Outsoles

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#126 Post by dw »

Gordon,

Not sure what you are referring to...why would you need to cement the channel? Unless you are channeling in from the side of the outsole?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
gordy

Re: Outsoles

#127 Post by gordy »

DW wrote: "Not sure what you are referring to...why would you need to cement the channel? Unless you are channeling in from the side of the outsole?
"

I'm referring to the angled slit you make on the face of the sole that hides the outseam stitches. Are you saying you just push it back and it stays there without cement?

Gordon
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#128 Post by jake »

Hey Gordon,

Sorry to butt-in, but I believe I can answer your question. I use Duall 88. It's a clear all-purpose cement.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#129 Post by dw »

Gordon,

OK...I've done this...hand stitching. In Archive 1-25 of this substopic you can see photos of a pair of alligator boots I did, as an example.

Now, I'm not saying it is impossible but it is pretty hard to do that if you figure on using a Landis Curved Needle Machine, for instance. If you are trying to stitch with a CN, cementing it back out of the way (if that's what you are referring to) might seem like a reasonable approach. But I can't speak to it. As I said I've only done this by hand.

If you are hand stitching on the other hand, you wet the "flap" and keep it out of the way by hand as you go. No cement required or wanted.

However, when the stitching is done the "flap" will need to be cemented back down...on that you are correct. I use press cement but all purpose will work, too.

Channeling in from the edge of the sole makes a beautiful job but it is labour intensive and almost no one does it anymore. In the photos above (as opposed to the ones in the Archive) the channel is cut...vertically...by the machine and at the same time as the curved needle machine is stitching. Closing that channel up simply requires a hammer and some elbow grease. Again, no cement (although I have experimented with press cement to seal the channel...to no great effect).

Hope that helps...we've so seldom talked about this technique on the forum you kind of caught me by surprise. Hope I didn't confuse things more...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#130 Post by dw »

Jake,

Do you channel in from the side on your outsoles? Always? You always stitch your outsoles by hand don't you?

BTW, it was me who butted in on your fine and succinct answer. Like I said, I was not sure what was being discussed...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on June 03, 2006)
gordy

Re: Outsoles

#131 Post by gordy »

DW wrote: "[...]the Archive) the channel is cut...vertically...by the machine and at the same time as the curved needle machine is stitching. Closing that channel up simply requires a hammer and some elbow grease. Again, no cement (although I have experimented with press cement to seal the channel...to no great effect). "

Right, a little more education, I didn't realize that's how it was done on a machine.

"I use press cement but all purpose will work, too. "

OK, thanks. I thought these being kind of rubbery they might make an invisible join difficult.

Jake wrote: "[...]I use Duall 88. It's a clear all-purpose cement."

Thanks Jake. It doesn't appear to be available here but it looks like we have an equivalent
Bondrite (C5005), although there might be others.

Thanks all.

Gordon
P.S. Do you think there's any demand for blood stained leather? Image
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#132 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

I ALWAYS handsew the outsole. I've gone back to creating the slanted channel, or flap, now. Like everything else in society, I'm trying to keep up. I've been experimenting with the slanted channel and curve needle. Taking off the channel knife on the curve needle and running it without thread, I've been pretty successful in creating my awl holes for handsewing. The slanted channel tends to keep my pressor foot deep in the channel while running the CN. Of course, awling your holes for handsewing is very time consuming and precise, so this technique speeds up the process of sewing outsoles.

Gordon,

D.W. got me started with Duall 88 back in 2000. I really like it because it's clear. I used Barge all purpose for 20 years before Duall. It's yellow in colour, and if you're not careful, leaves a "cement line" where you least desire it.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#133 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

P.S. On repair work, if I'm not replacing the welt, I usually "hand" awl the outsole. The welt already has holes, so I don't use the CN. There's a pic up above showing some of this work.
relferink

Re: Outsoles

#134 Post by relferink »

Found this documentary called ”the Shoemaker” it' about a Spanish shoemaker in 1969. Probably not all that relevant but I noticed about 5 minutes in he is stitching an outsole by hand as he is interviewed. Looks like he uses a curved needle to do so. When done he glues the channel, presumably with press cement. I don't think based on the setup shown that synthetic all purpose is something he has heard of.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4180740331936483586&q=the+shoemaker&pr=goog-sl
It uses Google video player, you may have to download it to watch.
It won't let me make a hyper link, just copy and past in your browser's address bar.

Rob


(Message edited by relferink on June 04, 2006)
gordy

Re: Outsoles

#135 Post by gordy »

Robert wrote: "When done he glues the channel, presumably with press cement."

Well I found it interesting, thanks for posting it.

It looked like he was sanding the channel before cementing which I thought was odd.

Gordon
relferink

Re: Outsoles

#136 Post by relferink »

Gordon,

I had to take another look at the video. I saw him do it but must not have registered in the brain. Hate when it happens and it's even worse to get reminded of it Image. Good catch on your part. Looks to me he is cleaning the channel of wax residue so the glue will hold. Unless he is reading The Crispin Colloquy from his new apartment with modern amenities such as electricity and Internet access we will never know for sure.

Rob
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#137 Post by jake »

I finally got back into the shop for some repair work. Here's some handsewing on a factory made boot. I'm not sure if a curve-needle could have gotten this close...maybe. This is actually easy when the awl holes are already present in the welt.
4180.jpg


Here's the sole showing the "angled" channel after closing with cement.
4181.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#138 Post by jake »

One more showing a new welt on a pair of my old work boots. This pic is a little fuzzy, but you can see any slight deviation in the line of stitches with this view. From the side, the stitching looks pretty darn straight. As I've said, getting the awl holes straight is the trick. I left this pic a little larger so you can see how "human" I am!
4183.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
gordy

Re: Outsoles

#139 Post by gordy »

Robert wrote: "[...]Looks to me he is cleaning the channel of wax residue so the glue will hold.[...]".

I wouldn't think that could be done without removing leather which I would have thought would spoil the join to some extent. Part of my rather mixed background had me repairing splits and breaks in wood. Removing any material from around the feather edges is an absolute no no. Maybe leather being more maleable is more forgiving.

If the wax is a problem it's making me think it's maybe worth protecting the channel somehow.

Jake wrote: "[...]As I've said, getting the awl holes straight is the trick.[...]!"

Thanks for the pics. This might be a dumb suggestion but what about holding a row of beads (as in a necklace) round the edge for a guide.

Gordon
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Outsoles

#140 Post by jake »

Gordon,

The "spacing" is not much of a problem. It's the "in" and "out" from the edge I'm talking about. This is due to the angle of the awl going through the welt/outsole. We're trying to hit the deepest part of the slanted channel on the sole side with our awl. When the thread is pulled through the awl holes, this angle can roll your stitches. This is what causes the "weaving" in and out of your stitch line.

I hope I didn't confuse you.
gordy

Re: Outsoles

#141 Post by gordy »

Jake wrote:
"The "spacing" is not much of a problem. It's the "in" and "out" from the edge I'm talking about. This is due to the angle of the awl[...]"

Thanks. Knowing why it happens has to be half way there to stopping it happening.

"I hope I didn't confuse you."

Not at all. If you hadn't said anything I'd just have assumed it was my incompetence. Now I've got an excuseImage

Cheers

Gordon
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#142 Post by dw »

Gang,

Here's a little "cran" that I discovered. I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but it has solved a problem that has bugged me for 35 years so I'm as excited as a gopher in loose dirt.

In the past when I have sewn the soles on, I have channeled the outsole while it was damp and closed the channel with a smooth-faced hammer and a bone burnisher (St. Hugh's bones).

The outsoles have always looked great...until the sole dried out completely. At which point the channel seemed to open up slightly and over time this got worse. It was never a gaping crevasse or anything like that...might not have been noticable to anyone but me. But it bugged me.

Recently I have been trying to cement the channel shut. Problem is, it's a messy job and not only is residue left on the outsole but the cement can very easily get on your hands and from there to the uppers. Since I have been focused on a "natural" forepart for some time, cement on the outsole is counter-productive because it forces me to naumkeg the outsole when I may not want to. And cement on the uppers...well, I won't go into that.

Anyway, the last two pair of boots I've made I tried using Hirschkleber to cement (glue really) the channel closed.

I close the channel up cleanly to rid the surface of the outsole of any wrinkles and then gingerly re-open the channel. Then I smear Hirschkleber (HK) in the channel and re-close it. Naturally the excess HK is squeezed out of the channel and it can be collected for re-use or wiped off the outsole. Because HK is water-based, a damp towel will clean any residue off the outsole, your tools, and/or the upper should you be so messy (like me).

The outsole is then rubbed to smooth everything (remember the outsole is still wet at this point) and set up to dry/temper...if you are pegging.

When the outsole is dry, the channel will remain closed and, on boots, any random "overages" can be removed when treeing.

Someone else may have a better idea or a better approach but this has worked nicely for me and added just that tiny little bit to the overall refinement of the finish.

Hope it helps someone...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
sorrell
6
6
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 pm
Full Name: Lisa Sorrell
Location: Guthrie, OK
Been Liked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#143 Post by sorrell »

I'm making a pair of rubber-soled work packers for my husband. I've always put some brass nails in the shank area rather than pegs since it's a rubber sole. BUT, it's a three quarter welt (sideseam to sideseam) so I'm starting to wonder if I need to nail there. Does it really need anything more in the shank area if it's three quarter welted?

Lisa
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#144 Post by dw »

Lisa,

My take would be that if there are no "hollows" in the shank area--the sole fits snug, everywhere, around the insole filler and shank cover--then a nail is not going to contribute much if anything to the structural integrity of the boot.

That said, I don't do many boots or shoes that are inseamed breast to breast so maybe someone else will have a better perspective.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
paul
8
8
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#145 Post by paul »

Lisa,

I don't think it's necessary to nail along the shank on this style. I haven't all the years I've done repairs, without any consequences.

As DW said, if all your layers are tight, without any hollows that can work their way to the edge and cause the edge to come unglued when the stitches become worn off, then you should be fine.

Whenever I've seen other repairman nail along the shank on a boot welted this way, I've thought it wasn't necessary.

Which rubber sole are you putting on? Vibram's stlye 269 Westerner looks really good on boots, no matter how they're welted because they are a little thinner in the shank area. A full thicknees sole in the shank can look too chunky to me.


On the subject of terminology, I've always called a boot "full welted" when inseamed this way (sideseam to sideseam), and 3/4 welted for inseams half way around, from behind the ball to behind the fifth met. But I've wanted to call a construcion 3/4 when welted from medial ball to lateral sideseam, though this construction doesn't seem to be common enough to have a "name". Go figure!

PK
j1a2g3

Re: Outsoles

#146 Post by j1a2g3 »

I justed glued my outersole to the bottom of my boot. I don't have time to stitch the outersole to the welt or peg it. I was wondering if I need to wet my outersole and welt thoroughly or just spray water onto them before I start stitching and pegging?

Thanks in advance, Joel
mike_kellar

Re: Outsoles

#147 Post by mike_kellar »

i just spray the welt and outsole with a spray bottle. It takes me a couple of days to hand sew my soles on (about an hour to a session), so I have to rewet them a couple of times. Doesn't seem to hurt anything, but I'm certainly no expert. The pros will help you more than I can.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Outsoles

#148 Post by dw »

Joel,

As for the stitching, yes, a simple re-wetting with a spray bottle will work fine. Wet the outsole only, the welt does not need to be re-wet--unless, of course, you're stitching the outsole by hand. And even then, be careful...not only will the wet welt pick up "tool marks" but it is much easier to "pop" a stitch when tightening it.

When it comes to pegging, neither a dry sole nor a wet sole will produce optimal results. I like to let the sole dry till it just comes back to colour. It may be said to be "tempered" at this point and it's roughly at the same stage as we would want sole leather to be if we were going to "hammer-jack" it.

The point is that, when you hammer the leather down around the driven peg, the leather will compress and harden, thus holding the peg more securely.

This will not happen with a too dry sole, and with a too wet sole, the leather will not only spring back as moisture from surrounding areas seeps back into the compressed area, but moisture will also seep into the peg...making it swell up. When everything dries, the peg will shrink from loss of moisture and will be then sitting in a too large hole.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on January 31, 2007)
j1a2g3

Re: Outsoles

#149 Post by j1a2g3 »

DW

Should I re-wet my outersole completely and then let it set for a few hours to day it out some?

I would have pegged and stitched it all at once but something came up and I had to let it sit for a day.

Thanks Joel
j1a2g3

Re: Outsoles

#150 Post by j1a2g3 »

Also, how close to the edge of your vamp do you trim your outersole?

Thanks Joel
Post Reply