Outsoles

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Re: Outsoles

#326 Post by das »

Mack,

Thanks for the speedy reply, not to mention the kind words. You couldn't be more right on the proper stuff being hard or impossible to find anymore, hence we have to compensate in other ways to achieve comparable results--"adapt and overcome". You are trying to emulate classic 20thc. standards--my shop, most of the time, is trying for 1770s standards, and that's a huge challenge. As short as the fiber staples are in the hemp yarns spun these days (it's mostly all been wrecked, being processed on cotton spinning machines I'm told), I'm having fits finding any hemp yarn that will make a loosely twisted 4-strand stitching thread, and not break every few stitches (even 7 strands are popping during inseaming). There are stronger (wet spun) hemp yarns out here, but invariably they're dirty-dark grey, and do not make as pretty "pearly" stitch rows. Fine for inseaming where it doesn't show, but....

When I was an apprentice, I was taught to stitch everything "blind", then go back and set the stitches in line with a "jigger", and prick up each stitch on the welt to achieve the look; however, I admit, this was one technique I never learned to love ( I cheat and use a fudge wheel as you describe, to make things go easier/faster, but hand-prick afterwards to really chop those stitches if not well defined, especially on stout work).

The passage of time is indeed conspiring against our trade in so many ways, but it always amazes me to read re-read Rees and Devlin--Devlin especially--as they lament much the same things in the 19th century! Crummy leather; decline in skills in general, difficulties in finding decent grindery...seems we all like to look back towards some "golden age" that's always half-buried in the past.

Are there any schemes in London (or anywhere in the UK) outside the last few West End shops, that are trying to teach/train or otherwise continue the traditions? Cordwainers College was struggling, I remember, to revive a hand-sewn shoemaking course and did revive it briefly, but then if folded again before the college itself folded. Are you finding any boost in manpower via hand-sewn men now immigrating from E.
Europe?

Funny Lobb story: first time visiting their cellar workrooms, only a few years into my training, I was wearing an early pair of my own 1770s shoes. They're on their third owner now, and still going--dumb luck? The workrooms were segregated--the older experienced workers in one room, the young learners tucked in the other. I had taken off one of my shoes and was examining it with an old (80s?) German(?) man. When he got to the "blind rand" in the seat he exclaimed in astonishment, "who ever taught you to do this?!", "I have not seen anybody do that this way since my grandfather's time, and it was old-fashioned then!". I didn't half feel vindicated...so, I had managed to do a technique considered old-fashioned by 1900, and it was immediately recognizable to this old gent in the 1970s. In the young workers' room, I met a young woman named Lee Kellgren, who I understood later went on to work at Bermondsey Bootmakers. Did she ever stick with the trade? Do you know?
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Re: Outsoles

#327 Post by dw »

All,

I was taught to prick up the welt as well. I never saw a fudge wheel till much later in my career. Of course, I was also taught to use the curved needle stitcher for "outseaming" Image In truth, I think the machine stitched welt is probably more authentic to the footwear that I have made my career with--western boots.

I do like and want to learn/master welt stitching with the square awl, however, especially for my shoes. But now with Barnsley gone, I am having a hard time finding a #10 fudge wheel--I have a 12 and a 16 (both nice antique tools).

I also can't quite get from using a fudge wheel on a damp welt...which leaves a clear but shallow impression...to the deep and crisp "pricking up"(?) that is evident on Mack's and other West End/European work. How is that done?

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Re: Outsoles

#328 Post by das »

DW,

I can see a run on fudge wheels on eBay starting Image

The two best types of fudge wheels I have are USMC brand (single wheels, each numbered to spi), made until recently, as well as a German brand (Gotz still sells) with a hollow handle for spare wheels, and a latch on the carriage to swap out the wheels. These both have very deep, crisp teeth, and if you wet your welt first and bear down hard, they'll make a very deep imprint, but be careful steering them around the radius of the toe so the dents don't go out of alignment--keep the dents tangent to the feather-line. Also, you might put that leather guard strip around your upper first, as these wheels will scar the leather if they run up against the vamp with the amount of pressure one's applying. If you go too light for fear of loosing control and scraping the vamp, you won't get a good imprint. And, I've never had any luck running them a second time--you only get one pass.

Stitching blades: I think it's in Hasluck...Leno....? one of the "dead guys" books anyway, but there's a whole section on these and others awl blades, and how to properly set them up in the hafts at the proper angles, etc. Basically, set the stitching awl in so that the edge of it's point (slightly angled) is in line with an invisible center-line down the haft. As you observed yesterday, these are highly curved. They best way I can describe using one is, you lay the point flat to the welt right where you want to stitch, then push straight down through the welt, then let the blade's curve steer the blade through the sole and out the channel using its natural curve. Fighting, twisting, or horsing these blades around will snap them every time. Just lay it down, push it down, then let it guide your hand for the follow-through.

After you get comfortable with it, you can tweak the blade-angle by adjusting the point via sharpening. As with every awl, half of the secret is to keep it razor sharp at the point, and polish the entire working length of the blade with 600 wet/dry, then buff it to a mirror finish with a folded bit leather and jeweler's rouge, and of course dip your blade in beeswax between every stitch, so the tool does the work, not you.

While I'm at it, knowing where the point will emerge on the bottom of the sole can be problematical in the beginning, as well as how far in to cut your channel, etc., so everything comes together properly. After a while, once you get to know your awl well, this all becomes second nature of course, but what I find helpful when just starting out--and it's just a dodge to do at first, not a habit to get into--take the stitching awl you plan to use; carefully run a test-hole down from the welt at both joints, and 3 holes spaced around the toe. Try to go slowly and not break the surface on the sole, but go just deep enough that you can feel the awl's point under the surface with your finger. Then play "connect the dots" to trace out your channel, and cut that by eye with a short-bladed knife. The test-holes will invariably bugger-up your channel flap, or show, especially if you went too deep and cut through to the surface; but for the first trial pair or two, this is a big help until you know with certainty just where that awl is going to emerge. There's nothing more frustrating than making a decent shoe, laying out a decent welt, cutting a nice channel, opening it, and starting to stitch only to find your stitches tend to run up the side of the channel, pop out through the flap, or trying to force the exit-holes to move in/out by fighting the awl blade and snapping it.

I usually don't turn my apprentices loose with square-point stitching awls until 5 or 6 years in--it's one of the last techniques they are expected to master--this is not for the timid.

Pricking: as I said before, I'm nowhere near Mack's, Marcell's, et al's level with this kind of stitching, but like my master I'm in good company: after completely stitching the welt/sole, the stitching on the welt always--always--needs dressing to give it that finished look. First step is to scrape off the excess wax on the threads, and any bits of fluff from rasping the edges. This is where the "bone & rattle" or "scratch bone" (see Salaman's book) comes in. A short tool made from a rib-bone, with one flattened end cut into shallow teeth. This is rubbed over the stitches, the teeth gathering and removing the excess wax. Then I take a small scrap of thickest sole leather cut into an elongated triangle to reach way back under the upper, to the join at the inseam, and vigorously rub to clean out the crevice, even using it to apply some clean tallow if desired. With the narrow end of the "bone & rattle" (shaped like a fine book-binder's bone folder), I burnish the upper and the feather-line on the insole up hard against the edge of the last to get a well-defined edge. Then I prick the stitches with the "stitch prick"--the kind that looks like a long curved screw driver (see Salaman's book). This is followed by the first steps of edge-setting with the "jigger", a heated iron (see Salaman's book), the lip of which bears against the outside of your row of stitches, and pushes any (inevitable) errant ones up into line. Afterwards, if the stitching wants to look clean, white, and pearly, I paint on some "gum dragon" (gum tragacath) with the little triangle of sole leather used to clean the welt crevice.... Then there's the edge finishing.....

A run on "bone & rattles", and "jiggers" on eBay soon no doubt Image
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Re: Outsoles

#329 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

As I remember it (I know Mack will be able to add to this), the damp welt was fudge-wheeled before stitching; then, as part of the finishing, it was fudged again with heel ball on a heated fudge wheel, with lots of pressure applied. I think that, if the initial fudging (sic!) was done with pretty heavy pressure, and the stitches are placed properly, then in the later passes the wheel will find the same spaces/depressions and thus will reinforce/deepen them. Of course, my personal experience is that this is easier said than done. I still have come nowhere close to the very nicely defined versions of the west end, but on one of my earliest efforts the welt came out looking pretty clearly marked. It is most likely also a function of the condition of the fudge wheel.

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Re: Outsoles

#330 Post by dearbone »

/image{The Fudger}
Great conversations,
Since we are on the subject of fudge wheels,I thought I will show you this device, I traded for a pair of shoes with repairman, it is hand and foot device, by pulling down on the string by foot, it raises the round platform toward the wheel and the shoe is in between, the wheel has a guard, you can not damage the vamp with this one. It came with 3 sizes of wheels # 16, 24, 32, my #10 hand wheel is the same size # 24 on the device.
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Re: Outsoles

#331 Post by dearbone »

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Re: Outsoles

#332 Post by romango »

Wow! very cool machine.
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Re: Outsoles

#333 Post by dearbone »

DW,
If you desire a deep fudge wheel imprint, This device will certainly does it, As a matter of fact, you can press hard enough to make the welt disappear all-togather.
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Re: Outsoles

#334 Post by mack »

Al,
Places to learn shoemaking are few and far between. Lobbs do a very good job but many people learn and stick it for a while but probably because it is hard to make a decent living, give up and move on. There is a big interest from Japanese students at the moment and you can see some of the fine shoes they make when they return to Japan.
In the London trade there are a healthy number of makers and lastmakers but not many closers .I had a conversation with one of the lads at Lobbs recently and he wanted to learn making. I suggested to him why not consider closing as it is a cleaner job and less physically demanding,but it seems making is the more popular job.I had no idea when I started what hard work it would be to keep up a good standard of work and try to make 3 pairs a week.
I am often asked to teach, I have had 2 requests this year already, but to teach someone and try to earn a living would be very difficult and probably not fair to the apprentice. We all need to pass on the little knowledge we have but how to fit everything in I havent worked out yet. How do you handle teaching and work ?
I knew Lee Kellgren, we worked in the training room together .She went on to become a very good shoemaker. I can't remember her connection with Bermondsey Bootmakers but I know she left the trade a number of years ago.
Regards Mack.
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Re: Outsoles

#335 Post by mack »

DW,
The method I use is to damp the welt and to run the warm fudge wheel along the welt,being careful not to mark the upper, use a leather strip if in doubt. Then stitch the sole, close the sole channel.When it comes to finishing after cleaning excess wax away damp the welt again and if you are using ink or stain put it on and run the warm wheel over the welt you can use heelball or polish on the welt and apply the wheel again. You may need to gently put the wheel over after the edge has been set just to seperate the stitches from the lip of the iron
Regards Mack
P.S.I looked at my awls and the awl I would use to stitch a 10 to 11 iron sole on a dress shoe measured 2 3/4 inches and I would call it medium weight.
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Re: Outsoles

#336 Post by dw »

Nassar,

I've seen those machines in old lithographs. I've never had an urge to own one. I'm machine heavy as it is. Image

I'd try out the fudge wheel method if I had a #10 but in the absence of same I have little stitch prick type tool that I made which is set at about 11 spi. I'll try that next.

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Re: Outsoles

#337 Post by dw »

Mack,

Thank you for your advice and help. I am grateful for your generosity...it is not a given. Image Nor taken for granted.

I especially wanted to thank you for replying to my speculations about awl sizes. I went right to the tool hoard looking for a 2 3/4" square awl. Nada. But I do have a 3" which may work.

I wanted to ask you if you've ever tried any synthetic thread for welt stitching? Probably not even in the picture. But I have a source for some 4 cord dacron that can be tapered and waxed and twisted onto a bristle (boars or nylon) and of course it won't tear apart or rot.

With all the linen mills in Ireland going tips up, what will the West End trade do?

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Re: Outsoles

#338 Post by mack »

DW,
There are still a few different hemps around in Europe.They tend to be shorter fibred and not as 'clean' as the Irish type,allthough a little more difficult to work with they can still make a good strong thread.
I have never tried synthetic thread and dont know the ins and outs of it, but because we have to vary the thread weight so much for differing shoes I wonder if it is suitable, but if sources of hemp do dry up we will have to adapt.
When thermowax finished we all started making our own wax , so things change sometimes.
Regards Mack
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Re: Outsoles

#339 Post by dw »

Mack,

It took me a while to overcome my doubts about using dacron. I was trained with linen and revere it. But de-stranding is not a problem if the thread is not pre-waxed. Each individual strand is roughly equivalent to a strand of #10 linen yarn. So, if you start with a 12 cord dacron you can easily make it into a six cord or a four cord or even a three cord if you wanted.

The only compromise or weakness of the dacron vis the linen, that I can see, is that it doesn't hold the wax as well as the linen or hemp. But, that said, it will hold wax...just not as well.

Now, if the issue is to create an immovable knot of thread and wax embedded in the sole--so immovable that when a worn outsole is cut loose of the welt, the thread knot is almost unremovable, dacron won't do that. But it has been my experience that dacron and handwax welt stitching will last as long as the soles will last, in most cases.

The upside of dacron...won't rot, is supper strong, and is pristine white if you want it pristine white. It can be dyed or coloured, once stitched, with shoe polish or antiquing but dacron also comes in black and brown...which remain black or brown. Of course it also comes in raspberry and turquoise. Image

I'm not selling it Image but it is an alternative that I think we might all have to consider sooner or later.

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Re: Outsoles

#340 Post by dw »

Further to my sad lack of a #10 fudge wheel I made this tool over the weekend. I had started it as a little different concept/shape and then modified it to the present double stitch prick configuration.

The wood is wormy Arkansas persimmon (AKA, believe it or not, American Ebony).

The prick is set to just a little under 10 to the inch. Maybe 57 in six inches. I can adjust that simply by cutting the leading edges back just a tad and re-sharpening it. But at least for the time being this will do...while I learn and perfect my skills (such as they are). Image

Anyway all C&C (comments and critiques) sincerely welcome.
6694.jpg

6695.jpg


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Re: Outsoles

#341 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

Very nice! Looks like you can "get'er done" with that rascal. By the way, that piece of wood looks familar.

One thing though....you need to watch your tongue concerning "wormy" stuff from Arkansas!
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Re: Outsoles

#342 Post by dw »

Jake!!

I was hoping you were looking in on all this. Yep, that's prime goods from your Plantation.

I wasn't sure of the shape of the handle so I used some of the "antiqued" stuff and just froze the little "antiquers" and the powder in place by saturating the holes with CA.

Thank again old friend.

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Re: Outsoles

#343 Post by relferink »

Mack,

Sorry for the delayed reply. Your correct that there are many ways to make shoes, not to mention the many different types of shoes and whatever passes under that name. From a piece of rubber stuck to the bottom of feet all the way up to wearable art. Some very talented makers have shown off beautiful pieces of wearable ART (deserving of a capital A, capital R, capital T) here and are an inspiration to allImage In fact everyone still nutty enough (and I mean that in the most positive wayImage) to make individual shoes by hand is always striving to make the next pair even better and hope someday to be able to make shoes half as beautiful as what you make.

Rob
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Re: Outsoles

#344 Post by relferink »

Nasser,

That's a nice machine. I wonder if the marking have any metric meaning, 24 being 2.4 MM (1/10th of an inch) That would make the 16 wheel 15.5 to an inch. Sounds like you made a great trade with that repairman. Any chance you want to trade it for the Brooklyn Bridge?Image

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Re: Outsoles

#345 Post by dearbone »

Hi Rob,
I somehow overlooked and missed your post until now,I run all 3 fudge wheels on a piece of leather and counted the wheel marking (cells), here is what I got: on#16 I got 10 cells to an inch. on# 24 wheel, i counted 14 cells to an inch and on#32 I counted 18 cells, I do not know the meaning of the numbers on the wheels and neither your explaintion, let me know if you find out more about the numbers. As far as trading it with Brooklyn Bridge, the answer is NO, I thought the Dutch traded New York in the 1700c.
Regards Nasser.
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Re: Outsoles

#346 Post by relferink »

Hmm, that blows my theory about a the wheels being marked with some metric system out of the water. Still a great machine.

Nasser, you are correct,the Dutch did trade New York but the Brooklyn bridge was not part of that deal. It was excluded for the specific purpose of offering to to you in exchange for your fudge wheel machineImage. (or maybe because it hadn't been build when New York was traded)

Rob
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Re: Outsoles

#347 Post by chuck_deats »

All,

Considering using paraffin instead of beeswax to wax outsole thread (linen or cotton covered polyester). Reasons: colorless, less sticky, picks up less dirt, and I think will keep polish from penetrating so stitch will look cleaner longer.

Comments?? or am I off the wall??

Chuck
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Re: Outsoles

#348 Post by dw »

Chuck,

I was always given to understand that petroleum based oils and waxes would rot natural fiber.

I tried some paraffin, from a candle, on some dacron thread for welt stitching. It seemed to flake off almost immediately.

Of course that was dacron and it was candle wax...

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Re: Outsoles

#349 Post by chuck_deats »

DW,

Thanks for the comments, trying it now. Bright white thread. Does not pick up dirt while sewing. Burnish it in like hand wax. Seems to stick pretty well. Would not expect it to stick to polyester. Can't make my hand wax stick to polyester. Beeswax on ends to hold wire bristle. Very litle thread lock from the wax. May be a problem when soles wear down and expose threads but looks good for now.

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Re: Outsoles

#350 Post by dw »

Chuck,


Just a point of reference...I am currently using some hand wax I made up from pitch, rosin and beeswax that sticks to polyester almost as well as to linen. (Well, you know that's an exaggeration but it sticks really, really good)

How I got it that good, I couldn't tell you. It is a mixing of several failed batches with some more pitch I believe. I think the pitch tends to be the critical ingredient. I almost believe that you could leave out the rosin and do fine.

But while I seldom burnish hand wax into poly the way I used to do with linen, after inseaming an entire boot with a pristine white Teklon, and cutting the surplus, even the centers of the threads were bronze-black.

It can be done...have faith!

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