I am finishing a pair of shoes and am in search of guidance about finishing the soles and edges. In particular, I am interested in what types of ink or heel ball you guys/gals use, as well as sources thereof, and techniques for applying/finishing. I would like to achieve a high-gloss finish on the edges, but I guess a more natural color on the soles would be preferable, since the uppers are brown. I am doing all this by hand, as I don't have any burnishing wheels, etc.
`
Also, Jake, are you using the fudge wheels to mark and then finish your welts? If so, can you let me know how you are doing this these days, e.g. are you wetting the welt prior to using the wheel (after sewing)? I tried my fudge wheel on the welt to mark the stitching with moderate success but would like to ensure that the next use leads to the best-looking results that I can achieve.
Thanks.
Outsoles
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lancepryor
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jake
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Re: Outsoles
Hey Lance,
Never could get the "imprint" needed with the hand fudge wheels. They used to make a "fudge" press, which contained a fudge wheel. After wetting the welt, the fudge press would make nice deep impressions. I'm sure if a feller kept at it with some determined elbow grease, you could achieve the same results.
I'm basically still doing things the way I demonstrated at our last HCC meeting.
As for the dying, inking, and finishing.....I'm still not satisfied with my results. There are those you can direct you better.
Stay at it Partner!
Adios!
Never could get the "imprint" needed with the hand fudge wheels. They used to make a "fudge" press, which contained a fudge wheel. After wetting the welt, the fudge press would make nice deep impressions. I'm sure if a feller kept at it with some determined elbow grease, you could achieve the same results.
I'm basically still doing things the way I demonstrated at our last HCC meeting.
As for the dying, inking, and finishing.....I'm still not satisfied with my results. There are those you can direct you better.
Stay at it Partner!
Adios!
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danfreeman
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Re: Outsoles
Lance
Excellent results from hand-finished edges were the last of the old hand techniques to survive--machines were finally made to produce good-looking edges, but not quite so good as the old.
I know that a nice, clear edge requires all edges to be sanded to a uniform fuzzy nap, with increasingly fine grit emery cloth, finishing with 320 or so. Any burned or discolored spots will remain, so remove them all. Bevel the edges, of course; then brush on a coat of alcohol dye, most of which will disappear (this is all we did with nailed sandals back in the 70's, minus the emery paper). I follow this with a brushed on coat of wax burnishing ink, thinned to the proper consistency, which must dry thoroughly.
A piece of polished bone is all you really need from here; but dedicated edging tools, of "kindly steel" will do a better, or at least a more refined job, heated and used vigorously.
This can be followed by a rub with a heel ball (the cupcake-shaped, crayon-like article from your finder) and a repetition of the ironing or boning; fimally brush or polish with a soft rag.
Excellent results from hand-finished edges were the last of the old hand techniques to survive--machines were finally made to produce good-looking edges, but not quite so good as the old.
I know that a nice, clear edge requires all edges to be sanded to a uniform fuzzy nap, with increasingly fine grit emery cloth, finishing with 320 or so. Any burned or discolored spots will remain, so remove them all. Bevel the edges, of course; then brush on a coat of alcohol dye, most of which will disappear (this is all we did with nailed sandals back in the 70's, minus the emery paper). I follow this with a brushed on coat of wax burnishing ink, thinned to the proper consistency, which must dry thoroughly.
A piece of polished bone is all you really need from here; but dedicated edging tools, of "kindly steel" will do a better, or at least a more refined job, heated and used vigorously.
This can be followed by a rub with a heel ball (the cupcake-shaped, crayon-like article from your finder) and a repetition of the ironing or boning; fimally brush or polish with a soft rag.
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lancepryor
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Re: Outsoles
Dan:
Thanks.
Would all of the aforementioned items be available from a Finder, i.e. the "alcohol dye" and burnishing ink in addition to the heel ball.
Also, what about the soles? Same methodology?
Lance
Thanks.
Would all of the aforementioned items be available from a Finder, i.e. the "alcohol dye" and burnishing ink in addition to the heel ball.
Also, what about the soles? Same methodology?
Lance
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danfreeman
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Re: Outsoles
Lance, et alia,
Sorry for the imprecision. Alcohol dye refers to Fiebing's Leather Dye, regular or oil type, and don't I wish alcohol were the solvent--use with ventilation. Other brands are fine: it's a thin, solvent-based stain you want, not a solid pigment paint. Fiebing makes Wax Burnishing Ink, as well, unless they've dropped that, too. It's a water-based wax (don't ask me how that happens), with nothing more offensive than some ammonia as a surfactant.
Dye is available from Tandy, Weaver, Beiler, and many finders in small bottles and large; I have only found burnishing ink and heel balls (ask for 'em by name) from the finders; these last two in black and brown only.
Heel and sole edges would get the same treatment, and should look the same, but if you are using high-speed edge cutters to trim your sole edges, these will not match a sandpapered heel every time.
Sorry for the imprecision. Alcohol dye refers to Fiebing's Leather Dye, regular or oil type, and don't I wish alcohol were the solvent--use with ventilation. Other brands are fine: it's a thin, solvent-based stain you want, not a solid pigment paint. Fiebing makes Wax Burnishing Ink, as well, unless they've dropped that, too. It's a water-based wax (don't ask me how that happens), with nothing more offensive than some ammonia as a surfactant.
Dye is available from Tandy, Weaver, Beiler, and many finders in small bottles and large; I have only found burnishing ink and heel balls (ask for 'em by name) from the finders; these last two in black and brown only.
Heel and sole edges would get the same treatment, and should look the same, but if you are using high-speed edge cutters to trim your sole edges, these will not match a sandpapered heel every time.
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Lisa Cresson
Re: Outsoles
Hi everyone,
I am looking for a pointer to a spray cement in shoemaking whose adhesive properties match Barge Cement or the equivalent. Anything come to mind?
Thanks in advance.
Lisa
I am looking for a pointer to a spray cement in shoemaking whose adhesive properties match Barge Cement or the equivalent. Anything come to mind?
Thanks in advance.
Lisa
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
I don't know if these exist...I'm looking for good quality molded soles with a built in heel that come small enough for women's shoes down to about a size seven. Something that could be used for casual walking shoes, winter boots, etc. I have a Vibram catalog, and it has almost nothing in women's sizes. If you trim the smallest men's size down you generally lose so much of the pattern on the sole I'm afraid it would affect function. Does anyone know of another brand of similar soling that comes in smaller sizes? (And where to buy it?) Thanks.
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paul
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Re: Outsoles
Jenny,
I don't know if I have an answer for you, but the spirit is willing.
First of all, terminology, if I may. Molded soles are not the same as unit soles. It sounds like you're looking for unit soles, where the heel and sole is all one unit, as illustrated in Vibram's product catalog. And you're looking for smaller sizes. Is that it?
Just as a side point, molded soles are generally for a particular style of last and it's part of the complete design and process, including lasting and press equipment. I think maybe Bill Tippet has something to do with factory molded soles. I have thought before, when I wanted the seal of a molded sole, I could use a leather/rubber dust and contact cement mixture, gooping it on the sides and sanding it after it's set up. But I'm thinking that's not what you'e looking for.
In Shop Talk Magazine's Big Book 2005, pg.51 is a list of Shoe & Boot Finders. One of these folks might have the size unit sole you're looking for. If you're talking one-sies though, you could make it your self out of crepe soling strips. I'd be happy to help with that.
My perspective is shoe repair and sole replacement, a skill related to making, of course. And it may not be where you want to go.
Maybe I can help more if I stop here and let you reply to this.
PK
I don't know if I have an answer for you, but the spirit is willing.
First of all, terminology, if I may. Molded soles are not the same as unit soles. It sounds like you're looking for unit soles, where the heel and sole is all one unit, as illustrated in Vibram's product catalog. And you're looking for smaller sizes. Is that it?
Just as a side point, molded soles are generally for a particular style of last and it's part of the complete design and process, including lasting and press equipment. I think maybe Bill Tippet has something to do with factory molded soles. I have thought before, when I wanted the seal of a molded sole, I could use a leather/rubber dust and contact cement mixture, gooping it on the sides and sanding it after it's set up. But I'm thinking that's not what you'e looking for.
In Shop Talk Magazine's Big Book 2005, pg.51 is a list of Shoe & Boot Finders. One of these folks might have the size unit sole you're looking for. If you're talking one-sies though, you could make it your self out of crepe soling strips. I'd be happy to help with that.
My perspective is shoe repair and sole replacement, a skill related to making, of course. And it may not be where you want to go.
Maybe I can help more if I stop here and let you reply to this.
PK
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Thanks, Paul, you are correct. I meant unit soles. I do have some sheets of soling material I can use, but it doesn't have lugs in a pattern with a heel, of course.
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paul
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Re: Outsoles
Well, what you might want to do then, is look at the #3359 heel and the #1253 sole.
You could do a dip in the shank area of your wedge, to separate the sole and heel areas, maybe even add a shank if you think you needed it. That might give you what you want.
If you can find the size, of course. But call around. I seldom take the first two no's as an answer.
PK
You could do a dip in the shank area of your wedge, to separate the sole and heel areas, maybe even add a shank if you think you needed it. That might give you what you want.
If you can find the size, of course. But call around. I seldom take the first two no's as an answer.
PK
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btippit
Re: Outsoles
Jenny,
If you can post a picture (or email it to me directly) of what you have that is too big I'll see if the sole company I work with in Mexico would be willing to sell very small quantities. This is an excellent company and I'm sure they will have something close and probably have it in smaller sizes. If enough people are interested perhaps a group can get together and combine an order. Otherwise, shipping will cost you more than the soles themselves. The only two companies besides Vibram I can think of in the US would be Jones & Vining and Meramec. I doubt if either of them will sell to individuals but I'll check with them anyway. They're good people so you never know. Something might "fall off the truck".
Bill "The Last Man Standing" Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
If you can post a picture (or email it to me directly) of what you have that is too big I'll see if the sole company I work with in Mexico would be willing to sell very small quantities. This is an excellent company and I'm sure they will have something close and probably have it in smaller sizes. If enough people are interested perhaps a group can get together and combine an order. Otherwise, shipping will cost you more than the soles themselves. The only two companies besides Vibram I can think of in the US would be Jones & Vining and Meramec. I doubt if either of them will sell to individuals but I'll check with them anyway. They're good people so you never know. Something might "fall off the truck".
Bill "The Last Man Standing" Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Bill,
Here's a link to a Vibram page.
http://www.vibram.us/products/lifestyle.asp
The 1712 soles come in women's 8 and 10, so I might try the 8 and cut it down. They're made of gumlite which supposedly doesn't freeze in cold weather so maintains its slip-resistance, which is very appealing to me. There are a bunch of other gumlite soles I've been looking at in the (paper) catalog. It's frustrating to see such a nice variety of products I can't use!
The 4014 Cristy is another sole that appeals to me, that is supposed to have good cushioning, but is not made of gumlite. I am interested in unit soles with low (no more than 3/4", preferably 1/2") wedges, as well as soles with a low heel. I'd prefer not to attach seperate heels myself at this point. I'm so new to this, I'm not confident they would stay on...
I'll probably try to get hold of a pair of 1712 soles through the local shoe finder and see how they work.
Meanwhile, I'm about to embark on making my first pair of lasts, hopefully over the next few days, starting out with STS sock molds of my feet (already done). I've got a 50 lb. drum of Ultracal 30 in my car trunk at the moment. I also expect to be using "Liquid Last" during the process. I know from reading the board that you're the last expert (no pun intended!). I may be seeking advice after this experiment!
Here's a link to a Vibram page.
http://www.vibram.us/products/lifestyle.asp
The 1712 soles come in women's 8 and 10, so I might try the 8 and cut it down. They're made of gumlite which supposedly doesn't freeze in cold weather so maintains its slip-resistance, which is very appealing to me. There are a bunch of other gumlite soles I've been looking at in the (paper) catalog. It's frustrating to see such a nice variety of products I can't use!
The 4014 Cristy is another sole that appeals to me, that is supposed to have good cushioning, but is not made of gumlite. I am interested in unit soles with low (no more than 3/4", preferably 1/2") wedges, as well as soles with a low heel. I'd prefer not to attach seperate heels myself at this point. I'm so new to this, I'm not confident they would stay on...
I'll probably try to get hold of a pair of 1712 soles through the local shoe finder and see how they work.
Meanwhile, I'm about to embark on making my first pair of lasts, hopefully over the next few days, starting out with STS sock molds of my feet (already done). I've got a 50 lb. drum of Ultracal 30 in my car trunk at the moment. I also expect to be using "Liquid Last" during the process. I know from reading the board that you're the last expert (no pun intended!). I may be seeking advice after this experiment!
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btippit
Re: Outsoles
Jenny,
Next week I'll see if my guys in Mexico as well as some other international options have anything to match these two styles in look and features. I'll also see if either JV or Meramec is interested in doing any small quantity orders.
I'll be happy to help in any way I can with the last, though my knowledge will be limited to last specifications etc. I have no experience in creating a last from scratch using the methods you describe.
As soon as I get some feedback from the sole companies I'll let you know.
Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
Next week I'll see if my guys in Mexico as well as some other international options have anything to match these two styles in look and features. I'll also see if either JV or Meramec is interested in doing any small quantity orders.
I'll be happy to help in any way I can with the last, though my knowledge will be limited to last specifications etc. I have no experience in creating a last from scratch using the methods you describe.
As soon as I get some feedback from the sole companies I'll let you know.
Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Thanks Bill and Paul. Paul, I looked at the items you referred to, and they look promising although I don't feel skilled enough to attempt something like that yet. Not sure I understand what you mean about a dip. Are you saying to take a wedge sole and on the bottom side carve it out to make a distinct heel?
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sharon raymond
Re: Outsoles
Greetings, My shoe findings supplier gets Vibram Joanne 3040 women's casual lite made of Vibram evaflex for me. It comes in sizes 6, 8, 10, and the 6 are about 10 1/2" long. It isn't exactly a flat sole with a wedge, but the heel does gently merge into the sole. Heel height is about 1/2-5/8". I could mail you a pair to check out, if you let me know by tomorrow, because I will be gone from Monday until Thanksgiving, but I could leave it for someone else to mail if I hear that you are interested. Best wishes, Sharon
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paul
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Re: Outsoles
Jenny,
I'm guessing you've got a good chance with Sharon going. I'm imaging you're both on the same page. Bill, I think you're talking molded soles and what Jenny needs is unit soles. Of course, I could be wrong. If so excuse me.
Jenny, If you're working with single pairs, I think you're probably gonna be ok with the size 8 #1712. These are always cut over size anyway, because in repair, you never know what toe shape you might get. Sometimes you need a size 10 for a size 8 shoe. There's usually enough room in the design to still have the tread features for a couple of sizes down.
Don't think there is any big challenge about glueing on a heel. If you can get a good set on the sole units you'll be doing, you'd have no trouble hammering on a heel. I'd be glad to help with that whenever.
PK
I'm guessing you've got a good chance with Sharon going. I'm imaging you're both on the same page. Bill, I think you're talking molded soles and what Jenny needs is unit soles. Of course, I could be wrong. If so excuse me.
Jenny, If you're working with single pairs, I think you're probably gonna be ok with the size 8 #1712. These are always cut over size anyway, because in repair, you never know what toe shape you might get. Sometimes you need a size 10 for a size 8 shoe. There's usually enough room in the design to still have the tread features for a couple of sizes down.
Don't think there is any big challenge about glueing on a heel. If you can get a good set on the sole units you'll be doing, you'd have no trouble hammering on a heel. I'd be glad to help with that whenever.
PK
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Lisa Cresson
Re: Outsoles
Hi Bill and Sharon,
I am back in NY for a few weeks before more traveling; but would like to be kept in the loop, off line so we don't violate the numbers rule; for availability. Just at the moment have jet lag and expect to be up all night.
Regards,
Lisa
I am back in NY for a few weeks before more traveling; but would like to be kept in the loop, off line so we don't violate the numbers rule; for availability. Just at the moment have jet lag and expect to be up all night.
Regards,
Lisa
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btippit
Re: Outsoles
Paul,
I think it's just a terminology thing. I would actually call these soles "blockers" since they don't fit a specific last but are to be trimmed as needed. I suppose referring to them as "unit soles" means they include the sole and heel (or wedge) but they're all molded so it's just semantics.
Anyway, JV, Meramec, and Rympsa all make products very similar to the Vibram soles with the same non-slip properties and other features. The only problem will be the quantity issue. I'll know more later this week.
Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
I think it's just a terminology thing. I would actually call these soles "blockers" since they don't fit a specific last but are to be trimmed as needed. I suppose referring to them as "unit soles" means they include the sole and heel (or wedge) but they're all molded so it's just semantics.
Anyway, JV, Meramec, and Rympsa all make products very similar to the Vibram soles with the same non-slip properties and other features. The only problem will be the quantity issue. I'll know more later this week.
Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Sharon,
I posted this message yesterday, but I guess it ended up on another thread! I'd be very interested in seeing a pair of Joanne soles. After Thanksgiving is fine, as I will be away as well. A 6 would work for me as long as the ball of the foot is at least 3 3/4 inches wide. I couldn't find that style in the Vibram catalog or on the Vibram U.S. or Italian Web sites. Do you know if it's a discontinued style? Thanks!
I posted this message yesterday, but I guess it ended up on another thread! I'd be very interested in seeing a pair of Joanne soles. After Thanksgiving is fine, as I will be away as well. A 6 would work for me as long as the ball of the foot is at least 3 3/4 inches wide. I couldn't find that style in the Vibram catalog or on the Vibram U.S. or Italian Web sites. Do you know if it's a discontinued style? Thanks!
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Paul,
When you attach a Vibram heel to a Vibram sole, do you just glue it with Barge and hammer it to get a good bond, or do you also nail it? If so, from the top (insole) or bottom?
I'm very reluctant to nail heels on. Years ago I had a roommate who didn't bother replacing the little plastic caps (sorry for my primitive vocabulary) on the bottom of the heels of her pumps, so nail heads were sticking out. I realized it by discovering a nice trail of dents in our wood floors leading to her bedroom.
I also hope to be making low heeled (1/2") dance shoes with stacked heels, and am hoping to avoid nails in those as well, because scatching up the dance floor would be a big no-no. I'm planning to just use Barge, but any suggestions (or reassurances) would be appreciated.
When you attach a Vibram heel to a Vibram sole, do you just glue it with Barge and hammer it to get a good bond, or do you also nail it? If so, from the top (insole) or bottom?
I'm very reluctant to nail heels on. Years ago I had a roommate who didn't bother replacing the little plastic caps (sorry for my primitive vocabulary) on the bottom of the heels of her pumps, so nail heads were sticking out. I realized it by discovering a nice trail of dents in our wood floors leading to her bedroom.
I also hope to be making low heeled (1/2") dance shoes with stacked heels, and am hoping to avoid nails in those as well, because scatching up the dance floor would be a big no-no. I'm planning to just use Barge, but any suggestions (or reassurances) would be appreciated.
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
Sharon,
Don't know if you saw my post of Nov. 15, but if the offer still stands, I'd love to to see a pair of the Joanne soles. I'll send you a private e-mail.
Jenny
Don't know if you saw my post of Nov. 15, but if the offer still stands, I'd love to to see a pair of the Joanne soles. I'll send you a private e-mail.
Jenny
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Outsoles
DW, what material do you use to make the heels on your dance shoes? I have seen some dance shoes use all (or a layer of) something that looks like Cloud or Soleflex (sp)--perhaps for shock absorption? Or do you use only leather? Thanks.
Jenny
Jenny
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dw
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Re: Outsoles
Jenny,
First, a clarification...I don't make dance shoes--I dance in shoes I make.
But I do know dance shoes and even own some commercial made practice shoes.
That said, I never use plastic or crepe...on boots I make or shoes/boots I wear. This isn't just some high toned politically correct self-righteousness. I just don't like the looks of plastic and I don't think it is in harmony with the reasons and pride I take in making footwear.
Beyond that, leather is as good a shock absorber as plastic (maybe better) with a minimum of distortion and breakdown (forget crepe in that regard), delivers a nice counter-weight to the rest of the shoe and is a natural by-product of making boots--I don't have to buy something special just for a heel, in other words.
So...that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Other may have a different take and your mileage may vary...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
First, a clarification...I don't make dance shoes--I dance in shoes I make.
But I do know dance shoes and even own some commercial made practice shoes.
That said, I never use plastic or crepe...on boots I make or shoes/boots I wear. This isn't just some high toned politically correct self-righteousness. I just don't like the looks of plastic and I don't think it is in harmony with the reasons and pride I take in making footwear.
Beyond that, leather is as good a shock absorber as plastic (maybe better) with a minimum of distortion and breakdown (forget crepe in that regard), delivers a nice counter-weight to the rest of the shoe and is a natural by-product of making boots--I don't have to buy something special just for a heel, in other words.
So...that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Other may have a different take and your mileage may vary...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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gordy