Outsoles

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dearbone
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Re: Outsoles

#401 Post by dearbone » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:54 am

Brendan,

It's good to hear from you,I hope all is well and the weather is warmer in Saskatchewan by now, to be frank i am relieved those cycling shoes are done,they were ordered more than two years ago, I will receive feed back of their performance,fun to make for the first time,but it takes the romance out of shoe making,i don't know about official supplier to "Tour De France", but the Canadian National Cycling Team will be a good start.
Happy Canada Day to you and other Canadian Members here.

Best regards.
Nasser

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Re: Outsoles

#402 Post by erickgeer » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:14 am

Nasser,

Your cycling shoes came out really nice. I think your choice to make leather cleats is interesting.

I'd love to hear how they perform after significant use.

Cheers,

Erick

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Re: Outsoles

#403 Post by dearbone » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:58 am

Erick, thanks to you and all who helped me with their advice,cautions,tips and pictures,in building these shoes.
The leather cleats idea came on last minutes,probably from my soccer years,but i think it makes them easier to replace when worn.

Nasser

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Re: Outsoles

#404 Post by romango » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:27 pm

Something that has plagued me since I first started hand stitching outsoles is how my stitches always come out looking like a drunken sailor. I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

Before:
9953.jpg


after:
9952.jpg
9952.jpg (53.49 KiB) Viewed 520 times


but I'm not going to tell you...Just kidding. Image

I was not making my awl holes large enough. When I would pull the thread through the too tight holes, the thread would twist and curl as the normal twist of the thread got pushed higher up the thread. You can see this quite clearly in the before picture how twisted each stitch looks. It is easier to see in this photo than with the naked eye.

This caused me to have to pull the stitches tighter to get the little knots out that would form, which just made things worse.

With the slightly wider holes, the thread pulls through without twisting significantly. and I can snug up each stitch just enough.

My holes aren't so much bigger that the thread is super loose but they are just right to make the pulling of thread without the twist.

Now I just have to decide if I'm going to pull out the twisted stitches and make it right. (probably).

Does this conform to other peoples experience or understanding?

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Re: Outsoles

#405 Post by dw » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:07 am

Rick,

I've never seen that...and I don't take any precautions with regard to how wide the hole is.

I do feel that you have to control the threads, top and bottom, so that they are always pulled down in the same way...ie. with the weltside thread forward and under/inside the stitch and the soleside thread being pulled back and outside the stitch.

Also, I have it on good authority that the top (weltside) stitches should not be pulled down too tight. In that regard, I find that if I pull hard on the weltside thread...almost exclusively...it will tighten the soleside stitch very tight and that tightening will spread to the previous weltside stitch just enough to tighten it down snug without making it too tight.

What are you using for thread there?

That said, I am far from being an expert handstitching the outsole. I, too, would welcome other POV's on this process.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Outsoles

#406 Post by romango » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:34 am

I'm using #8 hand thread from Maine Thread. http://www.mainethread.com/Improved_Waxed_Cord.html.

I will hazard a guess that if you have not experienced the curling and knotting problem, you are probably making your holes big enough that it doesn't occur. I don't think it has anything to do with the particular thread (I've used several different types). Although the thickness of the thread is certainly a factor in how big the holes need to be.

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Re: Outsoles

#407 Post by dearbone » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:18 am

Rick,

I relate to you few tips my teacher said to me in regards to sole stitching,although it was a different welt,but the concept is the same,some i kept and some were too hard to get used to,but one thing he kept insisting on was "not to drop the needles until the stitch is finished all around the shoe/boot", to pull the thread, he twist one side around the neck of the awl and the other side around his hand-leather and than he pulls the thread without dropping the needles.
The other thing he said was "not to move (stop and go again) until the stitch is finished".
There is of course a relation between thread thickness and the size of the awl,i added one strand of thread on my last shoe and noticed i needed a bigger awl. some times other factors can spoil the stitch.
BTW, if you are used to stitch with needles dropped,than you need to slow down to look at the thread before you lock the stitch.

Nasser

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Re: Outsoles

#408 Post by dw » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:05 am

Rick,

With the Maine Thread (I thought that's what it was) I think four strands is heavy enough for outsole work. Someone else will chime in here, hopefully but I recall reading or hearing that outsole threads should be a lot lighter in weight than insole threads. I seem to recall 4-5 strands of #10 linen yarn was the standard.

Of course it may also be dependent on how many stitches per inch you are going for. At ten stitches to the inch three strands of Teklon looks a little bit too fine...but only a little bit. I think 4 is just about right.

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Re: Outsoles

#409 Post by lancepryor » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:10 am

DW:

Yes, 4 strands of #10 linen hand thread is standard thickness for London bespoke work, unless a very thick sole is being used, when I guess 5 or even 6 might be used.

Lance

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Re: Outsoles

#410 Post by dw » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:36 pm

I am getting close to finishing my first pair of chukkas. They are not as easy as they look. I got some wrinkles in the quarters while inseaming and welt stitching. I don't know how I can get rid of them. Treeing doesn't seem to be an option.

Never mind...I wanted to hand stitch the outsoles again...just for the practice if nothing else. So here are two photos (not good photos and not final form but...) of a solid eleven stitches per inch:

First photo looks terrible because I haven't dyed the welt yet. I wanted to use black thread but I wanted to see what I was doing as this isn't something I do regularly enough to have a second-nature feel for it.
10103.jpg



Second photo is same shot with the welt dyed. This was a terrible photo (focus ended up on the toe rather than the welt) but I think you can see the results.
10102.jpg


Once I got a rhythm going I could stitch an inch in about seven minutes at 11spi. I did beveled and fiddleback waist and in the waist the stitches are more like 4 or 5 to the inch.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on September 17, 2009)

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Re: Outsoles

#411 Post by courtney » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:19 pm

Rick, I had lots of problems with twisting thread both inseaming and outseaming.

I have never done either before but have hand sewn my uppers and other leather with linen thread and never noticed much twisting.

I used teklon or something this time and every stitch would twist like crazy even when I felt the holes were pretty wide.

I could sew pretty fast on the uppers but the twisting on the soles was very frustrating.

Could it be the teklon as oppossed to linen?

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Re: Outsoles

#412 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:12 am

On another forum it was talk about stitching soles by machine and that it could be a problem cutting to deep into the sole which would make it difficult to stay away from stitching through the channel cover when using the sole stitcher.

I know that it could be a problem but there is a special presser foot which has a guide that protect the channel cover from the awl. I have been using that presser foot for years and it works very well.

I don't know if you guys know about this little helper as you can see on the photos.
10409.jpg
10409.jpg (106.69 KiB) Viewed 520 times
10408.jpg


The channel will be cut by hand the same way as when stitching by hand and the result will be the same i.e. with a smooth bottom where you hardly can see where the tread are buried.

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on November 11, 2009)

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Re: Outsoles

#413 Post by dw » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:33 am

Janne,

!!!

I've never seen such a thing! Where do you get it? Does it have a part number? Will it fit any Landis curved needle machine?

I spent nearly a week some years ago trying to invent a presserfoot that would do that. Not a lot of time but zero results too. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

I'd sure like to get a hold of one of these.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Outsoles

#414 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:01 pm

DW,
I bought the machine from my old apprentice shop and the presser foot was mounted on it. I don't know where to find it today and I didn't find a part number on it.

I am not sure if Pedersen and Landis are compatible but some parts will fit both.

As you can see the machine is set up so the last will lean against the front of the "sewing table" during the stitching. The sole edge guide is not in use. Before the stitching I put the shoe against the table front and make a mark with the presser foot which will be the center of the groove. This way you know for sure the stitches will end up in the center of the groove.

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Re: Outsoles

#415 Post by producthaus » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:37 pm

why does this sole have two layers, from a functional and aesthetic point of view? This question can be extended beyond this particular example if possible - while have two sole layers in the forepart area? For sure, you can use two layers to create a two-part coloration for style...

Are there actually three layers here? There is a very sharp transition between the second lower slab and the very bottom of the sole, which is more white.
11347.jpg


(Message edited by producthaus on June 11, 2010)

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Re: Outsoles

#416 Post by romango » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:44 pm

I think all we can do is guess at the reasoning. Could be that the thin bottom layer is a laminate over a lower quality sole.

The top layer appears to be the welt.

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Re: Outsoles

#417 Post by courtney » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:41 am

I would think its just the contrast between the flesh and the grain.

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Re: Outsoles

#418 Post by producthaus » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:49 am

right then, i need to stop thinking of welt as a complete layer.

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Re: Outsoles

#419 Post by dw » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:04 am

I suspect that the first layer is not a welt but rather a "midsole" or "through." It might almost be thought of as an external insole as the vamp and quarters are usually continuous and no real insole is used.

The outsole is cemented or perhaps Blaked/McKayed on...through both layers. Or less likely, the through is Blaked and the outsole sewn to the through as if it were a welt.

Courtney is correct, the thin "layer" is the grain surface and stands in stark contrast to the edge of the outsole because the trimmer blade was dull and the edge of the outsole is slightly burnt...or actually the sugars in the leather are caramelized.

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andre

Re: Outsoles

#420 Post by andre » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:53 am

Today I was reading Al's post regarding lot's of styles in the factories. Than I was thinking that bespoke is flexible, but always the same leather sole...Especially for the winter it certainly has it's disadvantages, or if you like to make the lighter weight shoes, so I thought here is something which could be interesting for bespoke shoemakers.
12469.jpg

12468.jpg


The second photo is waste, it just shows the layer of rubber and leather, the dark stuff is shadow.
May be somebody like's it (I'm not saying this something very new)
Andre

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Re: Outsoles

#421 Post by andre » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:58 am

This is what we call blocker's here. The rubber is injected after it will be cut to your shape, twist, length or width. Usually it's been done in a small and a big mould. Many designs are available, even heavy rubber designs for the winter.
Andre

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Re: Outsoles

#422 Post by piper » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:07 am

I have a question about some materials I found online. I found some sole sheeting called SoleTech Diamond 50-55 Durometer Crape Soling. It has a bumpy pattern on one side. I have tried to glue a more durable rubber sole sheet layer to the bumpy side using Barge cement but it really doesn't hold well. I can stick a fingernail in and pull them apart. I was just now walking in them and tripped on the stairs and the sole started peeling off. Is this material not meant as a layer between the shoe and the outer sole? Is it intended to be the outer sole? It seems a little soft to me.

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Re: Outsoles

#423 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:55 pm

Diane
Sounds like you did not sand the pebbles off or your cementing process was off.

I saw your registry notice and glad you are here.

I think you should hunt down a shoe repair or shoe/boot maker and spent a couple days getting the basics.

If you want to come to Sunny, Snowey, Saskatchewan, I will help you along. You can do some ice fishing when you need a break.

50 Durometer is soft, sort of , but don't get hung up on the numbers. It is all about the whole system of shoe construction.

This is a trade were there are no absolutes. You learn as you make mistakes as we all have.

Regards
Brendan

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Re: Outsoles

#424 Post by piper » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:26 am

I am not a professional shoemaker but I am a do-it-yourselfer and am hoping you can answer this question. I would like to resole some of my failed shoe projects and perhaps even some of my commercial shoes. How does one get the sole off? I'm talking about glued on soles, not stitched on soles, not cowboy boots or anything that fancy. The commercial shoes (sandals, actually) were specifically designed to be resoled, to have a new sole glued on. Unfortunately the sole they will put back on is terrible so I want to do it myself. My own shoes, I used barge cement and it seems to stick rather tenaciously. What's the secret to separating the sole from the rest of the shoe?

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Re: Outsoles

#425 Post by dw » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:45 am

You can buy Barge cement thinner in quart cans that have a small spout.

Get yourself a pair of shoe repair nippers and squirt a small amount of thinner in between the sole and the shoe or the sole and the midsole, whatever.

As the thinner soaks in it will soften the cement. Use the nippers to peel the sole back far enough to add a little more thinner. Peel the sole back further. Add more thinner.

Und so weiter.

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