Outsoles

[dw]

Lisa, Tex,

Just one thing, don't try the old glue-and-wet trick that works so well with all-purpose. Water *is* a solvent for this cement. Let your outsoles temper until the flesh side is all but dry. Then apply the 1812. This cement doesn't reach its full strength for a day or so but it's workable in just about the same time frame as regular all-purpose. The reason all purpose doesn't work with oily leathers is that the solvent in the cement floats and mixes with the oil. That doesn't happen with the 1812, so it works really well with oily leathers. Heck, it would be worth the price of admission if that's *all* it was good for. Also, don't dilute the 1812 if you can help it. It only slows it down.

Finally...Lisa, I make a lot of red boots...for women. I have tried and tried to wear other colours myself. I've made myself peanut brittle coloured boots, grey boots, etc. and as soon as I put them on...well, they just don't look like my feet, is all. I'm of that old school that says "any colour is fine as long as it's black."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Thanks. I made the call and have a qt. free sample on the way. Thanks for the advice on it's use. They do ship in 5 gal quantities so I guess it is affordable to the small shop...although I don't know the price per gal..

If you will make yourself a pair of the Red Calf boots for WF, I will wear my bright red softy buffalos .....TR

[cmw]

A question about soles/welts

I’ve been home with my sick son, so there is a little time to write about something that I’ve often thought about. We resoled a pair of mexican boots the other day. We did it the way we usually do it with a half/three quarter sole.(I’m not sure which ya’ll call it). They were like most spanish style boots; they had an extra sole between the actual sole and insole. Now the question. Would it not be better to sew the welt to the middle sole and then glue/cement the actual sole to this. The glue/cement that is produced today is so strong that it can hold without the stitches in the welt. Apart from that the stitches in the welt are worn down/away with time anyway. I can imagine that it would save time for a maker that does his own repairs without weakening the structure of the boot. The boots I resoled the other day were old, so the middle sole was soft and playable. This part of the boot could be made with a softer leather to avoid a sole that is to stiff ( if it’s not a work boot).

This is the same way I made some sandals for my wife the first time I was in school. They are still going strong. Now that I think about it, we do it sometimes if there is a soft layer on the military boots we resole. (It depends on the design)

CW

[Eisele's Custom Boots]

Lisa,
I have been testing a glue from Basic Adhesives, actually two types.
One is a glue that would resemble Elmers cement (BR790) and one that is similar to laytex without the ammonia smell(BN4717).
They are both supposed to be water based and do clean up with water. They are both used gluing one side and assembling. From the testing that I have done, they could both replace rubber cement.
Kevin

[jake]

Al,

I've been trying to master the curve needle stitcher for about 3 years now. It has been said that I'm retarded. Well, I'm beginning to come around to think it might just be true.

You saw a pair of outsoles I stitched a month or so ago. I have to say, I was well pleased with them. But I still sew a pair of outsoles (roughly 50%) that I'm not well pleased with. It's got to be me, because this is the second machine I've owned. And I've gone through a fortune of leather practicing on scrap, which by the way just ain't the same as sticking a boot into the beast.

My basic request is for you to go through your process/technique of hand sewing a pair of outsoles. Some pics of your work would be appreciated too.

Here are some questions I present to you:

Do you wait until your outsole is dry to start your stitching? I ask you this because I have found you have much less distortion of the outsole when "awling" your welt. I just wet my outsole when I'm ready to sew.

What type of awl do you use? Do you switch awls to awl the forepart?

What type of thread do you use? Odd # of strands? Do you make it yourself?

Do you place a stitch groove in your welt to help with distorted stitches?

Do you use a stitch wheel to mark your stitches on the welt? How many stitches to the inch for a work boot?

Do you use nylon bristles or needles?

By the way, what's a jigger? Got a pic?

I sure would appreciate you taking the time to share any secrets to help someone start off on the right foot.

[shoestring]

Al,I to would be interested in seeing what steps and tools that's being used and anything else to do a top notch job,on hand sewing bottoms.

[dw]

Jake,

I'm not Al, and I'm not an expert or even an "old hand" at stitching the outsole by hand but I have done it and I remember some tidbits of advice that I received along the way...which may or may not help. Maybe if I flub it bad enough or give such ignorant advice, someone who really is everyday familiar with the technique will step in and correct us both.

Anyway here's a shot...

I wet my outsole with a spritz bottle just before stitching and just along the perimeter where I am going to cut my channel in from the edge and stitch.

I used a "square awl" all the way around. Didn't change awls or even awls sizes.

I used Teklon thread but you could use linen easily, and make the waxed ends up yourself. I bristled mine as usual. But I think you want a white wax for this job. Supposedly an odd number of threads will stay round and an even number of threads will lay flat. Isn't that right?...anybody?

I kind of like the idea of a real shallow channel in the welt but I've been told that that practice was frowned upon as indicative of amateur work. Despite that, I've seen some high end, semi-custom shoes, with a welt channel.

I used a stitch marker to space my stitches--10-12 to the inch--but I've been told that a "fudge wheel" works as well or better. And there's a tricky little technique involving a strip of leather fixed in close to the vamp that can help you keep your stitches an even distance from the vamp. But I won't try to explain that, as I've never even had the chance to fiddle with it.

As for the "jigger"...essentially it is a tool that is moved back and forth (Salaman). But, in this context, it probably applies to that little "ridge" in some of the old forepart irons that leaves a very neat and slight "step" on the top of the outsole/welt edge. This is suppose to make the outsole look thinner. In modern work and in more modern tools--even hand irons--the "jigger step" has probably been replaced by the top edge "wire."(just speculation)

I hope this helps...I know the query was not addressed to me and my responses may be more like "the blind leading the blind." But for what it's worth...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

I know the query was not addressed to me and my responses may be more like "the blind leading the blind.

No way Ol'Buddy! I sure do appreciate the information and effort to help me. I've got a pair of boots just waiting to implement your ideas. Mucho Gracious!

Take care!

Jake

[jake]

D.W.,

I'm getting ready for the handsewing. Received my new fudge wheels today from George Barnsley and Sons. One in 8 pitch, and one in 10.

2643.jpg

[shoestring]

When the fudge wheel is ran around the welt is the welt wet or the wheel heated and placed on a dry welt?

[jake]

Ed,

Now, I'm no expert, but here's my take on it.

First you wet the welt enough to hold an impression from the fudge wheel. Run the fudge wheel around the welt to mark the stitching. After cutting your flap on the sole for the blind stitch, you start your stitching using the marks you've just made on the welt. When you're through stitching, you re-wet your welt to "re-define" your stitches. You can also use a stitch prick to separate and tighten your stitches.

Some people use a fudge wheel to mark fancy lines on the sole and heel after inking. Of course, you would have to heat the fudge wheel to do this. I have never heard of heating your fudge wheel for the welt.

Like I said, I'm still green as a gourd, but trying to figure this technique out. Hope this has helped.

[dw]

I guess I'll inaugurate the "new and improved" Crispin Colloquy (just got upgraded on Saturday)...

Since this discussion forum is dedicated to exploring and archiving ideas and techniques, I thought I would offer up an alternative to the fudge plyers described in a previous post.

Now having said that, let me also say that the fudge plyers do a wonderful job. Results are what counts...always...and as far as I'm concerned time isn't, and shouldn't be a factor. I mention the last because although I am not sure how much time it takes to fudge around the forepart of a boot with the plyers, I have pricked up a welt in as little as 1:48...that's one minute, 48 seconds.

Granted, it takes a little experience and skill to use a "stitch prick" That's what the traditional tool for this work is called. according to Al, the stitch prick's main function was to remove excess wax from between the stitches but if memory serves, I've seen references in the literature that also say that the purpose of pricking up a welt is to separate and tighten the stitches.

A stitch prick is an all-around handy tool. Besides pricking up the welt, it will straighten stitches on a hand sewn outseam, clear wax from the edge of the welt where it meets the vamp, and open the channel while inseaming. It can also be used to gently rub off excess all purpose cement that is between the heel seat ant the counter cover...where you can't reach it with anything else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

The following set of images may help to illustrate the process.

The first photo is of two stitch pricks. The one on top is an antique, the bottom one I made from a bolt. The second photo is a close-up of the tips of each of these tools. Each configuration has its advantages, and I'd be hard pressed to choose between them if it came to that. Naturally, the wider prick makes a wider mark on the welt.That seems to be the style these days. And it is better for opening channels as well, in my opinion. the narrower one makes a very traditional division between the stitches; it more easily moves and adjusts stitches and it gets into those tight corners to clean out wax and cement better.

2959.jpg

2960.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

This next photo is of the welt pricked up. I bevel the edge of the welt before pricking. I cal your attention to the skewed mark towards the right of the photo (there may be others but this one is very apparent).

The second photo is of the same section of welt after trimming. I love the bevel that is formed there at the edge of the welt. Notice that the skewed mark is gone. The trimmer cleanly cuts the bevel and just below it, a sweet little "wire." Then, on the bottom edge of the sole another wire is cut and another bevel.

When you burnish the edge of the sole, the wax/ink gets applied to the bevel(s) very evenly and the end result is a clear and consistent black (or brown) demarcation (border) on the welt or the sole. I'll post another photo of that later today.

2962.jpg

2963.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

Several photos in this sequence...the first shows the welt after it has been pricked, trimmed, inked, and burnished. You can see the definite black border on the top edge/bevel of the welt. Of course this is as a result of using the trimmer and the burnishing irons on the finisher. But it is the classic, traditional look for edges and, with some variation, is much the same as would be achieved with nothing but hand tools.

2965.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[dw]

The next two photos show the bottom and the corresponding beveled edge/border so neat and so definite.

2967.jpg

2968.jpg

BTW, a stitch prick is also ideal for getting that green stuff from between your teeth

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[jake]

Hey Dee-Dubb,

I've been "entertaining" all weekend long. Finally got to fire up the old puter, and boy did I find a pleasant surprise! Let me be the first to congratulate you on a job well done. The Crispin Colloquy looks better than ever! Deep tip of the hat to ya! Thanks for all your hard work!

Great info on the "stitch pricks". Thanks for posting some of your work. I know I sure do appreciate you taking the time to post some of it. Nice lookin' job on the stitch pricking.

Hope all is well. Take care and Thanks once again Ol'Buddy!

[dw]

Jake,

Well, welcome to The Crispin Colloquy version four oh. Still got some tweaking to do--the left hand frame is too big and we've lost some smileys. Nothing big, however. I'm relaxin' Jackson.

You may appreciate me but I tell you and anyone who has ears to hear, we all appreciate you. You share and learn and contribute as much as anyone...more than me at times. I'm proud to have had you as one of my students and proud that you're a member of the HCC. Eventually the student...if he's a good student...surpasses the teacher...if he's a good teacher. If I were a younger man, and you didn't have the ranch, I'd be worried about keeping up with you!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[jake]

Dee-Dubb,

Thanks for your most gracious remarks! It means a lot to be held in such high regards, especially from a man of your stature.

Once again, Thank You for all your hard work to keep this place up and running. Most people don't understand how much work there is for a webmaster. WE appreciate you!

[tomo]

Hey DW,
those are great photos and explanations, but, do you hold the prickers like a dagger, you know sort of like an arm wrestling pose, so that the pricker is at right angle to the side of the boot?
Also prior to this do you use a pricking wheel to give you the spacing for the stitch holes and above prickers. Hope that makes sense.
AAAAND- is that a fudge wheel that you've put across the sole in the second to last photo above where the inking finishes?
I think those upgrades on the site make it very user friendly, and people like me sure need a lot of friendly : )
More power to y'awl
T.

[dw]

Tom,

Hmmm, I don't think I would describe it like that, more to avoid confusion than anything else. I hold the stitch prick almsot the same as i hold a sewing awl. The boot is turned on its side on the knee, the left hand holds the boot and supports the sole from underneath, and the prick is held perpendicular to the welt/sole. the point of the prick is cozied up into the side of the vamp and "flick, flick, flick" away you go.

Since I use a curved needle machine to stitch outsoles--stitch length is set on the machine--I don't have to use any other tool to set spacing. The prick makes the indentation between each stitch, which of course, are already in place...so they set the spacing. Hope that helps...?

And yes, that's a fudge wheel I'm using to make an ornamental border between my natural forepart and my dyed shank. Many of the old books indicate the use of some sort of "crow" wheel for just such final finishing touches. I've never seen a bona fide "crow" wheel and I don't like the "business" of impression wheels that are currently being made.

Simplicity is the soul of elegance, IMNSHO.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

[tomo]

Thanks DW.
You explained that just fine, and it makes alot of sense - especially when you see the tool.
Don't think you're wasting your time with all these questions. I'm getting sorted with the boots, ie getting tools etc together and practising things like inlays etc - I've just done an inlay buckle for myself and I'm part way through inlaying the front of a sheath for a customers hunting knife. : )

More power to y'awl.

T.

[jake]

Here's some repair work (half-soles) utilizing my hand sewing. There's no second set of holes or torn welt here, and the stitches are nicely submerged below the outsole surface. You can hardly see the slit in the outsole. I personally get a great deal of satisfaction delivering this type of work.

3068.jpg

3069.jpg

[bultsad]

Jake,
Could I be so bold as to ask what you are charging for a half sole done this way? Did you keep track of your time? If you performed this task on your own boots, or for a customer?
Jim

[jake]

Hey Jim,

Let's see....I had better talk to ya off the forum concerning prices. Wouldn't want to "advertise". Don't know if it's permitted, but I want to be safe.

This was for a customer. Didn't "time" myself because I'm still working on technique, but I imagine I have a couple of hours in the pair.

On new boots, the sole is much smoother and "glassed", but I just can't justify the time with repairs.

Take care!