Outsoles

[homeboy]

Just some hand-stitched outsoles, almost 8 spi, on some of my work boots. I wished I had taken some "before" pics. Once again, elephant is my favorite leather! Tough and cleans up to almost new condition. Sorry.....I didn't take the time to "tree-out" the tops. Like I said, work boots.

7240.jpg

7241.jpg

7242.jpg

[dw]

Jake,

Clean work. And a fine looking pair of boots. Tell me, in detail, how you cut the outsole channel and how you determined where and how far to cut it...please.

I just finished stitching up the soles on my semi-brogue derbys. They came out really well this time..although, as with anything, there is lots of room for improvement...nevermind all the dumb-as-a-stump mistakes.

I will post photos sometime next week I hope.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

As always, I appreciate the kind words.

As with any of us, I'm always trying to improve my work and have learned through trial and error that "special" handmade tools seems to solve some of our problems. I've always had a problem of getting real close to the vamp margin with my stitch marking tools. A stitch wheel just doesn't cut it, and I've never been able to master a fudge wheel. So, I've recently modified a George Barnsley stitch tool. I've forgotten what they really call it, but I'll post a pic sometime next week of the tool and find the correct nomenclature. It not only marks your stitches but also re-defines your stitches afterwards.

I usually let my outsoles dry before stitching because there is some shrinkage in the process. Awling your stitches also puts a certain amount of pressure on the outsole. I have found this will increase the chances of creating an "out-of-place" stitch in your stitch line. I will first trim my outsole to the desired width. I then take my modified tool to mark my stitches as close to the vamp as possible running the tool flat down the vamp. This tool makes two imprints, actually holes. Move the tool up one hole and imprint the next hole. Every once in awhile I'll take a look at the boot and make sure I'm running straight and true. After marking my awl holes, I'll take some dividers and set them accordingly to the distance from the edge of the sole to the stitch line. If I need to adjust my sole width, then I do so. Usually I don't have to adjust if I've done my trimming correctly. Make sure your sole edge is perpendicular to the sole. Turn the boot over. Take your set dividers and mark your stitch line around the sole. Wet the sole enough to cut your stitch groove. I make a vertical cut approximately 1/2 the thickness of the sole. Sew away....

Usually, depending on how far you've come around the medial ball of the boot, you'll have to angle your awl quite a bit to hit the stitch goove. I'm not using a "square" awl. I'm still using a regular sewing awl.

On the above boots, I used 6-cord "Bulldog" brand dacron to sew the outsole. Utilizing your technique to obtain a correct tapered end.

I hope I answered your question. If not, or some more questions arise, please let me know. I'm looking forward to seeing your shoes.

[das]

DW,

Reading your question, then Jake's answer, I thought I toss this ideas out too...

I teach my apprentices this trick, and use it myself when things look unusual: to begin, the sole is stuck to the welt all round (AP, paste, etc.) and the welt rubbed down hard with a bone or stick to get a good smooth surface. I then burnish "up" in the crevice to press the upper and insole feather up hard against the last, defining a sharp corner. With all that nicely smoothed, I take whatever awl I'm going to use and put it on the welt, then push it through *slowly* at its natural angle with my left thumb pushing hard against the outsole right were it's going to emerge. Before it breaks the grain, but when I feel the point coming, I stop. Go a few inches forward and do it again, and so all around the welt. I now have a handy row of "dots", barely visible, on the bottom of the outsole to connect with a line--I use my right thumbnail, the right index finger pinched to the thumb riding on the sole edge as a distance guide. This gives a line all round to cut the channel exactly where the awl will emerge, irrespective of the sole edge. Nothing's worse that stitching that wants to ride up out of the channel, unless it's snapping awls off trying to force them to emerge where they don't want to.

[homeboy]

Martha,

That's why you make the "big-bucks"! Great technique! Believe I'll give'er a try next time. Thanks!

[erickgeer]

I'd say this is far and away from traditional shoemaking.
I am looking for some suggestions on bottoming materials, and this is probably best directed towards the Orthopedic shoemakers here.

I'm making a pair of bicycling shoes to try out the athletic patterns from the Pattern Cutters handbook. I've pre-lasted the uppers and have to start thinking about bottoming them:

7513.jpg

One route I was going to take was to have a half-sole McKay-ed on and then cement either a combination leather and rubber/synthetic outsole.

I could go all lather, but this is an application where weight could be an issue.

I could use a synthetic half-midsole, with an all leather outsole.

I have lot's of choices, but the question I have is this: Is there a commonly available (from a shoe finder) soling sheet that is relatively inflexible, lightweight, and thermoformable? I'm considering ordering some knives from Euro-International, so suggestions from there if need be....

Anyone?

Erick

(Message edited by erickgeer on May 19, 2008)

[amuckart]

Erick,

Are you going to use these with cleats and clipless pedals, or with toeclips?

This is perhaps a bit out of left-field, I'm a lot more familiar with medieval than modern materials

You could play with some water-hardened veg tanned leather for the soles. It wouldn't be the lightest option, but done right it would be completely rigid and it's very easily formable while still hot and wet. It does take quite a bit of practice to get just right though, there's a fine line between hard enough and so brittle is just cracks or snaps clean.

I'm not sure you could set cleats into it without some sort of reinforcement plate backing it though.

[erickgeer]

Alasdair,

I'm not planning on using cleats for this, but I'd like to be able to- one of the guys at my bike shop has expressed interest in "dress shoes" with cleats.

I think that the cleat could be mounted to the half-midsole with matching holes in a cemented outsole would be strong enough.

I'd prefer to use relatively modern methods to stiffen soles, but without going to something like carbon. I figure there's a middle ground between the weight of leather and rigid plastic.

Thanks,

Erick

[relferink]

Erick,

Nice looking shoes, what leather did you use? Did the yellow leather come perforated?
Considering they are bicycle shoes you can only hope you don't walk in them all that much I would consider a high density SBR rubber. Most finders will carry it as mid soling, strong, firm and thermo moldable. If you don't mind the weight McKay stitch a midsole and laminate an outsole for extra stiffness. I don't think you'll need the midsole but if you want it really stiff you can slip a carbon sheet in between the mid and outsole.

Happy cycling

7515.gif

Rob

[erickgeer]

Robert,

Thanks, the yellow is a pre-perfed lamb - I usually avoid lamb like the plague, but I wanted the aeration. The vamp is lined in cotton to assist in breathing. The toecap, lace placket and counter "strap" are from a piece of harness leather scrap I think. the rest of the black is a spongy garment leather, perhaps shrunken bull? It was a full hide at 30 ft.

I'm not familiar with SBR (or at least by name). It's not unusual for me to find something "cool" and buy it without knowing it's "provenance". Is it heavy? Perhaps I could use it as a half-midsole, with cut-outs in areas that don't flex to reduce weight, McKay it on and cement a full-sole on after?

Are you talking about carbon fabric that needs a resin dip, or pre-plasticized rigid sheets that get thermoformed?

I figure I have many options but I would like to keep it fairly simple, "slightly" flexible, and avoid a situation where I would use two-part resins.

I think a trip to browse my finder is in order.

Thanks,

Erick

[relferink]

Erick,

If you check the Soletech website, www.soletech.com you will find it under rubber sheets, midsoling. I imagine other midsoling is similar but I have worked a lot with the soletech sheets and they are nice and dense. Not stiff, nor light weight but it's only 6 irons and if you laminate two they become very firm.
SBR stands for styrene-butadiene rubber and adds to the durability of items like tires.

For true stiffness and light weight you will have to consider carbon but that's a lot more involved to work with and you still need a walking surface. You can buy carbon plates ready made but for maximum strength and stiffness you have to laminate with resin, ideally in a vacuum to keep air bubbles out that will weaken the laminate.

The lamb looks nice, I stay away from it as well but can't tell it from the picture. Looking at the picture I was thinking kangaroo.

Rob

[erickgeer]

Robert,

I've been thinking a lot about kangaroo, and it would have been nice for this project, but I had to keep costs under control. I was able to buy the perforated lamb sort of locally.

I stitched through the lining to stabilize the lamb insets:

7517.jpg

I'll check out the Soletech stuff- I know my finder carries their stuff.

Erick

[fred_coencped]

Erick,Robert,JMS plastics has a 65 durometer soletech that is a SBR,EVA blend ,it is pretty lightweight but flexible.Euro brings in a product called Moritz a stiffener for heel counters and foot orthotics.It is lighter then Quickform in weight but either as a resinous sheet material is easily thermoformable.Quickform would be my choice from American Plastics and I think Acor has it too.

For the outsole Nora 4 mm Astrostar is lightweight and is available at Southern Leather in Denver.

Erick I am curious of the flexibility /non flexibility requirement of the forefoot bicycle footgear with or without a cleat.I will visit the local shops in Santa Fe as I am interested in the requirements for building such a shoe,as I think the foot must be in a supinated position for inline activities to enable the legs muscular forces to transmit energy through the foot as a rigid foot structure as opposed to allowing a loose joint structure as allowing the foot any pronotory motion.

Anyway Erick good luck with your project.I recently made a pair of bike-thotics for "spinning" on the stationary bike in the gym for a client.

That bottom black grainey leather sure looks like Bison to me.

What did you use as the insole?I like the McKay idea for the full insole/midsoling catching the reinforcement Quickfom but also the addition of a mock welt with enough width to get Mckay stitched with the upper.I have also added with glue a 12 iron "skirt" from the feather line about 1/4" above and then added the midsole and sole to make the outsole more substantial and waterproof too.
Hope this gives you more food for thought.OK,Fred

[erickgeer]

Fred,

I still have to digest your post, but the principle, as I understand it, is to use a stiff sole so the transfer of power from the leg muscles is greater. Looking at existing bike shoes, the last would have a lot of toe spring, and almost a negative heel appearance. If I'm off on this, I would be happy for further info. The last I'm using has higher toespring than common, but no particular shaping in the backpart.

The shoes I'm working on would be best described as "touring" shoes- not totally rigid, so they would not be abysmal off the bike.

BTW, I'm using a fiberboard insole to save weight- I normally only use a leather insoles.

[tjburr]

I mentioned awhile ago that I am now the proud owner of a Junker SD-28. Now this brought up a question about sewing the sole that I never considered until having a machine to do the stitching.

At the start point and end point of the stitching how are the ends tied off, finished, or however so they are held in place?

I went searching for any description of this and did not have much luck.

Also Happy New Year to everyone. While raising a dram of my favorite (or several drams) I included all those other boot/shoe makers out there in wishing for a successful year!

Terry

[dw]

Terry,

I generally try to drop my stitches into the channel that the channel knife on a Landis Curved Needle will cut as the machine is stitching.

When you finish stitching go back to the beginning of the run. You may need to take out a few stitches and hand channel for a short distance because the Landis, at any rate, starts stitching behind (retrograde to) the channel knife.

I then restitch those one or stwo stitches and the last one (or what was the first one) I will throw an extra twist into the stitch, effectively making it a true "locked" stitch.

The last stitch in the run is taken out and restitched the same way...but no channeling is necessary.

Then on both ends, I simply cut the threads flush--on top, flush and tight to the welt. In the channel, flush and tight to the bottom of the channel.

Close up the channel and you're done.

It ends up looking almost like I know what I'm doing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

DW,

I am sure that it looks like you know what you are doing

This does seem like a great solution. I for some reason was focusing on doing it all with the machine and I should have thought using it part by hand.

Thanks for the feedback!
Terry

[romango]

DW,

So, you don't put a knot at the end of outsole stitching? I have done this and then melted the ends and always end up with an ugly black blob.

I just thought it needed to be tied off.

[dw]

Rick,

Well, putting that extra twist in is like making one half of a surgeon's knot. But you could tie a full knot...maybe a granny or a square knot?...as long as it was tied on the sole side and deep in the channel, you could then close up the channel without having to melt the thread.

I think almost as important as tying off, is that your stitching is one stitch longer than the welt--so that you always have one stitch over the skived end of the welt, holding it down and preventing it from pulling up.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[thomd]

"I'd say this is far and away from traditional shoemaking.
I am looking for some suggestions on bottoming materials,"

I make bike frames, purely for my own use. Years back I had a pair of racing shoes, then current, that had leather soles, and the metal cleat that fits into the pedal. I have never owned the newer click on click off system, and have had to evolve my own system to account for my injuries.

But to your question, in the 70s the cycling shoes had very hard leather soles. They were hard to walk in, but drove power into the pedals with great efficiency. In one of my only cobbler acts, which I always imagine involves driving nails, I attached the cleats to my own shoes. This involved nailing them into the sole, and there was no special resistance in there to indicate a wooden insole etc... My feeling is the sole was around 6mm. If this is the kind of info you want, I have some connections in the vintage cycling field and could see if anyone remembers how the soles were made. I never worked in a cycling store, but sports stores often have cutaways, or the distributors would have them. Rubber would not be a good sole, though some MTB soles are like rubber hiking shoes, though stiffened through the arch. If you want me to ask I would need to pass on your photos.

Very nice shoe, by the way!

[erickgeer]

Hey Thom,

Wow, this seems old now- the project got set aside. I finished the shoes, but they are far from the final designs- I was trying to keep the weight down, but it is just too flexible through the shank.

I purchase new old stock bike shoes occasionally- I have a pair of Detto Pietro's that appear to be from the early 80's or late 70's that look like leather, but if you look closer (or make shoes- ha, ha) are actually plastic. I don't know when they switched from leather and I can't figure out how the weight could be controlled, other than punching holes- I understand that the really old ones have a wood platform.
I'm not trying for historic accuracy, so I was hoping one of the Pedorthics fellows knew of a synthetic soling that was lightweight, stiff and cementable- I'm avoiding using Carbon Fiber, though from what I hear it is relatively easy to work with.

It is interesting to me that you make bikes- I'm planning on attending the National Handmade Bicycle Show in Indianapolis at the end of February. Somewhere on the forum- perhaps lurking?- there is an avid cyclist here in Chicago who was looking into making shoes a while ago- Bob, are you still out there?

Erick

[fred_coencped]

Erick and Thom,A rigid sole bar can be added to your shoe.The extended shank made of carbon fiber is available from Jms Plastics in Neptune,N.J.800/342-2602.It is 1" width and about 1/8th" thick .It is designed from carbon and has about 1/2" heel pitch.With it you can reshape in a convection oven.Because it is placed between the insole and sole ,heel to toe ,a high toe spring is required,thus a rocker bottom sole.

Please advise if the rigid sole is required for the "bicycle shoe".I did mean to visit the local bike shop since the last discussion,but have not and I am curious.

I use the rigid carboplast solebar for rigid rocker bottom soles for orthopedic purposes,it is lightweight,very strong and may be a very good material for the bike shoe,so lets here your thoughts,thanks,

Fred

[erickgeer]

Fred,

That sounds like it would be perfect and have the benifits of Carbon fiber without using the raw materials. I'll have to try it out when I am able to jump back into the project.

Do you think you could use a heat gun in lieu of an oven?

Yes the sole should be rigid- esp in the shank area into the ball- as Thom described, it is for transferring power from the leg muscles to the pedals.

Erick

[fred_coencped]

Erick,
The convection oven heats up more evenly but I think with TLC your heat gun might do the trick.You will see from the shank shape of the carboplast,it will closely resemble your last bottom.If you lay the shank in place on your last and heat it with your heat gun,I think you should be sucessful.We use a vacuum press.Just protect your hands from the heat .you must get it very hot.

Thank you for confirming that rigidity in the shank and ball areas is the goal for transferring power.

Anyway let us know and give JMS a call.OK,I guess I now think I know how to make some spin shoes!!!

Fred

[dearbone]

Erick,

i see you have gone through this, you know what they say,desperation/recession is the mother of inventions,i have been thinking about how to create the stiffness on the soles to push on pedals,i think i have a solution which will enable hand shoe makers to make bicycle shoes better than what is out there at $700.00 a pair. my customer wants a shoe for clipless pedals,although i have a solution which involves the insertion of a certain metal shank which can be sandwich between the soles and insoles to hold the cleats and firm enough to push on pedals without any give, what did you use to stiffen the soles?

Nasser