Bootmaking books?

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dw
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#26 Post by dw »

Oh, btw...

How long does copyright last for goodness sake? A full hundred years?

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#27 Post by tomo »

DW, Marc,
I'm sure copyright on printed material is Fifty - 50 years.
I'll ask round here. I know a few people that are involved in writing /publishing etc.

Woman's dorm eh? Eyeholes and walkways too; what sort of glue you using nowadays DW? Do you know why they print "use with adequate ventilation" on the side of the can?Image

More power to y'awl.
T.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#28 Post by tomo »

DW, Marc,
David Kilgour could quite possibly know, he's into printing and stuff like that.

I'll ask him.

'Are you there Boyo...?"

He's most likely out stomping around the high country in his MkII shepherds boots. They've had some good snow down his way lately.

Another thought. I don't think it's considered plagiarism by virtue of the fact that you're not taking credit for the work, ie claiming it as your own, and it's being used for acedemic purposes (HCC). Also, no money's changed hands.

More power to y'awl.

T.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#29 Post by marc »

Ok, buckle up - this gets a little rough...

Copyright laws have changed in the past few years, some quite drastically. Now I'm not a copyright lawyer, but based on the classes on this I've had to take for my day to day job (Interlibrary Loan Librarian), what we started with in the US in 1909 was a copyright of 28 years. This later could be extended another 28 years, or 47 years for a total of 56 years or 67 years. It is likely that Leno came into the public domain at this time, and in the US at least, something in the Public Domain can not be removed (this is NOT true in other countries, such as Britain, which has in the past removed things from the public domain).

In 1976, the law was changed to "life of the author plus 50 years" for works published after 1 Jan 1978. In 1998 we got the Sonny Bono Term Extenstion Act, which changed that to "life of the Author plus 70 years" - and brought us into compliance with the Berne Convention which governs international copyright. If the work is of corporate authorship (for intance the Coloquy CD), Anonymous works, and works under a pseudonym it's 95 years from the date of publication, or 120 years from the date of creation whichever comes first).

That being said, if an item was published in the US before 1923 it's in the public domain. If it was published between 1923 and 1963, it was likely either under copyright for 28 years (if it includes a copyright notice), or if renewed, up to 67 years (meaning some items may still be under copyright from this period). [In Europe this date was 1900 the last I checked, a number years ago, and slowly catching up to the US 1923, and is scheduled to catch up to the US date -I think- around 2017, at which point the European and US dates will then start moving forward again.]

Those things published from 1964-1977 - 28 years if published with a copyright notice) with an automatic renewal to 67 years [meaning an item published in 1977 wouldn't be in the public domain until 2044].

Created before 1 Jan 1978, but not published (meaning all unpublished manuscripts) have a copyright of life+70, or 31 Dec 2002, whichever is greater - meaning that all those medieval manuscripts, colonial private paper collections, etc. are technically in the public domain. Unless...

Created before 1 Jan 1978, but published between then and 31 December 2002, these pass into PD at life +70, or 31 Dec 2047, whichever is greater.

Since 1989, thanks to the Berne Convention, copyright notices are no longer required - anything you write is automatically under copyright to you, whether you pay your bucks to the government or not. For instance, this email message is copyrighted to me, whether I say so or not, and if I died today would not become public domain until 2074.

This means of course that when the Colloquy CD becomes public domain in 2095 or so, many of the messages on it may not be, if the authors were still alive after, say, 2025 - while other messages may have been in the public domain for 20 years.

I should note that copyright on images is different, and copyright for music is like a totally different planet.

So, for those of you who have made it this far Image Leno should be in the clear.

Marc
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#30 Post by tomo »

Morning Marc,
thats pretty sobering stuff.
Does the copyright extend with later editions, or is the copyright taken from the publication of the first edition?
Also, what if the work is used as in our forum (HCC)?

More power to y'awl.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#31 Post by dai »

Tom, its cold here for sure, am typing with gloves on. The Project Gutenberg puts books online, thousands of them, and they provide an American copyright FAQ which is quite well laid out at http://www.gutenberg.org/howto/copyright-howto
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#32 Post by marc »

Tom,
My understanding is that later editions, if they are true new editions (i.e. information is changed) would have their own copyright date, although this -might- extend the copyright on an earlier version (there is a 'recent' revision of Joyce's Ulysses that seems to want to do this very thing by "correcting" the original text). Note that the "life +70" gets around this since it focuses on the death date of the individual, not the publication date.

You will have noticed that the Leno DW has says "5th impression". This is not a new edition, but rather a later printing. It's using the same plates as the first printing.

It's really messy dealing with 20th century books.

Marc
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#33 Post by frank_jones »

All

Like others I was delighted to be able to download the copy of Golding Volume VI, courtesy of many hours of hard work by our administrator. However I have a confession, the same book is already on my shelf. Or I thought it was.

When I was looking at the on-line version, I was interested to note that book was published in 1935 by New Era Publishing Co. Ltd. This sparked a question in my head. On checking, I found the book I have was also published in 1935 but by Sir Issac Pitman and Sons Ltd.

This made me look at both publications and compare them closely. I cannot claim to have checked every single paragraph but with the exception of line endings being different, both books (and all the illustrations) seem to be exactly the same - word for word, page numbers, figure numbers, everything, with the exceptions listed here.

There are several minor differences in my book from the on-line version.

1. On the title page, besides the bottom credit mentioned in paragraph two above, there is the Pitman logo (I P & S intertwined inside an ellipse) between the CORWAINERS’ TECHNICAL COLLEGE, LONDON and the VOLUME VI

2. On the page before the Contents, on-line it says PRINTED IN GREAT BRITAIN AT THE PITMAN PRESS, BATH. My books says, SIR ISSAC PITMAN & SONS LTD. and then goes on to list addresses in London, Bath, Melbourne, New York and Toronto.

My book is hard-bound covered with dark green linen type cloth and the cover “boards” measure five inches by seven and a half inches. I have no way of checking this against the on-line one.

Now the question is why are there two publishers both putting out virtually identical sets of eight books in 1935? I am of course extrapolating that the other seven are the same.

Can other readers look at their Golding books and see what is on the initial pages? Do any of our historical contributors have any comment?

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#34 Post by das »

Frank,

I haven't done a line-by-line cross-check of the magnificent Golding version DW made for us. I'm so unfamiliar with the technology myself, I assume it's like photocopying--it only copies what's there? If the first and last line on a page, or the pagination doesn't match exactly, that could be a problem for researchers citing a particular item, but then they'd probably cite the on-line version anyhoo I'd guess. My vol. VI is New Era, no date, published at the Pitman Press, Bath mine says. Other volumes are all Sir Isaac Pitman, 1935. Like yours, nice green cloth bindings with heavy gilt embossed spines.

Yours is probably a question for our librarian [Marc?]. I seem to recall that Golding's 8 vol. set: 'Boots and Shoes Their Making, Manufacture, and Selling' was first published in around 1898[?]--the first edition. Then re-issued in subsequent editions [dates?]. Whether there were changes, additions, etc., 1898[?] to 1935, I have no idea.

Northampton Central Reference Library catalogue has it dated "1934-1935". Northampton Central Museum catalogues it as: 'The Manufacture of Boots and Shoes' as "London, 1902; 1934 in 8 vols."

Heck, I'm trying to find the original 1865 edition of Leno Image

I'll be happy for somebody else to hunt the first edition of Golding. As to why different publishers in the same year(s), you've got one on me. Sorry.

Oh, and follow me over to Patterns, do I have a question for you.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#35 Post by dw »

Frank,

Good to hear from you!

I'm not sure why there would be two versions. Maybe Marc or Al would know. I'm guessing that one version was a "presentation" version, the other might have been intended for the Cordwainers College, etc. Does that make any sense? [It probably doesn't...I can't think of any reason that *does* make sense] Or maybe one version was intended for export? There are two versions (at least) of Salaman's book. One published in the UK and one in New York City.

My copy has the green laquered(?) linen cover that you describe with gold lettering--just as presented in the .pdf version. the cover boards are 4 3/4"x7 1/4"...so it's a mite smaller. If I'm reading you correctly, your version has the same amount of pages and all the text on the same pages as the pdf version? So may be the font is a little bigger or something. Otherwise how could the larger version be formatted the same as the smaller?

It's curious.

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#36 Post by dw »

Al,

I was very careful to keep the text, that was on a particular page in the original, on that same page in the pdf--just for the reasons you cite, Al. It's part of the problem/process of "digitalizing" the book. Every page has to have the kerning/formatting, etc. adjusted...simply because my computer, at least, doesn't have the same fonts/typeface (although it appears and I assume that something like Times, Time New Roman, or Century Schoolbook was used) nor do I or the process have any knowledge of how the original text was typeset. Both of those factors contribute to the distance between each individual letter, the distance between words, the distance between lines and the distance, top and bottom between paragraphs. It's touchy.

In any case, I was (probably unwarrantedly) proud of having gotten the text to paginate as close as I did.


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Re: Bootmaking books?

#37 Post by dai »

Frank

Good to hear from you. My copy of Golding Volume VI is dated 1935, publishers are "Sir Issac Pitman & Sons, Ltd." and has the features you describe for your copy.

While I am on the topic, I was searching for "peg rasp" on Google search engine, which responded with just 6 hits, one of them from DWIIs digitisation of Golding as follows:

"[PDF] BOOTS AND SHOES
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Page 1. Page 2. Page 3. Page 4. COMPILERS NOTES The following is a faithful
digitalization of volume VI of FY Golding’s BOOTS AND SHOES. ...
www.thehcc.org/Golding_VI.pdf - Similar pages"

That shows one further advantage of full digitisation, and all the hard work that goes into it compared with just scanning and putting a graphic facsimile online (a picture of the page). The pdf file made using DWs approach is fully searchable by engines online, and is sure to bring us more visitors.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#38 Post by dai »

Al
Does a 1889 3rd edition facsimile Leno bring you any closer to the edition you want from those you have access to?
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#39 Post by frank_jones »

Al

There are several points to cover.

1. I quoted the date of the New Era version (on-line) as 1935. This was taken from page 4 of the pdf file alongside the “signature” of J. Ball at the end of the Preface. Page 4 of my Pitman book also has “1935” in exactly the same place.

2. I have never heard of or seen “'Boots and Shoes Their Making, Manufacture, and Selling” other than the 1935 version (or should that be versions). There was an earlier two volume set of books by Golding entitled “The Manufacture of Boots and Shoes”. This was dated 1902 and was published by Chapman &Hall Ltd. I only have the first volume but it appears that both books were entirely written by Golding himself. Interestingly Sabbage quotes from this work extensively in his preface on page 183 of Volume IV of Golding 1935 (my Pitman version). Sabbage specifically gives a quote from ‘The Manufacture of Boots and Shoes’ ends the quote by saying “So wrote Mr. F. Y. Golding over thirty years ago”.

3. Could it be that Northampton Central Reference Library catalogue has mixed up these two works because they have similar (but not the same) titles and they are both credited to Golding?

4. You mention (with a query) a Golding publication of around 1898 which was perhaps re-issued in later editions. Have you seen a copy or do you know an organisation or person who has a copy.

5. I note that you mention that your Volume VI is New Era but the others are all Pitman. I would be interested in whether you obtained them all from the same source at the same time. Also, the scan of the front cover in the on-line pdf shows the “VOLUME VI” adjacent to the title. On my Pitman copy the “VOLUME VI” is about one inch away from the title as do all of my Pitman books. How do the front covers of your set compare?

Talk about forensic work. The plot thickens!

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#40 Post by frank_jones »

DW

Like you I cannot understand why two virtually identical eight volume sets of books should be produced by two different publishers in 1935.

To clarify your other point, comparing the line breaks between your pdf and my Pitman, there are minor differences. I put this down to the references you made in the Complier’s Notes and other postings above, regarding the process of OCR and differences in the kerning, typeface, etc. I have not carefully checked every single page, but the pagination in your pdf seems to be exactly the same as my Pitman.

Wherever I have noticed significant differences in line endings (perhaps six or seven examples mostly on the last page of a chapter) I have carefully read the text of the pdf and my book. So far I have not found a single difference, not even a typo.

It would be good to have the same book from each publisher physically alongside each other. Perhaps that could be done in Delavan at the AGM? Any offers amongst the lurkers out there.

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#41 Post by marc »

Curiously, in yon olden days, it was not uncommon for different publishers to put out the same book (for example, I know of at least three different publishers for Oliver Baker's 1921 Black jacks and leather bottells). I believe this is more often a feature of the pre-WWII British publishing industry. There is a reason for this, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is Image

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#42 Post by das »

Frank,

I was not aware the 1902 Golding work was something different--is it any good? I'd like to see one someday. Can you tell us what the contents pages say? Illustrations?

You'd have to ask NCL about any mix-up there.

The 1898[?] Golding was cited in something--if not Plucknett or Swaysland, something similar I recall. Bordoli?

My vol. VI is a mis-matched single, borowed from another set--that volume is often found "missing" so it seems.

Sounds like you've already done the hard line-by-line double-check of on-line Golding. Many thanks.
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#43 Post by dw »

This is particularly appropriate for this topic as it addresses both the Golding work and the issue of dates of publication, but it also has relevance for the conversation going on over in "One Last Question". In any case this is a quote from Section VIII of Goldings Volume IV, being the "Fitting up of Lasts" by George Sabbage:
"A well-fitted last should conform to the contour of the sole of the foot, and reproduce artistically the fundamental protuberances and hollows, and where prominent the ridge on the inside of the last should be gracefully continued to the toe, and the toes of the last should be thick enough in the right place to allow of the placing of the toes of the foot in the proper position. Lumps and dents should find no place in a well-fitted last; everything should be gracefully rounded and correctly positioned.

"An ideal shaped last should be of the right shape adaptable to the purpose of the particular boot to be made therefrom, and made snug enough to confine the foot without any uneasy experience to the wearer. It should allow of an easy entrance to be made to the boot. . . . No injurious pressure should be in the boot made from the last, and no wrinkles of loose leather at any part. It should be graceful and easy, and combine a skill and knowledge that is obtained by a long, studious experience." *

So wrote Mr. F. Y. Golding over thirty years ago, and no better inspiration to the student could be offered. Again, "the fitting up of lasts requires much care and knowledge, if a good fitting shoe is required."

Last fitting consists of the successful application of properly prepared fittings to the lasts that have been carefully selected for the purpose. The last must not only be true in measurement, but also in the shape suitable for the foot, that is, the "draft" or border outline of the foot and last must agree. Form is really the great secret of comfort; and that we have discovered only after scores of years of practical experience.

GEORGE SABBAGE.

* The Manufacture of Boots and Shoes


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Re: Bootmaking books?

#44 Post by frank_jones »

Al

Apologies for not replying sooner to your posting July 25. It raises several questions regarding the earlier two volume “The Manufacture of Boots and Shoes” by Golding dated 1902.

1. I find it hard to make a objective judgement about how good it is. I first saw it about ten years ago when Volume 1 was given to me by somebody who was clearing out “grandad’s” attic and felt I might give it a good home. This means that I came to the book as a mature, time served old shoe dog who is hardly the target audience the book was aimed at. In my opinion what is covered is perfectly adequate but not as in-depth as the 1935 work. This is not surprising as the later eight volume Golding had the benefit of all those extra years working at Cordwainer’s Technical College to call on as well as the input from the many authors on the 1935 work, who each had specialist knowledge and experience they could bring to bear.

2. The contents list is quite detailed and perhaps a complete copy would be inappropriate here. The main headings are :-
Chapter 1, pages 1 to 34 - The construction and composition of the foot.
Chapter 2, pages 35 to 52 - Characteristics, contours, types of feet, etc.
Chapter 3, pages 53 to 80 - Measuring the foot, drafts, impressions, apparatus and measurements
Chapter 4, pages 81 to 118 - Sole shapes, last sections, last making and last fitting
Chapter 5, pages 119 to 203 - Upper pattern making and grading
Chapter 6, pages 204 to 242 - Clicking or cutting upper leathers
Chapter 4, pages 243 to 288 - Upper fitting and machining or closing
Index, pages 289 to 294

3. Illustrations. These are good and there are 222 in total including many of various machines.

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#45 Post by das »

Frank,

Thanks for that run-down on Golding's "other" book. Is it significantly different from the information he presents in the 1935?
PAUL B. WINTHROP

Re: Bootmaking books?

#46 Post by PAUL B. WINTHROP »

TO ALL
I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING A WEB SITE OR A LISTING CROSBY LOCKWOOD AND SONS. IF I REMEMBER ALL I DID WAS TYPE IN THEIR NAME AND UP CAME A LOT OF LISTINGS WITH CROSBY LOCKWOOD AND SONS. IF THEY ARE STILL IN BUSINESS IT STANDS TO REASON THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO CLEAR UP THE COPYRIGHT ISSUE. IF A BOOK IS PUBLISHED IN A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES WOULD NOT THE COPYRIGHT LAWS OF THOSE COUNTRIES BE IN FORCE?
MY THANKS TO D.W. FOR HIS NEVER ENDING PURSUIT OF MATERIAL RELATED TO THE BOOTMAKERS' TRADE. MAYBE CONGRESS WILL HONOR HIM WITH A STAMP.
erickgeer

Re: Bootmaking books?

#47 Post by erickgeer »

A question on books:
If one had to choose between the Bordoli: The Boot and Shoemaker, and the Leno: Art of Boot and Shoemaking, which one would be more useful? I don't get to see them and read the contents.
Do either of them have a useful section on lastmaking (as a bonus)?


Thank you,
Erick

(Message edited by erickgeer on January 18, 2005)
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#48 Post by dw »

Erick,

I have both. And if you want my advice...choose the Golding! Image Seriously, while Leno is much prized by the "historians," it is a bit more "archaic," in my opinion, than the Bordoli and there is only the one small volume versus Bordoli's four.

That's my two cents for the kitty...

I am almost ready to post volume IV of Golding's eight volume set. I have it done, but because of the nature and quantity of the illustrations, this volume will be almost four times larger (filesize-wise) that the first volume. That means it will be a longer download...especially for those on dial-up. I think I will also do Volume I (which has a section on lastmaking) and let it go at that. Someone will have to take up the task if the remaining volumes are to be digitalized.

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Re: Bootmaking books?

#49 Post by erickgeer »

DW,
Thank you for the advice on the books, I do periodic searches for Golding volumes, but they come up very rarely. I did find someone selling volume V. Without seeing what is in the books first hand it is hard to say which ones are useful.

If someone was interested, I do have a scanner, but I don't have OCR software, I could do some scanning.

Erick
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Re: Bootmaking books?

#50 Post by danfreeman »

Bordoli, I agree, is more useful & up-to-date than Leno. Leno has some great stuff on Wellingtons, and was the last and latest of the writers who fully knew the handmade era, though. Later than both is John Thornton, whose Textbook of Footwear Manufacture has been quite instructive to me.
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