, for all your posts on inseam sewing.

We are using dacron tapers, despite Al Saguto's assertion that they won't hold wax well enough. They stay on well enough, but I want to try the Teklon, Wild Bill sent a sample, but I have yet successfully to taper the ends well enough. It seems an excessive amount of trouble to unravel and separate 7 or 8 inches of it.

It became obvious very quickly that nylon or boar bristles are easier to use than steel bristles. What else am I doing the slow way?
Probably nothing but tapering the Teklon.

Yes, Al is correct about it holding the wax especially if it is "old recipe" wax--heavy in pitch and rosin. Again...and something Al taught me...keep a ball of wax at your bench and refresh or rewax the inseaming thread every x number of stitches.

I have found that if I use hot melt wax (Nasser uses it straight up) and blend it with pitch and rosin I get a wax that will hold pretty well to the Teklon. The trick is not to make it so brittle that it wants to flake off the dacron.

Beyond that, if you study the problem and the reasons shoemakers used wax in the first place, one of the main reasons was as an anti-bacterial agent to protect the organic fiber--the hemp or linen--from all the beasties that thrive in the jungle that is the shoe.

With a synthetic thread you don't need that protection.

The other reason was to seal the holes and lock the threads in the insole. Any wax on Teklon will seal the holes, never fear, esp. if you are rewaxing regularly.

Now admittedly the wax will not lock the Teklon in like it will the linen. That's why you need to throw a hitch in the stitches...every three stitches or even every stitch. Do that and any problem you imagine with regard to slippage will be substantially reduced if not, for all intents and purposes, eliminated.

Finally and back to the tapering of Teklon...it will never be as fast as using pre-tapered dacron strings (no pitch or rosin in that wax, guaranteed) but if you take the time to learn it, quickly tapering a Teklon string to super fine points is not much more laborious or time consuming than tapering linen.

Just takes practice and a little organization.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#431 Post by lancepryor »

I tried some Teklon on a pair of shoes I recently inseamed. It was nice to not have to worry about snapping the cord, I must say. Seems like the dimensions of the thread (8 cord) is a bit smaller than that of my plied-up linen thread (9 threads), so I may need to change to a bit smaller awl. My home-made hand wax, made of boiled-down Auson's kiln-burned pine tar, rosin and beeswax, adhered pretty darned well. I did re-wax a couple of times, but that is an easy task.

I found making the tapered end not too challenging, though it did take a bit of time. Untwisting the Teklon is pretty easy, and I used the back side of a knife to cause each individual thread to splay out, then cut the splayed thread at an angle to create an individual taper on each thread. The end thread, for the fine taper at the end, I separated into a couple of sections and then shredded with the back of the knife. It probably took 15 minutes for the whole thing. This is faster than I am able to make a plied-up and tapered linen cord, because the Barbour's US linen hand thread has 'kinks' as it comes out of the tube, which definitely slows me down.

I remain conflicted about the use of Teklon vs. linen, but I can understand and appreciate the arguments in its favor.

Dan, one thing I've found helpful in the use of a nylon bristle is to use a pair of needle-nosed pliers to put some striations across the bristle after its been sanded. I just squeeze the bristle in the pliers to get the impressions of the plier's teeth in the bristle section that will be waxed (where the thread will go). The additional texture created by the plier's teeth really helps the wax adhere to the bristle before you wrap the taw onto the thread.

When I get a chance, I'll post a pic of my used bristle/thread. I had no problems with any slipping of the thread on the bristle.

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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#432 Post by dw »

lancepryor wrote:I found making the tapered end not too challenging, though it did take a bit of time. Untwisting the Teklon is pretty easy, and I used the back side of a knife to cause each individual thread to splay out, then cut the splayed thread at an angle to create an individual taper on each thread. The end thread, for the fine taper at the end, I separated into a couple of sections and then shredded with the back of the knife. It probably took 15 minutes for the whole thing. This is faster than I am able to make a plied-up and tapered linen cord, because the Barbour's US linen hand thread has 'kinks' as it comes out of the tube, which definitely slows me down.
That's the way I do it but after I have splayed the cords, I cut all but one about an inch to inch and a half shorter--so I have a "leader" cord. Next I separate one cord from the uncut bundle and lay it alongside the "leader." Then I cut the whole bundle half an inch shorter. Separate another from the bundle and cut the bundle half an inch shorter. Continue until the last cord has been shortened a half an inch.

From there I use the back of my knife to splay the end if each cord and cut at an angle as lance described.

I've been doing this this way for probably 15 (?) years. I think it takes all of five or six minutes per taw. Again probably not any longer than tapering a linen thread (when using linen, I skein off and taper almost simultaneously).

Maybe a bit fussy, but it doesn't take all that long.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#433 Post by danfreeman »

Well, thank you for the additional replies. I am still recovering from the shock of my successful attempts--it's a great feeling, when you finally master a difficult technique--though I shouldn't say "mastered, " yet. And it's taken 40 years! But several successfully nylon-sewn welts have convinced me, especially when I saw how much faster Matthew picked it up, after having sewn only a few pairs--only the first one with the wire bristles, and it was his last.

Lance, I will surely try plier-crimping, sanding is not quite enough roughness. And I had not considered that anything could be stickier than pitch/rosin, but will add a small jolt of Nasser-recommended stitcher hard wax to my next ball of wax.
Making the thread from yarn (hemp or linen), or by unraveling Teklon or similar unwaxed threads, offer one big advantage, at least to us beginners: if the end fails, you can retaper, rewax, and rebristle. I have found that when I have a failure (they are getting rarer!), the dacron taper is usually broken off too short to reuse--unnecessary time and expense to start a new thread. DW, your suggested method of tapering the bundle sounds excellent, I will try it. Do you then use Al Stohlman's method, dragging the thread under the sharp edge of the knife across the table top?

Thanks!

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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#434 Post by dw »

danfreeman wrote:DW, your suggested method of tapering the bundle sounds excellent, I will try it. Do you then use Al Stohlman's method, dragging the thread under the sharp edge of the knife across the table top?
Never found that to be a reliable method. I scrape/splay each end with the back of my knife for a distance of about an inch/inch and a quarter--I spread it into a "fan" shape and then simply cut it at an angle.

Like Lance, I treat the "leader" cord a little differently. I spread it for a distance of about three or four inches and then separate out roughly fifty fibers (that's a wild guess--I want them to roll up into a strand about the thickness of a human hair). The rest of the fibers in the leader cord I cut an inch shorter and then cut at an angle.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#435 Post by danfreeman »

Lance and DW,

I get the idea that, using Teklon or linen or hemp yarn, you are cutting the ends of the strands--at an angle. Is this the case? I have always found it necessary to fray the end--either by untwisting and pulling, or by Al Stohlman's method--to produce a point fine enough to start wrapping around the bristle. Thanks!
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#436 Post by dw »

Dan,

See if these help...

Unraveling the Teklon...dull side of knife used not the blade
DSC00606.JPG
Cutting the strands
DSC00610.JPG
Strands cut
DSC00611_2.jpg
Splaying the strands...side of knife used not the blade
DSC00614.JPG
Tapering the strands
DSC00617.JPG


All strands tapered...now you need to wax and retwist.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#437 Post by dw »

danfreeman wrote:Lance and DW,

I get the idea that, using Teklon or linen or hemp yarn, you are cutting the ends of the strands--at an angle. Is this the case? I have always found it necessary to fray the end--either by untwisting and pulling, or by Al Stohlman's method--to produce a point fine enough to start wrapping around the bristle. Thanks!
Dan,

Linen and hemp respond very differently when making the taw than does Teklon. Esp. contemporary linen--the fibers are so short you can almost pluck them out selectively with your fingers.

Teklon must be tapered by cutting the fibers if you want a reliable, even taper. The filaments/strands are so long, I wouldn't be surprised if each one was the length of the entire spool of cordage. You're not going to scrape them or pull them out to make a taper.

Sure, you can use Stohlman's method, or even try to taper the end of each Teklon cord with sandpaper, but the results will be ragged and uneven. Sometimes so much so that the individual cord is foreshortened and no longer has a place, sequentially, in the taper/taw. DAMHIKT.

I hope that's all understandable.

PS...click on the last photo above, do it twice and you will see how fine the very tip of the "leader" is (lower right hand corner).
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#438 Post by danfreeman »

Aha! One picture is worth, etc. The texture and feel of the Texlon was new and strange to me; the answer is to learn how to work with it. Your words and pictures allowed me to see what's needed, and why. NOW, practice will produce proficiency. So much help: so much time not wasted. Thank you.

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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#439 Post by islandpiper »

As much as i appreciate tradition and traditional methods, there are times when modern materials fill the bill with no appreciable difference in the finished product. I was in a fabric store with my wife last week, as she is an avid seamstress. The "NOTIONS" area called to me and i found these, nylon needle threaders:
1.JPG


By threading them as if they are a regular needle, and then opening the twist of the stitching thread, the point may be run through the thread and then the whole may be worked down, thus accomplishing nearly the same thing as a waxed end.....in just a few seconds.
4.JPG
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#440 Post by dw »

No offense but "accomplishing nearly the same thing" is not the same thing. Steel bristles...soldered or twisted...accomplish the same thing. A thin harness needle will accomplish the same thing. A hooked awl will accomplish nearly the same thing.

The great advantage of a boar's bristle (or nylon bristle) is that, done correctly, the thread tapers onto the bristle in such a way as to make the transition smooth and as close to frictionless as possible. And that makes pulling both taws simultaneously not just possible but easy-peasy--thus facilitating rapid, tight inseaming and setting up a rhythm that makes the job enjoyable.

Without seeing that transition area, using the method you describe, it is hard to evaluate. Could you post another photo...of the bristle/thread connection when the thread is ready to use?
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#441 Post by dw »

To illustrate...here's a photo of a pair of Adelaides I'm working on. The thread is 3 cord. The bristle is 25# mono wrapped and counterwrapped. The harness needle is a relatively thin harness needle as these things are measured. If you look closely, it becomes readily apparent that the taw of the waxed end is smaller than the harness needle.

BTW you can click on this photo for a closer look.
DSCF2554.JPG
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#442 Post by dw »

I should add that the same kind of thin transition/taper can be achieved with 10 cord thread if the taw is tapered correctly. I posted the photo of using three cord not only because I had it right in front of me but also to show that the same method and the same bristle can be used both for inseaming and outseaming.

Heck, the same method can be used for round closing with two cord and 15(?)lb. bristle.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#443 Post by islandpiper »

Years ago i purchased some of this to keep the "hemp" windings of my pipes on the tenons. May or may not be what some of you like, but is another source.

http://www.hendersongroupltd.com/Cart/p ... tegory=133
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#444 Post by dw »

islandpiper wrote:Years ago i purchased some of this to keep the "hemp" windings of my pipes on the tenons. May or may not be what some of you like, but is another source.

http://www.hendersongroupltd.com/Cart/p ... tegory=133

Looks interesting. Have you used it? What's its temper? is is soft, brittle or somewhere in between?

I donated some Vesta Pech to a piper some years ago. It was great shoemaker's wax but I never heard whether it worked for the pipes.

How about the hemp? Have you tried any of Henderson's hemp? Is it really hemp and not just flax re-labeled?
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#445 Post by islandpiper »

This wax works fine on my pipes. The deal is this: One needs a fairly clean, i.e. not waxed, hemp to seal pipe joints, yet allow for disassembly...and it needs to swell slightly with the breath moisture, but not so much that the piper cannot take it all apart or adjust the position of the slides, etc. But, clean, dry, new hemp does not stay on the tenons. So, "black wax" as pipers refer to it is used on the first foot or so of new windings and then the hemp stays put. i'm not a shoe/boot maker so the needs may be a bit different, and the "feel" of the wax here seems to be critical, where as with pipers, if it sticks, that's great.

I don't know any test to tell if a thread is flax or hemp. I do know that i have gotten some "hemp" from a far foreign country that was yellow dyed cotton, not worth much. And, i have gotten some real piper's hemp that is incredibly strong for it's diameter. Attempting to simply break it between your hands leaves cuts about the same size. Picking it apart reveals really long, individual fibers of a different nature than cotton.

piper
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#446 Post by islandpiper »

As requested, here are a couple of snaps of the nylon "needle threader" made up to do bristle duty, with the single end run back through the thread and snugged up, then bees waxed. piper
P7140995.JPG
P7140994.JPG
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#447 Post by dw »

islandpiper wrote:As requested, here are a couple of snaps of the nylon "needle threader" made up to do bristle duty, with the single end run back through the thread and snugged up, then bees waxed. piper
Thank you for posting those photos. Very interesting. Certainly looks like it would work even if only for "quick and dirty". I am going to look for some of those next time I get into town.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#448 Post by islandpiper »

By the way DW, that waxed end you showed above is indeed a thing of beauty. Now, if i can find a nylon hog with long bristles i'll have it made, and i'll practice till i can do something like that. Then, in a decade or so I'll have the first shoe ready to last.... and the rest will be history.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#449 Post by dw »

islandpiper wrote:By the way DW, that waxed end you showed above is indeed a thing of beauty. Now, if i can find a nylon hog with long bristles i'll have it made, and i'll practice till i can do something like that. Then, in a decade or so I'll have the first shoe ready to last.... and the rest will be history.
Well, yah...that's the way it worked for me too. Only I didn't wait...I had to use even my culls. That's why I've tried near every technique and every material and made ever dern mistake that's ever been made. And, as you say, the rest is history.

:beers:
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#450 Post by islandpiper »

Clive Cussler wrote about twenty books, and FINALLY when one really hit the big time he says he became an instant, overnight success.
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