Vertical fasteners

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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dmcharg
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Re: Vertical fasteners

#51 Post by dmcharg » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:43 pm

G’day All,
Being unhappy with commercial eyelets, and having had my ‘roo hide laces cutting into leather lacing holes, I decided to work out how to make my own out of brass.
A 100+yo shoe in our possession seems to be done with short lengths of tube, very neat on both sides.

The tools I use with the home made setting tool in the middle.
11788.jpg


Close up of setter. I stuck a length of mild steel rod into a power drill , cleaned it up with a file and put a blunt cone on one end of each.
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The ‘Anvil’, which will be put in the hole .
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In place.
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Marking off. Roughly 2 ½ - 3 times the thickness of the leather seems to work. The brass tubing comes from model aeroplane shops, in very precise sizes, each one exactly sleeving over the previous size. This is handy, as I did have an eyelet come off our 6yo’s shoe and the next size up was a tight fit in the stretched hole. These shops are also where I get the music wire for making my awls (if you don’t aneal it , it will destroy your file as you try to shape the awl’s tapers !).
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Pipe cutter. This one is sharper than my cheap red one. Blades can be sharpened by slipping it over a suitable bolt, tightening up a nut under it, placing it in a power drill and while spinning, touch up the edge with a fine file and/or carborundum paper.
11783.jpg


Debur the inside with whatever you’ve got that works. I sharpened the pipe reamer with a file, making the edges nice and square.
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Or the end of a file.

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Ready to go,
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Punch a hole slightly too small for the eylet, then widen it with a smooth tapered tool (my scratch awl). This helps prevent it stretching in use.
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Push the eylet in so equal amounts are top and bottom.
11778.jpg


Now the next part has a lot to do with feel.

Eylet on anvil,
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Setter in place, and hit with hammer Image. 2 or 3 strikes will probably do. You will be able to feel the tube give when you are using the right amount of force.
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Flip it over and do the same.
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The tubing is now flaired
11774.jpg

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Place it on a metal surface (back of my press stud setting anvil), and do another couple of strikes front and back. You’ll see a lot of change happening now.
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Do the final flattening with a clean hammer to your satisfaction.
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With, and without
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Done Image
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No sharp edges, almost the same thickness as the leather they are mounted in , and the final touch to a pair of shoes you made yourself.

Hope you enjoyed this and there weren’t too many photos etc.

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#52 Post by amuckart » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:46 am

Duncan,

Thank you! That is an excellent idea and a very useful tutorial for all sorts of applications needing eyelets, not just shoes.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#53 Post by paul » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:43 am

Great job Duncan!

I was curious when you showed your last pair and mentioned you had made your own eyelets.
I'm very impressed.

Nice presentation.

Paul

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#54 Post by gshoes » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:05 am

Wow!

Thanks for all of the pictures. Does this also work with copper and aluminum tubing. You make it look super easy. I have some tubing that I will give it a try on. I however have managed to mess up my eyelets. Do you have any advice for how to best remove a damaged eyelet so as to not destroy the leather.

Great tutorial.
Geri

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#55 Post by donrwalker » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:48 am

Nice job. If I might make a suggestion. A mallet instead of a hammer will help prevent your tools from belling on the end struck.

Don

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#56 Post by paul » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:57 am

Geri

http://www.ohiotravelbag.com/FlipBook/hardware%20catalog%20p210/index.html?pageN umber=1,

Check out Ohio Travel Bag Co.
On page 20 of their catalog, you find an eyelet remover tool, I think it T-256.
It's like a plier that pushes the old eyelet out thru a hole on the bottom of the tool. It's under $20, I believe, and should do the trick.

I've used them for years doing repairs.

Paul

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#57 Post by big_larry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:18 pm

Nice project! Thank you for the effort, to put the process into such a a logical and understandable tutorial.

Best wishes,

Larry Peterson

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#58 Post by dmcharg » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:58 pm

Thanks Everyone,
Geraldine, Dunno about aluminium but copper works fine and all three types of tubing can be got from the same place. For removing dud eyelets I use a drill bit (in a hand drill) that is wider than the hole but not quite as wide as the outside flange. Gently drill until the flange pops off as a doughnut then pull the rest of the eyelet out the bottom of the hole.

Donald, You're right about the hammer versus mallet, though you're not using a huge amount of force. The main reason I use a hammer is that I like the precise feed back I get when striking (I've used both for this).


Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#59 Post by dmcharg » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:30 pm

OK, NOW let’s make some shoelaces.

The brass tubing I used for this was 3/32” diam. x 3 feet long. Being too small for my pipe cutters, I used a Dremel-like tool and its tiny cutting disks. Abrasive disk dust (like most dust really) is not a good thing to breathe in, so taping a length of lightweight vacuum hose with the neck of a softdrink bottle jammed in the end takes care of that. Piece of cardboard is taped on the end to direct the suction.
11808.jpg

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As the cutters rotation throws debris to the right, having the vac. nozzle off to the side gives it more time/space to suck it up.

Firm steady grip

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Fine detail grip.
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And of course, safety glasses too.
Anyway, enough O.H.&S… back to the task at hand…

I made the ends 5/8” long each, but also marked off the ½” point for placement in the flaring jig.

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And cut
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I use a spherical diamond bur (from a really cheap ‘dremel’ accessory set) in a hand-held pin vice (though mounted in a hand drill should be fine) to de-burr the inside edge.
11802.jpg


Out of some music wire (see previous post) I made a flaring tool , with a lemon shaped cross section (no sharp edges).

Face on.

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And edge on

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I drilled a matching hole in a piece of wood, then sawed a fine slot from the edge of the block and through the hole so that when it’s mounted in a bench vice it will clamp onto the tube without distorting it.
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The tube is put in to the ½” mark…
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and the flaring tool is seated in and, with gentle pressure, the drill handle is turned.
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Don’t try to get a large taper or you may split the tube.
The ribbon I used for the Balmoral order was Gros Grain. I cut a 2” taper on the ends. Make sure you cut the taper in from both sides and that the point is in the middle. eg. > (Though a much longer point of course Image ). Being synthetic (or mostly) I then scorched the edges with a smooth quick movement to stop it from unravelling with the next step.
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Feed the long point through the tube until you can get a hold of the tip and pull it through. Strong grip with your fingers required here.
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Take note in the early stages of the pull how the main body of the ribbon is entering the tube. I push down the centre and encourage the edges to roll over the top (See next photo just underneath the hammer head. Sorry it’s not clearer).

Now gently tap the tubing ‘half’ flat to hold tight.
11794.jpg


If you wish, cut off the end with a small excess and remove the weft threads with a sharp point, and fluff up the remainder with your fingers.
11793.jpg


Done. And materials wise, cheaper than buying commercial ones with little plastic ends. If you find that the tubing used for the eyelets is a little too close to the width of the lace ends (and it jams when pulling it through), hold the lace end on its edge on an anvil, and gently tap the 'corners' of the flair, reducing the width slightly. This happened to me on the featured pair.
11792.jpg



And on the finished item. Handmade shoe, handmade eyelets and handmade laces.
11791.jpg



Hope you liked it, and all the best

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#60 Post by lancepryor » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:26 am

I am having trouble getting my pegs to actually perform their intended function -- holding the 'rand' in place. Because it is pretty flexible and thin, I am finding that the leather simply comes off the top of the peg.

Can anyone give me some pointers on how to successfully peg a rand? I am using an awl that is much smaller than the peg, so I don't think that is the problem.

Should I be pegging damp leather, hoping it will tighten up around the peg as the leather dries? How should I get the top of the peg to really lock onto the rand?

Any thoughts would be welcome. I don't want to have to use nails, but I also don't want my shoes to come apart!

Thanks,
Lance

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#61 Post by dw » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:52 am

Lance,

I make the heel seat rand as thick as the welt. I am of the opinion that the rand should appear as a continuation of the welt.

If the rand is that thick the pegs should hold.

That said, I wouldn't rely on the pegs to hold if you're putting a lot of pressure on the rand. You're right, the rand isn't thick enough to hold the pegs under stress.

I might note that a little "peening"...such that the top of the peg "mushrooms" a bit...will help. Also try pegging at a greater frequency and in two rows--one row driven straight down, the other at an opposing angle.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Vertical fasteners

#62 Post by romango » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:42 am

Lance,

Are you gluing the rand down prior to pegging?

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#63 Post by dearbone » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:31 am

Lance,

What kind of leather are you using for rand? if it is chrome leather rand the pegs are not gonna like it because the fibers are dead and wouldn't grip the pegs,this construction is favorite with Italian shoe makers around here at least,but they tack the rand very close distance and use right length tacks so as to clinch to the insole just a little,that means probably full plated last bottom.

Since the idea behind the rand is to make the shoe forepart flat for better result in cementing/attaching why not use a thin veg tan or chrome tan mid sole and than take some leather of the middle,just a thought.

Nasser

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#64 Post by lancepryor » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:46 pm

Rick:
Yes, I do glue it using all purpose cement.

Nasser:

I used some hard rolled horse butt, since it is about the same thickness as my welt and it is quite firm, which I like. I believe the horse butt is veg tanned.

Lance

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#65 Post by dw » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:53 pm

I never cement mine. I make my heel seat rands by cutting a strip if insole shoulder or horse strip about an inch wider or perhaps a bit more. I skive one edge. Then I wet it thoroughly and notch it and bend it into a horseshoe shape. I let it dry and it generally fits near-as-nevermind.

But I have been thinking about using the inseaming stitches in the heel seat area and perhaps a short length of waxed end to lace the rand in firmly before I peg it. I don't know if anyone else does it (or did it) that way but it seems like a natural.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#66 Post by jon_g » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:36 pm

Lance,

I'm using about a 3mm soling leather for my welts and rands, both the same width. It's not super hard but it is soling. The rand is soaked, then skived and then pegged around the heel. The only place it seems like it ever could fall off the pegs is right where the rand and the welt overlap and that gets cemented anyway. No need to cement it. Give it a try it really is amazing to see that strip shape itself around the heel. Maybe try brushing a little water on the ends of the pegs before you trim them, to swell and tighten them.

Good luck

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#67 Post by lancepryor » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:24 pm

Jon:

Where do you get that 3mm soling leather? Are you able to bend it around the heel without cutting notches?

DW:

That is basically what I do, with horse strip. I think Nasser may have been the one to show the method of shaping it before drying it.

Thanks,
Lance

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#68 Post by janne_melkersson » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:44 am

Lance,
I don't use a rand on my shoes and boots. If a bevel waist is ordered I sew the welt from heel breast to heel breast and then I let the sole go all the way without any rand. Since the welt will be split down to half from ball to heelbreast the crossover will be invisible when using the waist iron.

On square waist I don't use a rand either. I use a piece of leather at the same substance as the welt and the pattern is the same as the heel lifts, covering the whole heel area. I cement the "rand" piece put the sole on and pegg throug both layers.

(Message edited by janne melkersson on December 17, 2010)

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#69 Post by jon_g » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:49 am

Lance,

Like many shoe related items in Canada, I use Warkoff. They sell an American/Mexican soling leather that has some good uses. They also sell a Belgian Diamond soling leather that's pretty hard. I'm using it for outsoles.

By putting a peg in and then pulling the rand a little you can shape it, drop in another peg, repeat the process. Use your hammer lots, you won't need the notches. It's one of the processes that I really enjoy, like sewing the heel seat. It looks great, but as the shoemaker you're the only one who will ever see it.

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#70 Post by kemosabi » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:11 am

One of the things I really like about the colloquy is that newbies get to ask newbie questions… So here goes;

Lately I've been intrigued with the idea of using smaller gauge pegs. So far, most of my experience is with 6/11, spaced 10 per inch. (Pretty much the standard as far as I understand it). I'm considering trying pegs about half that size spaced 20 per inch or so, maybe even smaller.

Is there a disadvantage to using smaller pegs other than the extra time it takes?

Historically; was this only used for fine shoes or were boots sometimes done this way also?

If I pegged an entire boot sole like this; Am I asking for trouble?

Regards,
-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#71 Post by dw » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:53 am

Nat,

I can't verify that 10 to the inch is a standard (it's mine) or that 6/11 pegs are the the best size. I've seen all kinds of pegs and frequencies.

The one thing I am convinced of, however, is that although a greater frequency with smaller pegs looks really terrific, it doesn't do the shoe or boot much good.

If I take an outsole off a pair of pegged boots, I find that the vamp and the insole have been perforated and that those holes tend to remain open.

Now, there's no way I am going to put a new set of outsoles on that pair of boots and peg back into the same holes...even if I could somehow close the holes up sufficiently to hold the new pegs. Simply because I'm pegging blind at that point.

But there is a chance that between the hammering of the insole that takes place when a new outsole is mounted, and the space between the pegs/perforations, my new pegs will go into "virgin" leather.

If the frequency is increased, both the vamp and the insole will just be perforated more closely and the chances of achieving a strong and secure re-sole diminish quickly.

Unless you're making strictly for show, I would say that more is less in this case...as it usually is.

As an aside, I wish that I could instill in every student I take, and every shoe/bootmaker who wants to listen, the notion that we don't make shoes just to collect the selling price and then wash our hands of them. There is always another day, and always a consequence to every decision...be it regarding technique or materials...that we make. What many fail to realize is that a year, two years, ten years down the road they are still ours reflecting our judgment and our skills.

I like pegging...in its place--it's traditional on Western boots. But it is not now, and never will be, the best long term solution to shoe construction.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Vertical fasteners

#72 Post by kemosabi » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Thanks DW, for your experienced advice.
Never re-soled a fully pegged boot before, so I didn't even consider the long-term.

Is that why most fully pegged are only single row around the toe instead of two row?

With your boots; How many re-soles will they survive, before the vamp needs to be repaired?

I realize this has a lot to do with what kind of leather the vamp is made from. Seems like veg-tan would take the abuse better than chrome. Is that true?

-Nat

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#73 Post by homeboy » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:30 pm

Dee-Dubb,
I like pegging...in its place--it's traditional on Western boots. But it is not now, and never will be, the best long term solution to shoe construction.


Ok.....you left me hanging.......tell me, what is? You know you shouldn't say something like that! It brings me out of the SHADOWS!

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#74 Post by dw » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:58 pm

Nat,

I double-row peg around the forepart on my full pegged boots. But I also run a half sole which I peg very close to the edge of the insole...one row...and then double-row peg the outsole somewhat inset from that single row in the half sole. The trick is to have the pegs in the half sole only just barely pass through the insole and the pegs in the outsole only penetrate the half sole. Then you can remove the outsole many times and never have to disturb the pegs in the vamp margin.

As for how many resoles? I'd say four or five before you start worrying.

Can't say which...veg or chrome...would be better. Probably half a dozen of one six of the other.

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(Message edited by dw on February 09, 2011)

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Re: Vertical fasteners

#75 Post by dw » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:10 pm

Heckfire Jake! You need to pay closer attention.Image I am always asking the most awkward questions and making he most outrageous statements just to draw folks out. Problem is no one responds...not even when I'm genuinely looking for an answer. It's like telling a risque joke in church--nuthin' but silence.

I'd still do it, though, if it brought you back to the forum more often.

As for "what is?" well, in my opinion, hand welted and hand stitched is. I used to think that the only way to make that high fiddleback shank that is so characteristic of cowboy boots was to peg them. But I do believe I could make a pair such that you couldn't hardly tell the difference and use nothing but welting and stitching.

The main thing is that all things being equal, you can't repair a pegged shank boot as many times as you can repair a welted shoe or boot.

And for me, the old argument that it will last longer than the life of the uppers don't hold water. As a maker you can't assume that unless somewhere deep inside you know you're giving the customer crappy leather.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on February 09, 2011)

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