Bristling at the very suggestion

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Message
Author
danfreeman
3
3
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:00 am
Full Name: Dan Freeman

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#451 Post by danfreeman »

I will have to object to the nylon loop being used as a bristle for welt sewing, please take no offense, islandpiper. I assume you are using them properly, that is, folding the tapered end pretty close to the tip, then stabbing through and pulling all back smoothly. (Often, in an attempt to strengthen the joint, too much thread is present at the fold, producing a lump.) But when you do it right, there is truly no place where the thread/bristle joint is thicker than the thread's full thickness, therefore, no undue stretching of the holes.

However, there is a difference in the taper that you can feel, and the loop bristle is probably not as long as those we cut for easy grabbing. These two seemingly minor factors caused me more trouble than I knew, during the thirty five years I sewed welts with loop bristles. I used wire bristles, different of course from nylon. But the increased ease with which I now sew welts is attributable to this change. But that's just my opinion.

Dan
islandpiper
1
1
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:47 pm
Full Name: Keith Davis
Location: S.E.Louisiana, USA, Earth, Third planet from Sol
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#452 Post by islandpiper »

Dan Freeman, no offense taken of course. I am here as a total dummy, as i am not a shoemaker. I just do leather work on the side and evenings for fun. I may never make a shoe, and if i do, it will be a struggle to make the OTHER shoe. These previously mentioned nylon loops work fine for the stitching it do, on holsters, dog collars and fitted cases. piper
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#453 Post by dw »

I tried those nylon loops from Dritz...just had to see if they would be a good temporary bristle, maybe for very short runs...and they do work.

But you have to be so careful with them they're almost not worth the effort, in my opinion. When you're pulling on the bristle, if you get any part of the flesh on your thumb or forefinger inside the loop, the bristle will split open right to the tip. It's a throw away long before its time.

The idea is good...although probably not for the rigours of full-on inseaming...but you really have to be careful with them.

Anyway...never say I'm the kind of person who dismisses things out of hand...

:2cents:
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#454 Post by lancepryor »

I sewed on an outsole a few days ago, using a cord of 4 plies of #10 linen shoe thread. The square awl I use is pretty small, and the sewing was done at 10 spi.

Here is a picture of the bristle and the thread, with the full-diameter thread next to the bristle. This is after 187 stitches. The bristle was not split, just used full thickness with a nice hand wax and a very fine 'taw' on the thread.

If you compare this to the pictures posted by DW in this thread, you can compare the transition between bristle and thread. As noted earlier, I prefer the natural boar's bristle.

Image

Lance
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#455 Post by dw »

Lance,

It's a very nice taper and transition. That's what it should look like. :thumb:

Even though a 30# nylon bristle is roughly the same diameter as a natural boar's bristle I don't think eight strands of anything will wrap up as nice as four.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
User avatar
homeboy
6
6
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Full Name: Jake Dobbins
Location: Mountain View, AR
Has Liked: 111 times
Been Liked: 30 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#456 Post by homeboy »

Lance,

That looks NICE! :thumb:
What one man has done....another can do.
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: The Gallery

#457 Post by carsten »

dw wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:25 am Well, whether it is HK or AP you're using, You can glue the lining into the feather around the toe, as you are wiping. I glue and wipe the toe just to set the lining, then I mount the stiffener and, as it is usually insole shoulder, shape it . In the process i cut/file a 'rabbet' into it to mirror the feather in the insole. Then when I pull the vamps i wipe glue and wipe it all into that feather. So when you pull the strip it is not only secure in place but clearly defined.
After growing a lot more gray hair than when I started out trying, I have to admit, that so far I never figured out how to use bristles for sewing the welt, although I really tried to follow your videos. Only when I was wiping the toe including glueing everything together in the toe area like you say, I realized that only in that area I can feed two opposing bristles easily through the "holfast/lining/upper/welt"-stack. On the side of the shoe however -(where I never used HK to keep things together)- the bristles always get stuck, even though I tried to sand the tips of the nylon fishing line - no matter what diameter of bristles I am using. Somehow pushing and retracting the awl through the stack always leads to some relative movement between the layers that can not be followed by the bristles afterwards (at least for the second bristle in most cases). Therefore I was pretty much exclusively using bent needles for welting so far. Do you also glue the lining+upper onto the feather along the entire welt ? Will this solve the problem, is there another trick or simply lack of practice? Any hint would be very much appreciated.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#458 Post by dw »

@carsten

No, I don't glue the lining to the insole all around. Only in the toe area and only to create the stability needed to wipe the toe.

When using boar's bristle or nylon bristles, the most common mistake, in my experience is to think about them as needles. While they fulfill that function, they are not needles.

Everyone has the same problem when they first begin. The thing is that if you think of them as needles and treat them as needles, they will behave as needles. Neither needles nor steel bristles will willingly follow the curved path from the holdfast through the lining, vamp and welt. Yes, you can bend a steel bristle but nine times out of ten you will still have to force it through the layers of leather anyway. And yes, forcing it through is an option for steel bristles, one that nylon bristles simply won't accept.

The truly brilliant thing about bristles (real bristles--boar's or nylon) is that they will follow that curved path. Willingly, almost joyfully, if you but let them. Sometimes they will even find their way through the hole if the layers are loose or slightly offset.

It's sappy I suppose to say this but it is also correct--you have to seduce the bristles, you can't force them. When you hole the insole during inseaming, hold everything tight against the last. [This is why it is important to always start with the shoe pointed towards your body and across the insole with your preferred hand--it allows you to hold everything against the last and the edge of the insole with your off hand. Always inseam from the insole to the welt--the same way you hole the insole.]

When you have pierced the upper and welt, slowly withdraw the awl such that the tip of the awl is just hidden in the leather--this is just an awkward way of saying that the bristle must follow the awl as it is withdrawn.

Now, here's the critical thing (and you may not have perfect success at first--it is a skill like any other) and will require some practice to get it right: Grasp the bristles well away from the tip of the bristle--two inches more or less. Feed the bristle into the hole and let it flex; let it follow the curve of the hole; let it find the hole--it will, if you don't try to control it. Think of it as guiding the bristle though the hole with mental energy only (telekinesis0--you need to be that gentle and have that light a touch.

That's it! That's the secret--be gentle, don't force. Romance the bristle.

I had one of my students tell me that he thought the advantage of steel was that you could bend it to the same shape as the awl. True enough. What was missing is that if you use your thumbnail against your index finger you can 'curl' the bristle in a similar manner. And that can be useful. But ofttimes, in most locations going around the feather, the bristle needs to be flat or only gently curved, so again, be gentle with the bristle. It's hair, not steel. Don't expect it to be steel.

There's no guarantee. This is, again, a skill. But when I have trouble with inseaming, I almost always find that I have been choking-up on the bristle.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#459 Post by carsten »

Thank you very much for the explanation @dw . I got myself a big reel of fishing line - so I should have plenty bristles to practice with. Your are right, I did try to use them as a needle. I guess I really pushed too hard, because in the end they had always some permanent folding marks.

"Seducing the bristles" is nicely put :-) Maybe I will start talking to them, if after your explanation they still resist.

Come to think of it - I always started welting exactly opposite to how you explain it. I always started pointing the shoe away from the body. I don´t understand yet why this could make a difference but wil change that for the next time.

I will keep trying....
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#460 Post by dw »

carsten wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:54 am I don´t understand yet why this could make a difference but wil change that for the next time.
@carsten

It makes a difference because first, the awl is increasingly thicker towards the haft/handle. If you hole or inseam from the outside in, the hole itself will be larger, more open, closest to the world (and the accompanying moisture and dirt), simply because the haft of the awl blade is wider. And, in theory, we want the hole to be as small as it can be and still get the threads through. It should be so tight that not onluy is pull the thread hard...sometimes seemingly impossible...but the wax melts from the friction. This is especially true on the upper/welt side of the inseam.

Second, if you inseam with the toe toward you and across the insole, your off hand is positioned perfectly to hold the welt and the upper close to the last ahead of the point of emergence for the awl. Keeps the welt taut (when you want it taut) and keeps all layers locked and pressed close to the last as you withdraw the awl.

Third, you hole the insole in the same way for all the same reasons but just as importantly, it's practice for the actual inseaming.

Once you get the hang of this you will wonder why in the world anyone would inseam with a needle or steel bristle if they had any alternative.

Unfortunately, all too often when we convince ourselves that we can't--can't sharpen a knife, can't inseam with bristles--we get locked into whatever alternative/expedience we can muster and have a hard time changing course. Have a hard time trying again with bristles when you know steel does work, albeit clumsily.

When I began I had a hard time keeping the taw on nylon bristles. I just couldn't get it to work for me. So I began substituting All Purpose cement for the wax on the bristles and the taw. Little talcum powder on the wraps and, by the gods, that worked. But every time i set out to inseam, I felt like I was letting myself down, if not the team...and I knew I was a fraud. So, against all instincts (for easy) i went back to the drawing board and examined my wax, my taw, my bristles, and my wrapping technique. Wasn't the next day but eventually I got it.

That's also where I got my, ultimately unsatisfactory, experience with steel bristles. When the nylon bristles pulled loose, I had to resort to steel. Almost committed to steel but it was the same set of considerations. And somewhere, down deep, I knew that it would be easier and much more satisfying if I learned to do it the 'old' way.

Underlying all that is the recognition that shoemaking is an old, old Trade. Nearly everything that could be tried, has been tried. (I've even seen real old metal bristles made of lead or lead alloy). Those techniques that survived had been through the fire; those that didn't become widespread, didn't for a reason.

I've come to the conclusion that when you get right down to...whether you implement them or not in your own business...virtually across the board, every Traditional technique, no matter how obscure, results in a better quality shoe or boot than any recent alternative. And often much easier and much more pleasant to do.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#461 Post by carsten »

@dw
I am sorry. I think I may have not expressed myself correctly. Please let me try again: What I was trying to say: If you have a shoe and the toe is pointing away from the body, while the heel is pointing towards the body. In this case one could start the welting on the left side or on the right side of the shoe. If I start the welt on the right side, in order to push the awl throught the holdfast from the insole out, its seems to me most suitable to point the toe toward the body. This way the left hand (off hand - is that called off hand??) holds the welt in place while the right hand can push the awl through the holdfast. If I understand correctly this is what you are advising. I did not mean to enter the awl on the welt and exit the holdfast. I merely meant that I seem to start the welt always on the left side of the shoe making my way around the toe toward the right side. This way I also hold the welt with my left hand and poke the awl with the right hand. This way I also exclusively enter the holdfast fist. This is what I meant, when I said I don´t know why it would make a difference. Too me it just appeard to be a different welting direction by exchanging only the start and end positions of the welt, while keeping the benefits you described. Does that make sense?

I do get your point about falling back on techniques that sort of worked and that it takes energy passing a threshold abandoning them to what feels like a step back at first. Clearly the proven techniques have a lot of merit because people used them to make their living with it - so I they had to be as efficient and good as possible.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#462 Post by dw »

@carsten

No, you've got it right. No need to be sorry.

I did not mean to suggest that you were holing or inseaming incorrectly...ie. from the outside in (although I see a fair amount of that on IG and elsewhere). I merely wanted to draw a clear connection between the reasons for doing it with the toe towards you and across your body.

When I give advice, I have to be constantly aware that my words will be here for a long time...probably, hopefully, long past my time...and read by others perhaps not directly engaged in this conversation.

I think you're on the right track...to paraphrase yourownself---"keep on keepin' on (trying.)"

:thumb:
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#463 Post by dw »

Somewhat OT, but not really, I felt moved to offer these further observations (which because they are part of a conversation I was having with another shoemaker, may seem a bit disjointed in places):

It is often hard in this day and age...maybe even massively daunting...to find first, a teacher, and then, to source the tools and materials and the leathers to make quality shoes.

Coming out of the Depression, shoemakers were notoriously secretive and apprenticeships (much less simple seminars) were unheard of. Most new shoemakers actually have an advantage that I never had. And good shoemakers who are also willing to give advice or teach have always been scarce on the ground. In fact, there are more would-be teachers around now than when I began, although most will charge for their time. And many aren't really qualified by any objective standard.

On that score, it has been my experience that the real 'coin' of learning is, and always has been, sincerity, persistence, and determination. Sometime you have to visit a maker a number of times to convince him that you're not going to be wasting his time. Sometimes you have to beg. :wink_smile:

On the subject of bristles and by extension, inseaming thread, as an example--while I use Maine Thread, they are not the only company in the world that produces dacron/polyester thread. But more importantly, even as I use dacron and consider it close to an ideal material, the real eason I use it is that linen and hemp production is so changed and so diminished that using linen or hemp yarn (the Traditional method/material) is, IMO, ends up jeopardizing the quality of the shoe. And on that same note, although I have not tried it, I understand that some of the Asian makers are switching to ramie instead of linen. Can't speak to the strength or suitability.

And so it goes...with every aspect of the Trade--from tools to materials to leather to teaching.

Having said that, as with my use of dacron for inseaming, I think the key is to realize that one of the critical reasons to try...even perhaps to master...Traditional techniques and materials is to understand the concepts and the qualities that they bring to the table. For instance, once I had mastered using linen to make my inseaming threads, I felt no compunctions about substituting dacron for linen simply because I understood the why and the how. i still taper the dacron by hand, I still create my own hand wax. I still put it all together with a bristle. When I'm done making a thread, most novices, many journeymen and maybe even a few masters, would be hard pressed to tell the difference short of detailed examination.

Like all Crafts (with a capital "C") and consistent with my remarks about exacto knives etc., it's all part of a whole. It's all connected and interconnected. And when you truly commit to honouring the Traditions, nothing can be dismissed as too hard or too difficult to source or too time consuming or too 'old fashioned." It all counts, it's all relevant. And yet, everything is possible.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#464 Post by carsten »

Hooray! It finally worked!
I got my first inseam sewed completely with fishing line without the use of any needle.

After a lot of trials trying to follow the video from @dw and the post #458. I just wanted to share some of my observations.

In his videos DW talks about a "40 lbs Maxima" fishing line, which I could not get in Europe. DW states that the nylon fishing line he uses is nothing special. Well, I went through various fishing lines without success. To me three things appear to be important: Thickness, reel diameter and damp welt/upper. Bristle attachment appears to work with cement too.

If the line is too thin I find it almost impossible to split it. The maximum strength is not necessarily the determining factor - since now also heavy duty lines can be very thin. Further, if the reel diameter is small and the line has been sitting on it for a long time, the line will curl up and be too inflexible for inseaming. I got some good results with Trilene from Berkley. The line is called "Super Strong Trilene, 100% Fluorocarbon XL, Professional Grade, Size 0.6, 0.6061mm, clear.

I have tried to use hand wax from Pech Piering, to which I have added beeswax. For some reason I could not get the joint between the split bristle and the tapered dacron thread strong enough using hand wax only. A long time I was trying to get my hand on the often mentioned Vesta-Pech - but without success.

So I ended up cementing the two together (which might put a frown on some faces??). For this I dipped the split end of the bristle into cement and stripped off the excess glue with a brush. Likewise I pulled the end of tapered dacron through the cement-brush. After some drying time I twisted one split end of the bristle with the dacron while holding the left end of the bristle with my left hand. Then I put the other split end of the bristle over the twisted section and reversed the twist. Also I locked the bristle twice by poking a hole through the dacron and feeding the bristle through the hole. Finally I waxed the twisted section with beeswax. That appears to form a sufficiently strong connection between the bristle and the dacron.

I guess until I have optimized my hand wax I will stick with the cement mounted bristle, unless someone convinces me that this is not a good solution. At the moment still my hand wax appears to stick the dacron together in the holdfast but is still flaking off a little when I pull the thread through the upper - maybe I have to add a little more beeswax?

In the end I found the sewing with the bristle easier and quicker than to sew with a bent needle - especially if you follow DW's video on the "hand leather pieces / dance of the hands".

Thank you for your advice DW and happy St. Crispin's day to everybody if I don't get to write again until then!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#465 Post by dw »

@carsten

:thumb:

Sometimes the cheaper the nylon the easier it is to split. The Pech Perling...and actually anything but Vesta Pech or hand-made...was always a problem for me.Like you said it flakes off the thread. Additional beeswax will soften it and make it a little more cohesive but it is easy to make the wax too soft and not 'tacky' enough. Unless you are using a synthetic yarn (dacron) just waxing the thread without making it tacky defeats one of the major purposes for using hand wax at all. In fact, here in the States you can buy pre-made and pre-tapered threads that are dacron and they're all waxed with simple beeswax or paraffin.

I never found the reel size to be important. I always take the 'curl' out of the nylon with my thumbnail anyway--it make the nylon split easier (marginally). And that's one of the unique things about nylon bristles--you can bend them to whatever radius you want (even in a short section) with the same thumbnail technique. Bend it to follow the curve of th eawl more exactly.

I had a period in my career early on when I used cement instead of wax, as well. Not the best solution but workable. And your example there looks good. But don't abandon your efforts with the hand wax...you'll get it...and when you do, your wax will hold better in the insole and overall be better for it
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
nickb1
5
5
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:04 am
Full Name: Nick Bardsley
Location: Instagram 6am_shoemaker
Has Liked: 37 times
Been Liked: 51 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#466 Post by nickb1 »

dw wrote: Sat May 25, 2013 9:02 am I made a pair of boots for a farrier some years ago. He worked really hard in 'dirty' conditions--amidst barnyard acids--and he also perspired hard. At the time, I was making ten cord linen threads by waxing three cords, three more, a final four and then twisting and burnishing them all together...and this was Irish linen. After about six months he came in complaining that the welt was coming undone.
@dw I've been thinking on this ... The current bespoke makers over here mostly still use linen threads for welting, and have both inferior linen and inferior threadwax compared to times gone by, But I've never heard of this problem occurring. Maybe it does and people don't like to mention it. But it also seems likely that the wearer's trade is the main factor. I doubt anyone in such occupation here is currently wearing handsewn footwear given what it costs. From what I can make out in heavy work occupations in the UK, historically people mostly wore clogs, at least since the industrial revolution at which point such things are relatively well documented. (Clogs of all kinds, including a "wellington clog"...) Could this be among the reasons? You can sweat all day every day into a clog and it won't make any difference to longevity. Then again you also won't need to resole them especially the ones with iron rails on. How does this compare with the US? Did manual and factory labourers wear clogs or workboots? Cowboys surely wore boots but what about the others?

Incidentally and sadly, clogmaking in the UK seems about to die out. The last remaining commercial clogmaker Jeremy Atkinson (the real deal using knives not bandsaws) has said that he can't continue long for health reasons. Apart from that there is one guy doing it authentically in St Fagan's museum in Wales (@das this is a set up a bit like Colonial Williamsburg it seems) for tourists - as this is museum work it doesn't have to be commercially viable. I just received a pair of Lancashire clasp clogs from Jeremy btw. can post pics in the gallery. Perhaps these will be one of the last real pairs of Lancashire clogs ever made ... ?
To each foot its own shoe.
Instagram
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#467 Post by dw »

@nickb1 That's an old post!

I suspect it was the individual's body chemistry as well as his occupation. I never saw that problem before or after. But that said, I do believe that Teklon is the superior thread...for strength and longevity, if nothing else.
DWFII--HCC Member
Instagram
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#468 Post by das »

Interestingly, wood-soled shoes (clogs) were introduced in the US (then British Colonies) first in New Jersey, in 1704! An enterprising emigrant had his stay-at-home brother back in England (in Crosby near Liverpool) make and ship over a quantity of secondhand shoe uppers, "clogged" to new wood soles (the export tariffs in England for "old" versus "new" leather goods and shoes were dramatically lower). "Old" (refurbished second-hand) shoes had been exported out of England since the late 1500s (by the millions by a single entrepreneur annually!). The New Jersey clogs seemed to sell well, but the problem came when they'd worn down (suggesting no irons?), there not being any skilled clog sole makers over here to re-sole them, and thus the scheme was abandoned. Throughout the later 1700s there are refs. to "klompen" (wood soled shoes) in the Germanic enclaves of British N. America, and of course some "sabot" (all wood shoes) and "galoche" (wood soles with leather uppers) in French-colonized Canada.

Fast forward to c.1780s. In 1984, while digging-out an old drain in the yard of a building in Bradshaw Hall Estates, near Chapel-en-le-Firth, Derbyshire, UK, three mostly complete wood soled shoes were discovered, along with leather shoes and fragments, deposited with the City of Salford Cultural Resources Dept. I examined these closely in 1985, two clogs were made from second-hand shoe uppers, nailed onto new wood soles, and one appeared to be a purpose-made new upper, clogged when new. And, unlike the later mass-produced "Lancashire" clogs, the wooden soles of the Derbyshire examples were not protected with iron rims, but only a thick leather toppiece on the heel, and a thick leather halfsole in the forepart, studded all over with hobnails. Determined to try reproducing two pair of these, I had Jeremy Atkinson carve me wood soles, and leathered and hobnailed the bottoms (can post photos if wanted).

Wood soled shoes do not seem to pop back up in the records in the USA until the 1860s (our Civil War), when A.W. Fraps & Philip Thiem (ex-pat Germans?) set up The North Carolina Wooden Shoe Factory in 1861, a clog factory in Raleigh, North Carolina. Other American clog sole manufacturers had appeared around the same time (e.g. A. Scannell's catalogue, advertised light soles at .75 cents, heavy ones at .50 cents a pair). In 1860 Messers. Gray & Turley of Athens, Georgia advertised "well and strongly made" wooden soled clogs for slave-wear. Wooden soled shoes were also pressed into military service by some Confederate forces, because of the wartime leather shortages--one of these just fetched unmentionable (obscene) money at auction. Other contemporary US sources listed their practical application as cheap occupational footwear for everything from mining and slaughterhouse work, to protective wear in caustic dye and chemical plants. Unlike in the northern counties of the UK, US clogs never seemed to have been adopted as everyday wear, regional dress, nor anything fashionable. Curiously I'm not recalling any reliably dated 1800s US ones with irons on the bottom either, just bare wood, or leather nailed on. When steamships started plying the Atlantic from New York to Liverpool, and trans-Atlantic tourism for leisure started in earnest, that is when a flood of, usually child-sized, Lancashire clogs found in flea markets, antique malls today, and sadly mislabeled/IDed as much earlier in some museums, started coming into the USA as souvenirs.
nickb1
5
5
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:04 am
Full Name: Nick Bardsley
Location: Instagram 6am_shoemaker
Has Liked: 37 times
Been Liked: 51 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#469 Post by nickb1 »

das wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:49 am Determined to try reproducing two pair of these, I had Jeremy Atkinson carve me wood soles, and leathered and hobnailed the bottoms (can post photos if wanted).
@das that would be very interesting, please do post the pics. I thought you might know something about this, you did not disappoint ;-) Strange that no enterprising clog maker made it over the pond to fill that gap before the 1860s... Though I guess you mostly didn't leave unless you had to there were plenty of folks that had to.
The speed of the demise of clogmaking is amazing. It's said that every lowland Scottish village had a clogmaker for example. Now nobody seems either to know or care about it ... :sigh:
To each foot its own shoe.
Instagram
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#470 Post by das »

@nickb1 I'll hunt-up and scan the clog photos idc. Glad to not disappoint too, I try my best. I suppose that before US independence (1784) with the flood of imported English shoes ("old" and "new"), the local manufacture of shoes at all quality and price levels, there was simply not yet the demand nor enough "heavy" industries like coal mining where clogs were well suited. In the 1800s when industries did flourish here, our "Industrial Revolution", etc., the cheap, heavy, pegged shoes--as heavy and thick as clogs in some cases--served well enough. I remember on my rambles in the UK in the '80s, there were still clog makers scattered around up north. My GF at the time insisted I commission a pair from Mr. Chorley in Swindon, which I did. They are lovely. Still have them, but they are the most brutally painful things to wear and the irons really limit where you can wear them, certainly not inside the house, nor on polished floors anywhere or wet pavement or you go skating, LOL.
nickb1
5
5
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:04 am
Full Name: Nick Bardsley
Location: Instagram 6am_shoemaker
Has Liked: 37 times
Been Liked: 51 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#471 Post by nickb1 »

I can imagine they are very painful if not fitted right. Jeremy has done quite a good job on the ones I ordered I think... footbed fits quite well, if it needs more adjustment I'm sure I can sand a few bits off here and there with shoe tools e.g. the peg rasp. I didn't ask for the iron rails for the reasons you mention! Not much point unless you are going mining probably. I've been searching the "British Pathe" website for footage of shoe and clogmaking, quite an interesting historic resource, they have film footage going back to the 1890s. Apparently there was a resurgence of clog making and other wooden shoes during and just after WW2 when we still had rationing over here. The reason being wooden soled shoes did not require ration coupons. Mostly the new clogs it seems were sold with leather "treadpieces" on the soles, in place of the iron rails. If I have time I'll post some links. You can see silver brocade shoes being made for a royal wedding, the first stage of which is a kind of turnshoe technique. And footage of Lobb makers in the 1940s.
To each foot its own shoe.
Instagram
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#472 Post by carsten »

Ok- by now I have tried out the hemp thread from Toplicht, after always having been a bit suspicious of the artificial Dacron thread. The thinnest ends up being about 1,75mm in diameter after waxing, while the Dacron that I used before turned out to be more around 1.26mm in diameter. Well - inseaming was a nightmare and it turned out that the 3 stranded hemp tread not only does not taper well, but also it is most certainly too thick, since the fishing line often just tears off. So for the next pair I will go back to the Dacron....

However I have learned the following secret about fishing lines:

(By now I have a whole stock by now after not having been able to acquire the often mentioned Maxima line)

Splitting them can be a nightmare. However there is the following trick: The grand majority splits well under longitudinal tension.

Either you clamp the reel between your knees and pull the line away from the reel while you split it or you bite into the line and pull it away from the teeth while splitting it. Both techniques work well.
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#473 Post by das »

I never bothered splitting nylon, though some do. My trick was: merely crimp the end for wrapping the tapered taw around by squeezing it hard in the coarse teeth of my Timmons lasting pincers to raise some corrugations. Years ago in the UK they sold purpose-made "corrugated" (as well as smooth) pre-cut nylon bristles in waxed paper packets fir hand-sewing. Wax the bristle well before spinning the taw onto it. As long as your wax is a good, sticky, pine-pitch based stuff, I had zero adhesion issues.
carsten
3
3
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:24 am
Full Name: Carsten Metz
Has Liked: 4 times
Been Liked: 47 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#474 Post by carsten »

das wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:14 am I never bothered splitting nylon, though some do. My trick was: merely crimp the end for wrapping the tapered taw around by squeezing it hard in the coarse teeth of my Timmons lasting pincers to raise some corrugations. Years ago in the UK they sold purpose-made "corrugated" (as well as smooth) pre-cut nylon bristles in waxed paper packets fir hand-sewing. Wax the bristle well before spinning the taw onto it. As long as your wax is a good, sticky, pine-pitch based stuff, I had zero adhesion issues.
Well, to be honest I don't fancy being a "hair-splitter" either. :) By not doing it you have definitely saved yourself a lot of time and frustration.

I think in the end it all comes down to the thread diameter / taper. The thicker it is in relation to the holes in the hold fast the better the adhesion has to be.
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#475 Post by das »

In addition, whether splitting natural boar bristles, or un-split nylon ones, IMO what is key here is the good, sticky, pine pitch-based wax applied to both bristle and taw, then the proper tight-wrapping technique (up then back at the very tip of the taw, smooth steady tight wrapping, and the two lock-on holes through the thread below the taw to finish. Just before commencing to sew or stitch, a quick wipe of beeswax right on the wrapped taw (only), and that first stitch should go much smoother. After a few stitches the wrapping will burnish down and become even smoother-going. The other tip I'll just throw out is, do not pull on the bristle tip itself anymore than necessary--grab the wrapped portion and pull there as soon as possible.

With the purpose-made corrugated nylon bristles in the packets, I try to salvage and reuse them as often as I can, seeing as they are no longer made, and even plain wrapped (no split), extricating them from a left over taw is sometime nigh impossible, they're adhered so well.
Post Reply