Bristling at the very suggestion

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dw
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#401 Post by dw »

jon_g wrote:When it's all said and done it doesn't matter what you sewed it with, and I'm glad there are people out there who only use bristles, but I won't be switching back to bristles except for my occasional pair and only for the romance
I hear you...of course, I'm just the opposite. I started with steel bristles (really good ones too, back in the day) simply because I couldn't get the hang of boar's bristles...and went back to boar's bristles when I ran across 9" India Blond bristles from a paint brush manufacturer's rep.

Nowadays, I would use nylon in preference to any other material and especially when using fine (one or two cord) threads for skin stitching.
jon_g wrote:And I have the same policy, never drop your needles, it's just asking someone to walk over and step on your thread.
I used to be somewhat cavalier about this (again mostly because I didn't have the skill or know any better) contending that it didn't make any difference and if you kept your work area clean that was all that was necessary. To my great embarrassment, I think I even included that advice in a video I posted here some years ago.

But I learned my lesson on numerous occasions when I found myself getting knots in the inseaming thread. Wax some linen up with a good pitch-based hand wax and inadvertently try to pull it through the holdfast and see how quickly and how tightly the knot seizes up.

And watch DW spend the next 30-40 minutes trying to work that knot loose...but don't listen. :brickwall:

When I made the connection between those knots and dropping my bristles...finally...I set out to teach myself how to never drop them. I can't say I'm doing it the traditional way but maybe a close variation. At least I am no longer dropping my bristles.

I suspect the greatest advantage of never dropping your bristles is not the dirt on the floor but never getting knots. This is especially critical when you are working with smaller diameter threads such as when welt stitching or doing upper work. The knots are much harder to see and tighten down so much tighter.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#402 Post by jon_g »

Yes I think there's likely a few good reasons not to drop your threads.

I don't know that there's one traditional way to hold them, I've seen people hold them between their middle and index fingers, or ring and pinky, and in a Japanese (western) shoemaking book I've got, the photos show the maker holding the threads in his mouth. I usually use the first method. This was an aspect of sewing that I found slowed me down in the beginning, and I wanted to just let the threads drop to the floor, but perseverance paid off and now it's an automatic thing.

Nat, if you're treating your bristles like needles, why not come to the dark side and use needles. If you like I'll even send you a pair.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#403 Post by salsa »

jon_g wrote: I won't be switching back to bristles except for my occasional pair and only for the romance
Don't dismiss the romance. If a feller is honest with himself romance is the main reason we make shoes. If not, theres better money bagging groceries.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#404 Post by jon_g »

Agreed.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#405 Post by kemosabi »

Fantastic! Thank you for the offer Jon. I accept.
Started out using needles and never really made friends with this approach, although I've been curious to try heat-treated "proper" needles for awhile now. Besides; I'm too early-on in my career to get set in my ways.

I'd be happy to send you some of my fishing line if you like. (?)


BTW: I do all of my outseaming with round point harness needles.
Dark side... Ha :rofl:

Thx,
-Nat
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#406 Post by kemosabi »

Here's the fishing line I use. I got this roll 2nd hand and it looks like it's pretty old, so I have no idea if Jinkai has changed the formula or process for how it's manufactured.


Cheers,
-Nat
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#407 Post by dw »

Nat,

Thanks for posting those photos. Pretty much the way I did it.

But, I see one of your tricks right there--it's 150lb. test if I'm reading that right. I've never used anything heavier than 40lb. Using 30lb. currently.

Other than that the connection looks really good.

One thing that probably needs to be considered...not saying it's relevant in this case...is that, ideally, we want to make the holes in our holdfast and vamps as small as possible. That's the only way that the inseam gets anywhere near waterproof and dust proof. As the years have gone by I've gone to smaller and smaller inseaming awls and holing at 4 or even 5 holes (stitches) per inch.

I don't know how 150lb would work going through a small hole and pulling both needles at the same time.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#408 Post by kemosabi »

You're right. I use a heavy cord and larger awl so that everything is in proportion. Never had a problem with my boots leaking (crossing fingers) or coming apart. I can see the advantages of smaller holes though.

As usual DW, you give me something extra to think about! :)

Thx,
-Nat
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#409 Post by dw »

kemosabi wrote:As usual DW, you give me something extra to think about! :) Thx,
-Nat
I didn't mean to! :crackup:

Of course it's just like pegging--the smaller the hole relative to the size of the peg, the tighter the fit.

If we have a good sticky, pitch-y hand wax and fill the hole with thread, it will seal.

We can also use a thinner, lighter weight insole. I've successfully inseamed 6/7 iron insoles and if you'd talked to me about that 20 years ago, I would have been dubious.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#410 Post by kemosabi »

Speaking of inseaming 6-7 oz insoles:

I've examined fine ladies lace-up boots from the late 19th century and been amazed at the small tools and thin materials that were used. Outstanding workmanship at that small scale. I can only imagine how thick the insole was, or what the inseaming looked like, but the welt was stitched and trimmed so close that you could barely tell it was there. The outsole was single layer 7oz and the welt was around 3oz or so.

Maybe this is normal for some folks here (?), but I'd never seen anything like it... But then again there's plenty I haven't seen before. Confession is good for the soul, but bad for the reputation.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#411 Post by dw »

Unless I'm mistaken 6/7 iron is heavier than 6/7 ounce.

So I can't take any credit for doing anything special. I believe Al and no few dress shoe makers work with 6/7 iron insoles all the time.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#412 Post by kemosabi »

Sorry for any confusion, I meant to say "Speaking of 6 to 7 iron insoles" :doh:

The other ounce references were intentional.


Where can one find genuine boar's bristle nowdays?

Cheers,
-Nat
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#413 Post by lancepryor »

If you look in the "Sources" section, there is thread on boar's bristles. Information about the bristles available from Francis Classe is there.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#414 Post by dw »

kemosabi wrote:Where can one find genuine boar's bristle nowdays?

Cheers,
-Nat
Lance's suggestion is a good one if you are set on natural boar's bristles. My own opinion is that this is one area where traditional materials fall somewhat short of more modern options.

If you can split mono (and I've split 10lb.) there is no advantage to using a natural boars bristle. Nylon is stronger, even reusable if necessary and, can be cut to any length. A 9" boar's bristle is extraordinarily long, but I cut my nylon bristles to 11".

If I recall correctly one of the Vogel's sent me some common traditional European shoemaker's bristles at one point--they were no more than 4" long. And until I bought a kilo of the 9" India Blond I had never seen bristles longer than 7".

I said above that I was using 30lb. monofilament. I misspoke, it is actually 25lb. Of course, it is not the test that is important but the diameter...some 30lb. mono will be smaller in diameter than some 20lb. What I'm using (the 25lb.) is close to the diameter of a 9" boar's bristle...maybe a little finer.

PS...on edit...perhaps the greatest advantage of nylon over natural bristles is that the nylon is easy to find/come by. Same with dacron inseaming thread over linen.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#415 Post by lancepryor »

dw wrote:
kemosabi wrote:Where can one find genuine boar's bristle nowdays?

Cheers,
-Nat
Lance's suggestion is a good one if you are set on natural boar's bristles. My own opinion is that this is one area where traditional materials fall somewhat short of more modern options.

If you can split mono (and I've split 10lb.) there is no advantage to using a natural boars bristle. Nylon is stronger, even reusable if necessary and, can be cut to any length. A 9" boar's bristle is extraordinarily long, but I cut my nylon bristles to 11".

If I recall correctly one of the Vogel's sent me some common traditional European shoemaker's bristles at one point--they were no more than 4" long. And until I bought a kilo of the 9" India Blond I had never seen bristles longer than 7".

I said above that I was using 30lb. monofilament. I misspoke, it is actually 25lb. Of course, it is not the test that is important but the diameter...some 30lb. mono will be smaller in diameter than some 20lb. What I'm using (the 25lb.) is close to the diameter of a 9" boar's bristle...maybe a little finer.

PS...on edit...perhaps the greatest advantage of nylon over natural bristles is that the nylon is easy to find/come by. Same with dacron inseaming thread over linen.
I guess I would disagree with DW here, to some extent. To me, for outsole stitching with a square awl, and at say 10 to 12 spi, a boar's bristle is superior to the fishing line bristle (as least that I've used). A couple of reasons why: the bristle is stiffer than the nylon, which to me makes it easier to get through the small holes made by the square awl, while being as small or smaller than the fishing line (I compared a fairly robust boar's bristle to 25 pound fishing line, and it was slightly smaller in diameter); and, it is easier, at least for me, to put the thread onto a boar's bristle than the fishing line. The natural texture of the bristle is somewhat rough, perfect for waxing and also seemingly adhering the thread well, whereas the nylon must be roughed up and/or crimped, and even then it is somewhat slippery.

As I've written previously, I don't like doing a split bristle for inseaming or outsole stitching; I just cannot make as smooth a transition from the bristle alone to the bristle/thread area as I can with an unsplit bristle. Hence, it seems like the split bristle gets hung up and strips the thread off more often (exacerbated by the slipperiness of the nylon). Furthermore, since I use linen thread, if the thread does comes undone/slips, with a split bristle it is all over but the tears, since the taper will get snapped and then will be a @@#@@$@$ to reattach to a bristle. Try separating and re-tapering a well waxed linen cord if you want an exercise in frustration! An unsplit bristle is easy to re-wrap, since a slipped thread retains its very fine taper.

I've also done some closing with the boar's bristles vs. nylon bristles ('round' closing and 'split and lift' closing), and in this context there is, for me, no comparison; the boar's bristle is far superior due to its greater stiffness for a given diameter. In this application I do split the bristle, but again the boar's bristle has greater adhesive qualities than the nylon, at least in my experience.

That is not to say boar's bristles are always superior; I use nylon for inseaming, since I like a long bristle -- I try to have a very long taper (since I have 8 or 9 threads to stagger in the taper), and also a long end beyond where the thread is attached. Such an arrangement is impossible with a boar's bristle. Plus, I use a pretty heavy line (40 or 50 lb test) for inseaming, which is stronger than any boar's bristle.

As to the greater availability of monofilament, no real argument there, except that as long as Francis has some of the bristles, they are easy to get!

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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#416 Post by dw »

Lance,

Of course now we're splitting hairs. :rofl:

Let me say at the outset that I'm glad you disagree...it provides a different perspective for members, fosters the sharing of information and encourages more discussion--all of which is good (and a primary goal of admin).

I concede that boar's bristles are stiffer than nylon (although nylon comes in so many different stiffnesses it's difficult to evaluate a generalization of that nature) but most of the time I don't want that stiffness. I don't want limp either but in order to "turn the corner" a bristle has to have the flexibility to deflect off the walls of the hole in the holdfast. That said, I don't see a downside in stiffness when it comes to outsole stitching. An application I suspect I need to revisit.

Over the years I have gone back and forth between splitting and simple wrapping as a means of attaching the taw. Mostly out of laziness or expediency but sometimes, for the sake of people just getting into shoemaking, I have to concede that making up a waxed end with a split bristle...natural or nylon...is much more difficult than simply wrapping the taw around the bristle. Splitting a nylon bristle is not for the faint of heart or those who get easily frustrated.

But that's where my experience has differed from yours. I've worked with nylon bristles for a long time. [I may be mistaken, but I think I was one of the first, if not the first, to split nylon bristles on a regular basis.] And I have found that I break more taws and loose more bristles wrapping than with the split bristle method.

Of course, that might be just me. But much of this depends on how you prepare your thread, and even, I suppose, what kind of thread you use.

But, from a mechanical/engineering POV, it makes sense that a split bristle, if prepared correctly will be a much more secure attachment than simple wraps. Simply because the technique is at bottom fundamentally the same--tight wraps--but with a split bristle you have the extra "leg" which wraps over the taw protecting it from abrasion as it passes through the hole and by the other bristle. The taw is wrapped but it is also sandwiched between the two legs of the bristle.

With a simple wrapped technique the wraps are "proud" of the surface of the bristle...no protection at all. If everything is perfect...taper, tip, wraps, wax, bristle...it works--better than logic would predict.

And it works better on natural boar's bristle than it does on nylon, no question.

With relatively short fibered linen thread such as is available to us today, it is hard to get a really fine taper which is also strong. And a fine taper/tip is essential to the simple wrap technique, if only because it reduces that exposure of the proud wraps.

With dacron thread I can get a taper that is literally finer than a human hair and it will be...I'm guessing...at least three to four times stronger than a similar taper/tip on linen. Maybe more.

I wish I could get a photo of sufficient contrast and close enough to illustrate how fine the tip can be/should be and how refined is the transition from the wraps to the full thickness of the thread. I'm going to keep trying for that "money shot" but for now the description will have to do.

The one thing I would say is that in all of this, in all the years I've been making, the best thing I have learned is that most of these different methods work. To the extent that I cannot make them work satisfactorily, it almost always comes down to me not giving it a fair chance. In my career I have gone back and forth between simple wraps and split wraps any number of times simply because I learned something that made me think I could do better. Because my skill levels had increased. Because some new trick or material came to my attention. The interesting thing is that in almost every case, as my mastery increased the technique became both easier and more appropriate to the task.

I can understand people not wanting to fool with bristles (natural or nylon) because it takes too much time. That's fine...after we sweep up the scraps who's to know? But I'm here to tell anyone who cares to listen that inseaming with bristles...esp. nylon bristles...is not only doable but a joy if done correctly; if time is taken to master the technique.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#417 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

I really would love to see an in-focus shot of your wrapped split bristle, if you ever succeed in getting one! One question, because I've had less success than you. When you counter-wrap with the second leg, how tightly do you wrap it -- does the leg get wrapped so the mono is touching the previous 'wrap' (as is the case with the actual thread for the first inch or two), or it more loosely wrapped? When I've tried it, the mono is always more loosely wrapped, but even then the combination of the thread and the two legs is kind of bulky relative to the unsplit mono alone. I do see the benefit of protecting the thread from abrasion, but I've just never had success in getting that very smooth transition to the threaded portion of the nylon bristle. Perhaps I need to use a lower test nylon, as I've typically used 40 lb or even 50 lb for inseaming. I do use 25 lb when outsole stitching.

I do find the greater stiffness of the boar's bristle nice for outsole stitching -- the holes are relatively straight but small, so the stiffness helps to hit the holes and penetrate them from the sole side, and of course with a 1/4" welt/sole thickness, great length isn't needed. I don't find the bristle needs to be able to 'follow the curve' so much for this application, since the hole is short and pretty straight. For a beveled waist, I like the stiffness for finding the welt-side hole up tight against the upper (I find nylon too soft/flexible), and you can put a curve on the boar's bristle pretty easily.

I'm about to try some Teklon for inseaming, so I'll see how that goes; perhaps a split/counter wrapped bristle would be a good idea there, but we shall see!

Thanks,
Lance
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#418 Post by kemosabi »

Thanks for the source.

At this point my interest in boars bristles is mostly for the sake of "romance", and I figure a well supplied shop should have a box of them on hand for when the mood strikes. Plus; a nice little wooden box looks better on a maker's bench than a roll of fishing line on a plastic reel. :)

-Nat
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#419 Post by dw »

Lance, all,

Well, I took some photos...I don't know if they will convey the scale of the materials and techniques I use, but maybe...

First, I thought I would add these figures:
  • the 25# trilene mono mics out at .019"
  • the 40# Maxima mics out at .024"
  • a heavy black boars bristle mics out at .019"
  • an average 9" India Blond mics at .018"
  • a harness needle mics at .055"
  • an 8cord waxed Teklon inseaming thread mics at .060", roughly compressible to .045" +/-
  • the inseaming/sewing awl I'm using mics out at .085" wide and .050" thick at the bottom of the curve and .095" in diameter at 1" from the tip. Two strands of compressed Teklon, at .90" together, fill the hole.
Now for photos...

Here is a photo of the taw next to a black boar's bristle. and a piece of 25# mono, split
DSCF2514 (640 x 480).jpg
Here is a photo of the nylon bristle wrapped and counter-wrapped and waxed (some of the bulkiness of the wrap is wax which evens out with use...in fact you can see a wayward crumb of beeswax clinging to the wraps)
DSCF2516 (640 x 480).jpg
And finally, here is a photo of how I hold the the threads when I'm inseaming. Doing it this way allows me to use my thumb and fingers to pull on the rest of the thread without mixing those loops in with the taw/bristle. I do both hands that way and on the right hand the taw/bristle runs alongside of the awl handle.
DSCF2507 (640 x 480).jpg
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#420 Post by dw »

lancepryor wrote:DW:

I really would love to see an in-focus shot of your wrapped split bristle, if you ever succeed in getting one! One question, because I've had less success than you. When you counter-wrap with the second leg, how tightly do you wrap it -- does the leg get wrapped so the mono is touching the previous 'wrap' (as is the case with the actual thread for the first inch or two), or it more loosely wrapped?
Thanks,
Lance
The trick to all this is to slip the tip into the crotch of the split bristle so that you have about 1/2 inch hanging beyond. Then wrap one leg, then both, then the same one leg again, then both...etc. until you have about a quarter inch of very tightly wound and tightly "stacked" wraps. Or until you just barely start to get into the next increment of thickness in the taw.

Then wrap the leg that you been wrapping the taw around...wrap that around the taw, spacing the wraps about 1/8" apart. Secure by threading the leg into the full thickness of the thread. Then counter-wrap the other leg...about the same spacing and secure it in the full thread. Burnish the wraps away from the bristle and pull the legs of the split bristle taut. This contributes to some of the "kinking" in the photos above but prevents knots and/or looseness that can bunch up.

Wax thoroughly with beeswax.

The legs of the nylon bristle can be sanded with fine sandpaper and waxed in preparation.

Done this way the chances of the taw, and the tight wraps in the first quarter inch or so, slipping are greatly reduced both because each time you wrap the leg and then both you lock the previous wrap down. Because the taper is so fine and the wraps protected by the counter-wrapped leg, breakage is also minimized.

I'm not saying that slippage or breakage won't happen but most of the time it is operator error. DAMHIKT. :tinfoil:
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#421 Post by kemosabi »

This baby birdie will open his mouth and beg your indulgence:

Why such long bristles?

Thx.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#422 Post by dw »

kemosabi wrote:This baby birdie will open his mouth and beg your indulgence:

Why such long bristles?

Thx.
The short answer is "because I can".

The longer answer is that I have at least 3-4" of taper. I want all of that embedded and protected within the wrap and counter-wrap of the legs.

I need roughly 2 more inches to pierce the full thickness of the thread in several places and be an "air anchor" for the "legs".

And I like about my palm's width of bristle to grasp as I'm pulling the bristles through the holdfast. I fold the bristle over my index finger to get a solid grip on it...much the same way the taw is folded over my finger in the above photo although that's just to keep the bristle out of the way.

Any way you look at it it comes out to 9"+. Length might be an issue with natural boar's bristles but it isn't an issue at all with nylon monofilament.

So...like I said at the beginning..."just because I can." No harm,no foul.
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#423 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

Thanks for the detailed description and the pictures. I'm sure they will be very helpful for folks who want to give this a try. I think what I've done in the past is pretty much as you've described, but I'll have to try it again sometime to see if I can have better results.

Two questions: what do you do with that 1/2" of thread you stick through the legs of the bristle? Do you trim it back, counter-wrap it after doing the main wrapping, or what? Also, when starting, do you do one wrap over the single leg, one wrap over both (etc.), or do you do say 2 then 2 (or 3 then 3, etc)? I think I've generally tried 2 then 2 or even 3 then 3, so perhaps that's where I've fallen down. (Or perhaps it's my hand-wax, or my bristle preparation, or .....)

FWIW, I inseamed a shoe yesterday with some Teklon and an unsplit bristle. I had absolutely no problem with the bristle coming off, and, honestly, I can't really recall losing a bristle while inseaming for quite some time now. Given the smaller diameter of the 8-cord Teklon vs. the linen threads I normally make up, I may have to revisit the size of inseaming awl I use. Obviously, a larger hole relative to the bristle/thread makes it less likely to lose the bristle, but at the expense of providing a place for water and/or dirt to get through. When I spent a day w/ Jim McCormick, I brought some of my awls for comparison to his. He said my inseaming awl was too small -- too small an awl causes the wax to get stripped of the cord too quickly. I should think this is less of an issue with Teklon, since the wax is less critical.

On a related topic, I gave a presentation on inseaming recently as a guest lecturer at RISD (thanks Marika). I was using linen thread, and I snapped the cord (hence my decision to give Teklon a try). I only did a few stitches, so I decided to remove the welt and stitches and start over. After I cut the welt off, I could not get the stitches out of the holdfast -- those suckers were absolutely solid, and needle nose pliers or lasting pincers could not pull them out, and even trying to lever them out with a screw driver between stitches just cut the cord! I ended up just re-holing through the thread in the holdfast. Just shows the strength of an inseaming stitch made with quality handwax. I wonder if teklon can be quite as solid a stitch, aside from its greater strength. I'm still in search of a way to get an old-style linen thread, with 36 inch fibers (or even hemp, with 8 - 12 foot fibers)!

You mention that you have perhaps a 4 inch distance from taw to full thickness of the cord. I generally have more like 8 inches, give or take. I like to have about 1 inch of stagger between each thread (maybe even a bit more for the first one or two staggers), so with a 9 cord linen that makes 8 staggers, hence 8 inches. Perhaps this longer transition makes a more gradual taper that is easier to pull through the holes without catching/binding? Of course, the 8 inch taper requires a longer bristle; in my case, I cut the bristle 16 inches long, with 6 inches beyond the taw and 10 or so for the wrap and insertion through the cord. That's one of the benefits of nylon -- unlimited length available!

For outseaming, I use 4 cord, so only have a 3 inch taper. With the bristles I have being 7 inches long, that is ample, as I only keep 2 - 2 1/2 inches of unwrapped bristle past the taw.

Next time you do some round closing, try the boar's bristle again. I think you'll find it superior to the nylon. The greater stiffness really helps when you are trying to find the hole on the edge of the leather. The folks at Edward Green still use boar's bristle for this application. Given the volume of closing they do for models like the Dover, I imagine they've tried nylon and found the boar's bristle superior.

Thanks again for your effort with the pics and the description.

Lance
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#424 Post by dw »

lancepryor wrote:DW:

Thanks for the detailed description and the pictures. I'm sure they will be very helpful for folks who want to give this a try. I think what I've done in the past is pretty much as you've described, but I'll have to try it again sometime to see if I can have better results.

Two questions: what do you do with that 1/2" of thread you stick through the legs of the bristle? Do you trim it back, counter-wrap it after doing the main wrapping, or what?
I just let it hang. It generally folds back over the wraps and never presents a problem.
Also, when starting, do you do one wrap over the single leg, one wrap over both (etc.), or do you do say 2 then 2 (or 3 then 3, etc)? I think I've generally tried 2 then 2 or even 3 then 3, so perhaps that's where I've fallen down. (Or perhaps it's my hand-wax, or my bristle preparation, or .....)
One wrap around single leg. Then one wrap around both. Then one wrap around the self-same, original leg, then one around both. Repeat until ready to wrap leg.
When I spent a day w/ Jim McCormick, I brought some of my awls for comparison to his. He said my inseaming awl was too small -- too small an awl causes the wax to get stripped of the cord too quickly. I should think this is less of an issue with Teklon, since the wax is less critical.
Well, that's contrary to what I was taught...and experience. And I don't care how large your awl is, some wax is going to strip off, if there is any...even incidental...contact with the leather. I learned using linen, too. Good hand wax heats up and seals the hole. And if you're using linen the traditional expectation was that you would re-wax the inseaming thread every so often. Pays to have a ball of hand wax on your bench and handy.

One of the reasons you had so much trouble getting the stitches out is that, as it gets hot, the wax penetrates the fibers of the leather. That's good. Not so good is the issue of breaking the stitches when trying to remove them. Why? Because it illustrates a problem that I've seen so many times, it eventually drove me to look for an alternative...ie. Teklon.

Especially on boots or shoes that are worn hard, and especially if the wax is somewhat superficial (doesn't penetrate and permeate every fiber of the linen yarn) the wax itself becomes somewhat fugitive (as Mac suggested) and then the linen thread will rot. It's organic. The interior environment of a shoe or boot is a jungle--there are lots of beasties that make their living eating dead skin and other available foodstuffs.

I made a pair of boots for a farrier some years ago. He worked really hard in 'dirty' conditions--amidst barnyard acids--and he also perspired hard. At the time, I was making ten cord linen threads by waxing three cords, three more, a final four and then twisting and burnishing them all together...and this was Irish linen. After about six months he came in complaining that the welt was coming undone. Sure enough you could just pull on the welt and the inseam stitches would pop. I rewelted the boots but even though the stitches had popped easily, I couldn't hardly get them out of the holdfast. Some I had to re-hole...just as you describe.

Use a heavy, round awl to remove those stubborn stitches...I have one that is about 5/16" in diameter. It's a saddlemaker's tool. No square edges.

You should be aware that even with the best of wax, Teklon will never hold it reliably. It doesn't strip off, so much as move around and it never penetrates the fibers like wax on linen will. Also Teklon stretches...not like nylon does...but some, nevertheless. A lock every stitch can ameliorate that but I rely on a really tacky hand wax and I often re-tighten the previous stitch before cinching down the one I'm working on.

Of course, the major redeeming aspects of Teklon is its strength and the fact that it will never rot. I've broken good 10 cord Irish linen threads meownself...never have done with Teklon.
You mention that you have perhaps a 4 inch distance from taw to full thickness of the cord. I generally have more like 8 inches, give or take. I like to have about 1 inch of stagger between each thread (maybe even a bit more for the first one or two staggers), so with a 9 cord linen that makes 8 staggers, hence 8 inches.


I have an inch and a half "leader" (tip) and then I stagger each successive cord about half inch but each end that is staggered is, of course, tapered for about an inch. When I was using linen I would skein off the linen and taper it in hand. I always ended up with a similar configuration.
Next time you do some round closing, try the boar's bristle again. I think you'll find it superior to the nylon. The greater stiffness really helps when you are trying to find the hole on the edge of the leather. The folks at Edward Green still use boar's bristle for this application. Given the volume of closing they do for models like the Dover, I imagine they've tried nylon and found the boar's bristle superior.
I will, but I'm using two cord Teklon for closing and a tiny sewing awl--probably less than a millimeter in diameter and about inch and a half long. I don't know that I have a boar's bristle that is fine enough to do any good with that small a hole.

PS..on edit...here's a photo of two bristles after having inseamed a whole boot. It illustrates (somewhat) how the wraps smooth and even out with use. They looked like this after four stitches. The initial wraps on the lower bristle are bent...it's not a bulge in the wraps. (click on the photo to get a larger look)
DSCF2518.JPG
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Re: Bristling at the very suggestion

#425 Post by dw »

I might add, regarding wrapping and counterwrapping, that I got onto this technique after reading a description of mounting bristles that stated if you twisted one leg of a bristle (they were talking about boar's bristles) along with the taw, and then counter-twisted the other leg, you could hold the two legs and the taw at the split end and the bristle and taw would twist itself up just the way rope is twisted. Very fast, very easy, and very secure...according to the source.

I never could master the technique of twisting the legs of the bristle...not with boar's bristles, and especially not with split nylon bristles (which end up half-round shaped). I guess my fingers are just too thick. But fiddling around with it and very slowly and clumsily twisting the off leg one turn at a time, I could see that the technique would work admirably.

So I learned to do it the hard way. :greatnotion:
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