Outsoles

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dmcharg
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Re: Outsoles

#51 Post by dmcharg »

To All,
I'll have to have another sqiz at my copy of Paul Hasluck's 'Bootmaking and Repair', but I got the distinct impression that, back in the 1800's, the sole thread was twisted and I always put an overhand knot in every inseam and outseam stitch as I pass the bristles through to the other side, and if your holes are lined up it looks good (I *really* like Al's tip with the strip of leather to butt the awl up against. When I'm well enough to go back to bootmaking I want to try it).

And if I stop halfway through a stitch to explain something to an onlooker, letting the pitch cool down, it's a mongrel to get moving again Image

Chris, I've re-soled a pair of my boots with the above techs. and had no trouble using the same welt (had to cut every stitch and pick them out, but I had prised between the sole and welt to cut the first few stitches and then opened up the gap and continued. No damage to the welt).


To all those machine users; Ah, they may be fast but can you go to an event/show with a small tool box and a single spool of linen and have everything you need to demonstrate all the processes involved to make a boot/shoe? Image

Actually, I've found that rolling a thread is a BIG crowd puller here in Australia.

Cheers all
Duncan
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Re: Outsoles

#52 Post by cmw »

I thought I would start a little more trouble.

As far as I remember I have not seen any boots sewn through the insole. We do it alot here with the shoes that had it before the repair. Do any of you do it? why/why not?

NOW IT'S COLD AND WET IN THIS COUNTRY
CW
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Re: Outsoles

#53 Post by paul »

I've not posted too much here opinonwise, but I can jump in on this one. When I was in California doing shoe repair, while you wait style, ala Power Machine in Holland, we had a Standard Lockstitch Makay we used for 'insole stitched' design shoes. It had a much longer 'horn' than any Makay I'd used before, but still too short to get into the toe of a boot. It wouldn't be very practical to try to make a boot this way, I'd think, because the insole would just get too eaten up after a second resole.
And with higher heels and stress while walking, I don't think it would hold up very well, compared to a traditional inseam.

It's been interesting reading thoughts on lockstitches and outsoles. Thanks for the thoughts you've shared.
tmattimore

Re: Outsoles

#54 Post by tmattimore »

In a process called "American welting" United Shoe devolped an attachment for sewing welt thru the midsole on a mckay(blake) sewing machine. I have the attachment but have not had the time to set it up and use it. Also fallon mckays can be set up to do the same. I have repaired a few factory made welt shoes by sewing thru the insole with a jerk needle when the urethane rib has deteriorated. I used to call it the last ditch method.
Tom Mattimore
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Re: Outsoles

#55 Post by paul »

Tom,

I've repaired shoes similarly, and even converted cement construction soles to 'welt' constuction, by makaying on a midsloe and stitching the sole onto the margin I left as a 'welt'.
In your 'last ditch' method, what is the urethane rib you're refering to? Do you mean the fabric holdfast?

PK
Frank Jones of Lancashire,

Re: Outsoles

#56 Post by Frank Jones of Lancashire, »

What is a Lockstitch - my second try at posting this

A lot of the basic ground has been covered but perhaps I can add to it a little. In spite of that I have a problem - where to start?

Most definitions of this term seem to originate from the machinery manufacturers, so perhaps I should start there. When the heavy stitching machines were invented, the ones for stitching soles on rather than sewing uppers, the machinery quickly went in two directions. One group uses a single thread and produces a simple chain stitch, the other uses a second thread in a bobbin and produces a lockstitch. Examples of the first are the McKay (or Blake) machine and the Goodyear Welt sewing machine. The best example in the second group is the curved needle outsole stitcher, known by various names according to which country you are in. These include Landis, USM Goodyear Rapid, Frobana, Pedersen, and many more.

The early developers of the outsole stitcher had to convince customers that their machine could produce a stitch comparable to the hand stitching. This could not be done with a single chain-stitch machine. So they did the next best thing and used two threads looped over each other in the middle of the material. Externally, this looks like traditional hand stitching. Where the two threads loop over each other the machine makers called the “lock”, hence the machine was called a lockstitch machine.

The difference between the lockstitch seam produced by machine and traditional hand stitching is simply that with hand stitching (or sewing) each end of the thread is passed right through the material then loops back through the next stitch hole. With the lockstitch, the thread is pulled (or pushed) through the hole to form a loop on the opposite side of the material, then the other thread end is put through the loop and the first thread is pulled back just enough for the loop to finish up in the centre of the material thickness.

This is hard to describe in words. Below are two cross-sectional drawings. Both are produced by a “lockstitch” machine. The first is a lockstitch where the lock is buried in the centre of the material as it should be.
2309.gif


In the second diagram, the machine tensions are wrong and there is no real lock at all.
2310.gif


As has been mentioned above, this kind of stitching can be produced by hand with a jerk needle. I cannot think of any reason for copying a machine stitch, when the same amount of effort can produce the vastly superior hand stitching (or sewing), which no machine can copy.

Many hand boot/shoemakers speak of “locking” threads. They are nearly always referring to techniques similar to those already described here by DW and others. I personally would very unhappy if such techniques are called a lockstitch. Simply because the term has been used for over 100 years to describe the machine-made stitch spelt out above.

However, as always in our trade, words mean different things to different people. All I am quoting here is the common usage in a number of countries by many hundreds, if not thousands, of individual people.

Frank Jones
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Re: Outsoles

#57 Post by dmcharg »

" I cannot think of any reason for copying a machine stitch, when the same amount of effort can produce the vastly superior hand stitching (or sewing), which no machine can copy"


Hear, hear Frank.

10 years ago when I first started to fiddle around with leather I bought a 'Speedy Stitcher' and fine needles to make some mods. to a pair of shop bought boots. Most of the needles broke in the course of things, 1 of which continued on through my thumb.

I was set on the 'right' track of hand sewing and hand rolled threads by Australian bush historian and saddler Ron Edwards. Never looked back.

Cheers
Duncan
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Re: Outsoles

#58 Post by shane »

TO ALL,
LET ME TELL YOU A STORY ABOUT USING JERK NEEDLES. MY DAD AND I HAVE BEEN USING THEM TO REPAIR BOOTS FOR A LONG TIME. WHEN A PIECE OF WELT NEEDED REPLACED OR THE CURVE NEEDLE STITCHER WOULDN,T REACH, ECT. I, LIKE DUNCAN, HAVE IPAILED MY FINGER MANY TIMES. THE BARB ON THE NEEDLE GETS HOOKED IN THE FLESH JUST LIKE A FISH HOOK AND IT TAKES GRIT AND A HARD,QUICK JERK TO PULL IT OUT. THAT WAS THE BACKGROUND, HERE IS THE STORY.
ONE DAY MY DAD WAS IN THE SHOP ALONE. HE WAS STICHING A LITTLE STRETCH OF SOLE THAT HAD COME UNDONE. HE PUSHED THE JERK NEEDLE THROUGH THE SOLE, WELT, THEN HIS THUMB,(VERY DEEPLY). HE TRIED GET IT LOOSE BUT HE WAS SKEWERED TO DEEP. SO THERE HE SAT WITH A BOOT PINNED TO HIS THUMB. I KNOW YOU ALL ARE SAYING " JUST TAKE THE HAFT OFF THE NEEDLE AND PULL IT THROUGH THE SOLE". THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE BECAUSE THE JERK NEEDLES BASE IS MUCH BIGGER THAN THE POINT. HE TRIED TO FIND ME TO CUT IT OUT, BUT I WAS NO WHERE AROUND. SO HE WENT TO THE HOUSE WITH HEAD DROOPED AND TAIL BETWEEN HIS LEGS, TO REPORT TO MOM. SHE MADE HIM GET IN THE CAR TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL(45 MILES AWAY). WHEN THE DOCTOR CAME IN, HE HAD TO LEAVE THE ROOM 3 TIMES BEFORE HE COULD REMOVE THE BOOT, BECAUSE HE WAS LAUGHING SO HARD.
NOW WHO WANTS TO REPLICATE A MACHINE STITCH?
SHANE
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Re: Outsoles

#59 Post by dmcharg »

OOOOWWWWWW!!!


I'm pleased to say that the 'Speedies' needle wasn't barbed, but the broken off half was bad enough.

I feel for your dad Shane.

Duncan (wincing and going to another thread)


P.S. Was your dad's car stick shift or automatic?
Sharon Raymond

Re: Outsoles

#60 Post by Sharon Raymond »

Greetings, A company that tears down old mills let me know that they have over 30,000 "antique" women's lasts, available for $1.00 or less in volume. They seems to have high-heels and pointed toes.Anyone interested can go to www.longleaflumber.com, click on Ongoing Projects, then on Everett Mills to see a sample pair. They are located near Boston MA. Sharon Raymond
Sharon Raymond

Re: Outsoles

#61 Post by Sharon Raymond »

Greetings, I would like to try making a "high-heeled" (1 1/2 inches) sandal and wonder if any bootmakers could tell me where I could purchase a few pair for the experiment. Thanks
Frank Jones of Lancashire,

Re: Outsoles

#62 Post by Frank Jones of Lancashire, »

Sharon

As you know I am not a bootmaker but perhaps I can add a word or two anyway.

You are asking about one and a half inch heels on sandals. I am not sure if you are looking for boots with such heels perhaps to take apart, or if you are looking for the heels themselves. I suspect the latter.

The term “Bootmakers” here on the Colloquy usually means Western Bootmakers. However again it is not clear but perhaps you mean bootmakers in a wider sense, which might include ladies fashion boots. The heels on such boots are traditionally made from hardwood or in modern times, high impact plastic.

As you can see I am not clear what it is you are after. Can you clarify what it is you are looking for ?

On a different subject, I cannot speak for others but I do appreciate you posting the info about Everett Mills and the lasts. I found the web site fascinating. It is great to see people reusing materials.

Looking forward to meeting you face-to-facein Totnes, Devon during February.

Frank Jones
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Sharon Raymond

Re: Outsoles

#63 Post by Sharon Raymond »

Thanks Frank, I am really looking forward to the convention - and learning about water-based adhesives. Regarding heels, I am wondering where to purchase the heel itself, hardwood or plastic, some of both if possible.
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Re: Outsoles

#64 Post by dw »

Sharon,

If you're here in the States, almost any finder will have plastic and sometimes wood heel blocks for use on ladies shoes and fashion boots. They usually have to be covered with the same leather as is being used for the vamp. Or sometimes they cover them with a flat piece of leather that is "constructed" of quarter inch strips of cross cut soling leather--so that the whole effect looks like a stacked heel.

If you are looking for something more on the order of a real stacked heel...as is used on cowboy boots...again any finder will have them, but what's to prevent you from making (stacking) them yourself? That way you control the shape (I imagine you might have something a little less "utilitarian" looking in mind) and the height...as well as the way it conforms to the bottom of the shoe...to a "T."

It's a thought...


Tight Stitches
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Frank Jones of Lancashire,

Re: Outsoles

#65 Post by Frank Jones of Lancashire, »

Sharon

I cannot comment directly on whether you can obtain wooden or plastic heels from your local finder in the USA. I assume you have the contacts to check this out in your area.

However, a couple of general points regarding “fashion” heels for women’s footwear might be relevant. Be very careful that the heels you buy are not only the shape and style you are looking for but also that the angle and height of the heel is right for the last in question. I would suggest taking the last with you when you buy the heels. Also, ensure that the heel cupping and the size of the heel base is the same or very similar to the base of the last at the seat. They do vary.

Regarding covering heel with leather, it makes life much easier if the heel covers are put through a splitting machine so that they are under 1mm in thickness. The more curved the heel the more important this becomes. We have one or two specialist finders here in UK (we call them leather and grindery merchants or just shoe repair suppliers) who will provide a splitting service for a small fee, if you buy your heels from them.

Finally, how are you going to fix the heel to the shoe/boot? This is much easier with wooden heels than with plastic. Plastic heels are designed to be used by factories who use powerful hydraulic machines to drive in the heel attaching nails.

Heel attaching and suitable insole reinforcement for high heel footwear is a whole subject in itself. Come back again if you need more on this.

Merry Christmas

Frank Jones
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Re: Outsoles

#66 Post by walrus »

Hi Sharon
You can get plastic and leather stack heels From:
Ruby Leather Co.Wholesale Leather and Findings shoe supplies.They carry a full line of thred ,adhesives,findings berkinstock soles for sandles,they have been our supplier for 15 years.Call and ask for mike.
Milwaukee WI.
1.800.866.7829
Sharon Raymond

Re: Outsoles

#67 Post by Sharon Raymond »

Thanks,guys, I'll order a few pair and play around with them, opening up a whole new area of challenges. Happy New Year!
Anonymous

Re: Outsoles

#68 Post by Anonymous »

Hi Gang
Happy New Year from Alliston,(southern) Ontario, CANADA. Here in the frozen North of 49 its really frozen - sorta like Minnesota or Sweden! In fact, out my back door looks a lot like "out Jannes back door" these days.

Anyway, I'm gonna ask another beginner question and rely on your well-known generosity. I followed the "jerk Needle" discussion with great interest and at least one big wince Image, as I'm getting more and more requests to repair welted brogans/booties. I think I have the concept in my mind fairly clearly, but I'm fuzzy on the details

SOOO... can anyone give my a paint-by-numbers description of where to get and how to use jerk needles, or even a referral to a book, manuscript etc? In advance, thanks again.

Trying for tighter stitches,
Peter Monahan, quasi-cobbler Image
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Re: Outsoles

#69 Post by shane »

Peter,
A jerk needle is really the needle from an american sraight needle stitcher. they come in variety of sizes. Any shoe finder should carry them. As for size,just get some of each, they are relatively cheap. You also need a awl haft to mount them in, one with a chuck and collet ( like a router). As for using them it is simple. First pull your thread through the first hole, leaving an equal length on each side of the hole. Now insert the jerk needle from side 1 so the tip is coming out on side 2. Take the thread from side 2, make a loop and put it on the jerk needle. Then pull the jerk needle back through to side 1 this should have brought the loop of thread with it. Now run the loose end of thread 1 through the loop. Grasp both threads and pull. The loop should pull the other thread into the center of the work. You can pull on one thread more than the other to adjust the tension.
I hope this isn't too fuzzy. Watch your thumb, so it doesn't get skewered.
Shane
jonathon

Re: Outsoles

#70 Post by jonathon »

Anonymous,
I in no way mean to degrade the jerk needle (speedy stitcher). Every tool has its place. However, it is my opinion that a satisfactory job in sewing welts cannot be achieved with one of these tools. A great deal of tension needs to be applied to your waxed threads, and I'm afraid a jerk needle just isn't up to the job!
I've no doubt that If you take a look through the archives, you'll wander across some very detailed descriptions (and diagrams) posted by D.W. and others on waxed ends, suitable awls, techniques etc. The Colloquy is a wonderful resource. With a little hunting you'll be well rewarded.

Cheers.
Jon.
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Re: Outsoles

#71 Post by dw »

All,

This is a little premature (today will tell) but I've been using a water based neoprene cement from Upaco for several pairs of boots now...to put on soles and heels, to cement insole liners and shank covers and even to cement in toe boxes--everywhere you might ordinarily use an all purpose cement, in other words. It has virtually no smell whatsoever and can be heat activated from what I've been told.

I say "premature" because I am working on a pair of boots made with some of that oil stuffed work leather that Hardke sells. So far so good, but today I'll put on the soles. I already have a pair of ostrich boots that I used the water based cement on...to put on soles...with no problems. But I don't know how the cement will stick to the oily leather. I'm pretty confidant, however.

For those who worry about fumes this might be just the ticket. And there's no "formaldahyde" smell, at all.


Tight Stitches
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Tex Robin

Re: Outsoles

#72 Post by Tex Robin »

DW,

I am interested in trying some of the new cement. Is there a jobber where one can get a small amount, like a qt?

Regular all-purpose doesn't stick oily leather too well either, one reason I don't like oily leather....TR
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Re: Outsoles

#73 Post by dw »

Tex,

No jobber that I know of, but Upaco/Worthen Industries will almost certainly send you a free "sample" quart if you talk nice to them.

Let's see...do I have their phone number here in the house??...No, I guess not...well, hang on...

Ok, here ya go:

Upaco Adhesives
1.603.888.5443
talk to Barbara Strickland and ask for product 1812

If you have one of those plastic German glue pots sitting around empty, that's probably the best way to handle this stuff. Otherwise, I just keep my brush in a small tin of water in-between the time when I want to actually apply cement.

BTW, along with this glue, I tried *not* gluing my outsoles first and just soaking them for 10 to 20 minutes. As long as I pre-sand the finish off of some of these Italian soles or use Rendenbach, it seems to work fine. It's not necessary to soak a set of soles three or more hours. That's not the way I was taught and not the way I've done it for lo these many years but it does work and I've learned something new (forget about old dogs and new tricks). So, thanks for the tip.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tex Robin

Re: Outsoles

#74 Post by Tex Robin »

DW,

Thanks, I will give them a call....TR
Lisa Sorrell

Re: Outsoles

#75 Post by Lisa Sorrell »

DW,
Thanks for doing the research and sharing the results. I'd love to be working with a water-based cement and if you say it works for you I'm going to try it.

Has anyone ever found a substitute for rubber cement? The only things I use rubber cement for is glueing tops together and a light coat for marking stitching and inlay patterns.

Lisa
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