Vertical fasteners

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Message
Author
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#76 Post by jesselee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:14 pm

Nat and DW

In my 45 years or so of pegging I have found it to be a superior method of sole attachment. The ease in repairing a pegged sole IMHO is lost to time but still exists in my shop. I see that you are approaching the matter sideways ie. as if repairing a welted boot or shoe. To do this one would have to replace the innersole and stitch and glue a piece covering the previously pegged upper, which is a moot point as why do it. The technique for repair as can be found on any repaired pair of boots or shoes with a pegged sole is to 'leave the sole alone'. Simply grind it down to a suitable thickness and apply the half-sole. You peg as usual and there is no worries about strength. This is a time tested truth to the superiority of pegging. The wheel is invented.
As for peg sizes, a 6/11 is a heeling and half-soling peg size. For first work a 4/11 or 5/11 is what y'all need, and so much less peg to grind off. Thinner pegs were used on expensive ladies and gentleman's boots and shoes in the mid to late 1800's. I prefer them. You can get away with one row easily at 6-8 to the inch.
Historical note. Some pegging machines could be adjusted for peg diameter by using a smaller awl. Height of pegs was also tuned by adjustment. The drawback of a tiny diameter peg is the slimness of peg and awl which are prone to breakage, thus the surviving sizes we have today.

2 cents from the Old School.
Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
homeboy
6
6
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Full Name: Jake Dobbins
Location: Mountain View, AR
Has Liked: 3 times
Been Liked: 4 times

Re: Vertical fasteners

#77 Post by homeboy » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:44 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Remember those stove-top boots I brought to last year's AGM? The ones nobody wanted to look at (big tear)? They were 10 years old...remember? Well, I resoled them 4 times before I had to finally replace the insole on the 5th resoling. I don't half-sole anything.

Are you implying that you would run your welt from breast to breast, or just continue from the 3/4 welt with a hidden stitch to the heel and around?

Now remember our old Buddy Cosimo Lucchese? He thought a 3/4 welt with a pegged shank was stronger. Any thoughts?

I'll be back one of these days with THUNDER! I miss you RASCALS!

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#78 Post by dw » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:02 pm

Jake,

I'd run the welt from breast to breast. What you do is cut your feather in about a half inch or more from the edge of the insole in the waist area. Then, as we do in making the beveled and fiddleback waist on shoes, you hand stitch the outsole in the waist area (using an outsole channel to completely hide the stitching) but the awl is run well under the edge of the insole as it penetrates the welt.And of course the outsole channel is set in from the edge too.

If you build the fiddleback it will be there. If you channel and stitch correctly you can bevel the edge of the outsole significantly. Voila!

As for Lucchese, I remember that well and perhaps he has a point when he said that in the stirrup a pegged shank would last longer than a welted shank. But having read that book many times I am not entirely convinced that "all things were equal." I'm not sure that he was creating the same fiddleback foundation in the shank for his welted boots as for his pegged boots. Maybe so maybe no...he isn't really clear on that point. But having done fiddleback shanks both ways, I suspect that, done correctly, there isn't much structural difference in that regard.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

janne_melkersson
5
5
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Full Name: Jan-Erik Melkersson
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#79 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:36 am

DW,
quote
What you do is cut your feather in about a half inch or more from the edge of the insole in the waist area

Here is a photo of Mr Delos cutting an insole, is this close to how you are doing it?
12824.jpg


I am doing it pretty much as Mr Delos on the medial side of the waist but on the lateal side I cut the feather much closer to the edge of the insole mostly not deeper in then 5 mm. I learnt the making from a German master and was told not to end up with the welt under the last. The reason was if you end up under will weaken the shoe and give less support. Bear in mind this was in an orthopeadic shop and function was more to strive for the fashion like narrow waists.

Anyway, therefore I cut the insole so I end up with the welt just shown from above and then when using the edge iron the welt and sole will end up just a bit under the last on the lateral side.



(Message edited by janne melkersson on February 10, 2011)

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#80 Post by dw » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:08 am

Janne,

When I make a fiddleback waist on shoes, I am doing something very similar. Maybe not so extreme. I generally (unless the customer specifies otherwise) trim my insoles further under particularly in the medial waist. I use the bottom paper that I get with every pair of lasts as a rough guide.

If I were going to make a sewn waist on a pair of cowboy boots, I would channel the insole in almost the same way as I would for a pair of fiddleback waisted shoes. So yes, it would look something like the Delos example you posted. But not quite so extreme. Image

When I'm done, I want the edge of the outsole to be no wider than the edge of the insole...so the welt, and all the stitching, is hidden.

Bear in mind that while I have done this very successfully on shoes, I've never tried this on boots--I was just speculating in response to Jake.

BTW, for what it's worth, Marcel's "German Welt" is fundamentally the same technique, isn't it?...just all around the shoe.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
homeboy
6
6
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am
Full Name: Jake Dobbins
Location: Mountain View, AR
Has Liked: 3 times
Been Liked: 4 times

Re: Vertical fasteners

#81 Post by homeboy » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:14 am

Jan,

WOW! Now THAT'S a "feather" in the waist. Thanks for posting! A picture is truly worth a thousand words.

Hope you are doing well!

Jake

janne_melkersson
5
5
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Full Name: Jan-Erik Melkersson
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#82 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:24 am

DW,
quote
BTW, for what it's worth, Marcel's "German Welt" is fundamentally the same technique, isn't it?

Yes, Marcel is using the same method. But the way he does it around the forpart I haven't seen before. I know Pelle made a pair with bevelled edges from breast to breast using the edge iron with a very spectacular result.

I am using the same method on cowboy boots and it works quite well. I sew the welt from breast to breast and the insole is prepared the same way as for a sewn bevelled waist but instead of sewing I peg it. It is the same way as St Crispin make their shoes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uQE51-FuZg
I offer this method on my shoes and boots that is semi-hand made i.e. the sole stitcher, sander and edge trimmer will be used.

janne_melkersson
5
5
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Full Name: Jan-Erik Melkersson
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#83 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:29 am

Jake,
You are welcome. Mr Delos really know how to prepare an insole.
I am doing pretty good thank you but it is a long way to go until I'm on the safe side but it looks good now.

janne_melkersson
5
5
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:00 am
Full Name: Jan-Erik Melkersson
Location: Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#84 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:39 am

DW

Here is a photo of an elastic side boot with a bevelled peged waist I made a couple years ago.
12826.jpg


As for how it holds up in wear I have not yet had any problem with it but on the other hand my clients don't work standing in stirrups.

(Message edited by janne melkersson on February 10, 2011)

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#85 Post by kemosabi » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:06 am

Jesse,
With your method; Are you pegging directly on top of the old pegs when you put on a new half-sole, or do you move the row inward a bit?

DW,
You say “no nails”. Do you peg your heel top lifts?

Another question for fans of the peg:
When replacing full soles with pegged heels is it normal to pry off the heel, same as with nailed heels or is the old heel carved off and a new one built?

BTW:
I'm finishing up my first pair of fully pegged boots and was a little worried that the forepart would be too stiff, based on what I've been reading but I pulled the lasts temporarily and tried them on. No problem! I tend to like stiffer soled boots anyway, but don't see much difference between these pegged ones and the other welted/inseamed boots I've made. The “old school style” of full pegs is really appealing.

-Nat

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#86 Post by dw » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:37 am

I say no nails in the boot. Toplifts are so varied, always being replaced, and the nails used to secure them do not enter the boot itself. That said, the heel stacks themselves are built up one layer at a time and pegged.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#87 Post by jesselee » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:02 pm

Nat,

No need to move the pegs in as by the time you need a new sole the pegs and leather have become one. The Civil War area standard was 3/8" in from the sole edge and 3/8" to the second row. This remained the standard for the 19th century, at 9 to the inch of a 4/11 or 5/11 peg. Given this measurement one could determine a measurement to peg in between the 2 rows for a half-sole I suppose, but that just makes more holes.
As a lover of pegged construction I stand by this.

Cheers,

JesseLee

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#88 Post by jesselee » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:22 pm

Nat,

To address your other questions. Nailing is bad because the steel interacts with the tannin in the leather, which turns black and makes a crusty hole. As for heel repair, simply grind the worn part down. Patch it with sole leather and peg it until you get to where you can level the heel and replace it with a new tap.
I always use square iron nails on the taps and have never had a problem with them being iron and ruining the leather. I can't explain that, but shoe tacks will certainly rust rot the leather.

Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#89 Post by kemosabi » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:49 pm

I'm using common steel(?) finishing nails in my heel top lifts. (bought at home depot). Do you know if these type nails will cause damage to my heel stacks?

Or another way to ask this: Do you guys use a special nail? I don't mean shape, but metal composition. I've used brass before, but wasn't sure if there was a compelling reason to only use brass instead of steel.

Thanks for the info guys. It means a great deal to me (and I'm sure many others) that you would take your time to answer questions.

-Nat

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#90 Post by kemosabi » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:52 pm

Just to make sure this is clear. My questions above are specific to nailing on heel top lifts only. Not about using nails in the shank etc.

Thx,

-Nat

lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 2 times

Re: Vertical fasteners

#91 Post by lancepryor » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:30 pm

Here is a pic of my insole from the pair I posted today. I didn't cut the holdfast in too far, since this last is pretty narrow on the bottom anyway. One thing I think I need to change, having looked at the Delos pic, plus the results on my finished pair, is to not swing the medial holdfast back out at the heel line, but rather to leave it pretty far into the middle of the insole.
12832.jpg


Lance

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#92 Post by dw » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:54 pm

Nat,

Just to be sure that we're on the same page, "top lifts" are the upper-most layer. Sometimes they are rubber, sometimes they are leather.

If I do a leather top lift, I use brass brads. If I do rubber, I generally use threaded nails made specifically for nailing on heels.

In the stack I do not use nails of any kind but my teacher used common finishing nails. He told me they would rust in the stack and, for that very reason, hold more firmly than any other means of attachment. I know that to be true but I don't think it is worth the damage done to the leather.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

proxy_posting
2
2
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:00 am
Full Name: proxy posting
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Vertical fasteners

#93 Post by proxy_posting » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:54 am

My story’s one that goes back a ways, bout an Oregon buckaroo.
Back when we was still runnin’ ‘em to market in Elko and Winnemucca too.

Now Oxbow Bob craved a new pair of boots when he come off the trail
For three long months he’d favored the left on account of a wayward nail.

He’d pointed the herd from the old "P" Ranch to where the Humbolt river flows.
There’s a bootshop down on mainstreet and that’s where Oxbow goes.

So he eases into the settee and wrenches off a boot
His socks are black from a winter back when he cleaned the lantern soot.

Now a smell like ancient mummies arose from the tattered wraps
And it makes the master stagger and a customer collapse.

Bob, he never notices the gentlefolk streamin’ out the door,
But braces his back for the other boot and leans into the chore.

His muscles knot, his face turns red and his eyes begin to swell.
He curses the damned old stinker in words I dare not tell.

But it’s the left boot boys, that won’t come off and when all is said and done,
That nail is deep in Oxbow’s flesh - he and the boot are one.

Now the master knows his duty and approaches with a sigh,
He’s seen this problem many times and he knows the reason why.

"That boot will have to be cut off," he says, "and maybe a part of yore heel,
Yer lucky you didn’t loose the leg to that chunk of rusty steel!"

Now Bob, he’s got a new nickname, the hands all call him Tilt.
And Francine, down at Mona’s, thinks he oughta have a bootheel built

That will straighten up his stature and allow old Bob to hold her,
As they waltz around the dance floor, without his chin hooked on her shoulder.

So beware of a boot that’s made with nails, what you want is the hardwood peg,
At least if it works its way into your foot, you’ll have the start of a wooden leg.

(Message edited by proxy posting on February 11, 2011)

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#94 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:03 am

What an awesome old timey account of the matter!

Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#95 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:18 am

Jesse

more

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#96 Post by jesselee » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:23 am

DW,

Thanks, I love that old stuff. Sure would be sweet put to music!

Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#97 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:02 pm

Thanks for your patience, we're closing in on it:

DW Quote: "If I do a leather top lift, I use brass brads. If I do rubber, I generally use threaded nails made specifically for nailing on heels. "

Your nails for rubber top lifts:
Are they also brass?
If not:
What makes these nails "specific" for heels?
What is it about these nails that keeps them from rotting (turning black) the heel leather?


Nice poem by the way. Did you write it?

-Nat

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#98 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:39 pm

Nat,

There are companies in the US called "finders" that sell all manner of shoe repair and leather working supplies. I assumed you knew that. Almost every major metropolitan area has one or two and some of these companies are now on the Internet.

Much of what they sell, including threads, nails, toplifts, cut outsoles, cements, etc., is applicable to making shoes, as well.

There are "rubber heel nails" of several different shapes, cuts, and lengths. Threaded nails are generally used for nailing on rubber toplifts that have washers embedded in them to secure the rubber.

But threaded nails are also used sometimes to nail on women's heels--the plastic or wood heel block. And some manufacturers even use threaded nails to nail leather or fiberboard heel stacks to a boot or shoe. Both of these last operations are done from the inside...the head of the nail seats itself on the insole.

Nothing keeps them from turning black. The black is a form of oxidation. Exposure to moisture will cause iron and steel to oxidize. Rust is an extreme version of this oxidation. Rust, like all oxidation, can be viewed as a slow fire. That's what causes the leather to eventually, depending on the amount of moisture the nail is exposed to, get dry and "burnt" and crumble.

Re: poem...yes, I wrote it. Along with several others which have either been published or are "on tour" even as we speak. I wrote them many years ago, however and lost interest when I realized I could never be another Rudyard Kipling. I simply don't live an interesting enough life.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Vertical fasteners

#99 Post by dw » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Nat,

PS...the background is all true. There was a "P" ranch (owned by Pete French) and at one time cattle drives began in Eastern Oregon and ended in the stockyards of central Nevada.

Mona's is a very famous "house of ill-repute" that first opened in the 19th century and still stands at its original location and is still in business in Elko.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: Vertical fasteners

#100 Post by kemosabi » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Maybe I can approach this from a different angle;

Here's how I've been building heels (I think same, or at least similar to you guys)

- Stack leather layers one at a time wood pegging and leveling each layer as I go. When I reach the last layer of leather, I apply a layer of rubber (top lift)using steel nails to finish off the stack. The only metal in my heels (or anywhere else, shank excluded) are these nails for the top lift.

I'm worried about the long-term durability of my heels, so whatever info I can get about avoiding the dreaded "leather rot"...

I like the no nails policy.
Did some full re-soles on factory boots awhile ago and was surprised how much metal was pierced through the insole. Looked like a cheese grater!

-Nat

Post Reply